gammaxgoblin, I do not know of any sweetners other that Sucralose being used in juice due to heat stability...neither sugar nor stevia have the same stable ability. I have known a couple of DIY'rs that tried to use sugar as a sweetener and found that the coils were distroyed in less than a ml of use...when you burn sugar gummy caramel is the result. I will have to see if they would be willing to try using liquid stevia and report back
Are you worried about the flavorings we inhale?
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Gamma, there are people using liquid stevia I think. Do a search in the DIY forum.
I'm not overly concerned about diacetyl in flavorings. Many flavoring houses have done away with it but there is a chance to come across it in butter, cream, vanilla and rarely fruit flavorings in very small amounts. They are aware of it, but WE are the ones using flavorings that were developed for food. Of course they'd like to cater to us from a business standpoint but we're not the main income for them.
Research and educate yourself and then make your own decisions. Like Bob Chill said, we are the guinea pigs but that doesn't mean we go into this blind. Stopping smoking is a huge accomplishment for most of us. Huge. Health benefits are almost immediate. Many of us will step down our nic until we stop vaping. Long term effects may never be properly and scientifically known. I for one am OK with that.
OP, go read on some of the flavoring sellers and manufacturers websites. The Perfumers Apprentice has an article on diacetyl, the Baker...ah I can't remember, it's Russian, has the amounts of it in their flavors. The info is out there.
I'm not overly concerned about diacetyl in flavorings. Many flavoring houses have done away with it but there is a chance to come across it in butter, cream, vanilla and rarely fruit flavorings in very small amounts. They are aware of it, but WE are the ones using flavorings that were developed for food. Of course they'd like to cater to us from a business standpoint but we're not the main income for them.
Research and educate yourself and then make your own decisions. Like Bob Chill said, we are the guinea pigs but that doesn't mean we go into this blind. Stopping smoking is a huge accomplishment for most of us. Huge. Health benefits are almost immediate. Many of us will step down our nic until we stop vaping. Long term effects may never be properly and scientifically known. I for one am OK with that.
OP, go read on some of the flavoring sellers and manufacturers websites. The Perfumers Apprentice has an article on diacetyl, the Baker...ah I can't remember, it's Russian, has the amounts of it in their flavors. The info is out there.
I support your decision as well.
Different moats for different boats. Gas prices may vary. lol
Nope, not in the least do I worry about Vapeing flavoring. We're all gonna die someday anyways, and I highly suspect Vapeing well not cause me to grow an extra finger, ear, buttock, liver etc etc
Be Happy and Vape On!
Be Happy and Vape On!
I'm not concerned about it in the least. I smoked for 25 years and didn't worry about all the known dangerous chemicals I was inhaling, so I'm not going to start sweating something that is assumed to be orders of magnitude safer than smoking.
Then again, I also eat processed food, red meat, GMOs, drink diet soda, etc. I guess I just like to live life on the edge.
Then again, I also eat processed food, red meat, GMOs, drink diet soda, etc. I guess I just like to live life on the edge.
Inhaling PG, VG, and Nicotine can be not only assumed, but backed up with science to be absolutely safer than smoking. No assumptions can be made in regards to inhaling food flavorings. We can't and should not assume it's safe. I'm all for flavorings, but I think every new vaper needs to understand fully that it is a potential risk. Everyone has the right to choose, but they need to really understand that they're a guinea pig and make that CHOICE. Instead of everyone making them think it's probably safe.
What would've happened if those plant workers were required to wear respirators? What if that one guy hadn't eaten 2 bags of microwave popcorn a day (and probably purposefully inhaled the fumes/steam) for 10 years? We would have no idea that diacetyl causes bronchiolitis obliterans (scarring the lungs). Then we would possibly have many vapers in 5-10 years time who get the same permanent lung damage from butter rum and other flavors. I did not quit so I could die or need a lung transplant in 10-20 years.
It's a fallacy to think it's safer just because smoking is so harmful. The community is totally setting itself up for failure. Most want to think it's so safe and push that it's safe because no one wants e-cigs or flavors banned. So there are juices with tons of flavors and this general attitude of 'it's gotta be better than smoking'. I'm certain that within 10 years there will be plenty of vapers with lung damage from certain flavorings. Teens/young adults who never smoked will make it clear that it's not from previous smoking. Then they will REALLY crack down on us and try to indiscriminately ban flavors.
I'm not against flavors, I use flavors. My only isssue is that new vapers should not be told how safe it is just because we're scared of regulations. How utterly selfish and self-defeating when 10ml/day, sub-ohm, +20% flavoring vapers end up with a lung disease in the future. I'm not bashing anyone here, but if you started vaping to save your health, you should assume flavorings are just as dangerous as smoking (for now).
Hypothetically speaking: If there is any other flavoring (chemical) that damages the lungs like diacetyl, then that flavoring would be more dangerous to inhale than cigarette smoke. Generally speaking, at least many people can smoke for 20-60 years before developing problems.
Everyone can play it off like this is nothing to worry about, but I think any of us would be devastated to develop a lung disease or other health problem after making this switch to a 'healthier' life. A glass of wine or beer a day might be ok for your body, but that doesn't mean you can down a 1/5 of vodka a day. Unflavored is without a doubt harm reduction, flavored is unknown and can NOT be assumed to be safer than smoking or anything else. [/unpopular opinion]
<---Not a plant, not an ANT, just playing devils advocate, because logical fallacies aren't facts. Either be proud of your guinea pig status and acknowledge the possibility of needing a new lung within 20 years, or do something different. This post is directed towards anyone/everyone, not just you Cactus. I know I won't be making friends with these posts, but don't hate me too much. I love you guys/gals
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I can't totally buy into this. True, we are guinea pigs and we don't know. And the unknowns do mostly boil down to the flavoring. I think everyone would be wise to avoid diacetyl. That's based on the evidence. But there is mounting evidence that e-cigs are safer than analogs. The Drexel review examined levels of known carcinogens, and concluded that the levels in our vapors were "not concerning" (they were certainly better then analogs!). Once again, there are some things in which there are no known safe levels. Like mentioned above, practically everything is toxic as far as toxicology is concerned. So "not concerning" may be debatable. But the idea that vaping might be just as dangerous as analogs is losing ground, scientifically speaking, and for good reason. Have you seen the levels of toxic chemicals in cigarettes? These aren't mildly toxic either. We're talking benzene, formaldehyde, etc. The bar is not very high. Also, quitting smoking and switching to vaping has IMMEDIATE health benefits, particularly for your lungs. And this still doesn't include the personal benefits such as the return of smell and taste and the benefits to our budgets (if we want). Still, vaping will never be able to claim 100% safe. Not now, not ever... as long as we want our nicotine. Nicotine is a stimulant that can have effects on the heart, and is not recognized as safe for pregnant women. But then again, lots of things aren't. But I guess I should get to the point I want to make. Ignoring the "could" is not going to get the movement anywhere. The research has not been completed yet, and everyone has an interest in knowing what we put in our bodies. I still believe it is ultimately our right to choose what we do with our own bodies, but I'd much rather KNOW what I'm putting in my body. And on top of that, I think its better if we can show non-vapors that we are educated about what we vape, so maybe they have more confidence in what we are doing. Like it or not, our fate is in their hands. If you don't care for the sake of your body, at least care for the sake of the hobby.
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Diacetyl (IUPAC systematic name: butanedione or butane-2,3-dione) is an organic compound with the chemical formula (CH3CO)2. It is a volatile, colourless liquid with an intensely buttery flavor. It is a vicinal diketone (two C=O groups, side-by-side) with the molecular formula C4H6O2. Diacetyl occurs naturally in alcoholic beverages and is added to some foods to impart a buttery flavor.
OSHA:
Chemical manufacturers and importers of food flavorings containing one percent or more diacetyl must convey information in the health effects section of an FFCD MSDS regarding the human health effects; i.e., that NIOSH has reported that employees exposed to butter flavorings containing diacetyl are at risk of developing occupational lung diseases and that in one instance, similar illnesses have been found among employees producing butter and vanilla flavorings containing diacetyl. Finally, these MSDSs must convey that contact with liquid or vapors can cause irritation to the skin, eyes, nose, and throat.
Chemical manufacturers and importers of any food flavoring containing one percent or more diacetyl must convey in the health effects section of the FFCD MSDS the hazard information regarding diacetyl from the animal studies previously discussed. They must also consider other available health effects information for all components greater than one percent, convey that information on the FFCD MSDS, and include appropriate hazard warnings on the labels.
OSHA:
Chemical manufacturers and importers of food flavorings containing one percent or more diacetyl must convey information in the health effects section of an FFCD MSDS regarding the human health effects; i.e., that NIOSH has reported that employees exposed to butter flavorings containing diacetyl are at risk of developing occupational lung diseases and that in one instance, similar illnesses have been found among employees producing butter and vanilla flavorings containing diacetyl. Finally, these MSDSs must convey that contact with liquid or vapors can cause irritation to the skin, eyes, nose, and throat.
Chemical manufacturers and importers of any food flavoring containing one percent or more diacetyl must convey in the health effects section of the FFCD MSDS the hazard information regarding diacetyl from the animal studies previously discussed. They must also consider other available health effects information for all components greater than one percent, convey that information on the FFCD MSDS, and include appropriate hazard warnings on the labels.
CAPELLA: Do any of your flavorings contain Diacetyl ?
We do not use Diacetyl in ANY of our flavorings.
Perfumer's Apprentice: The flavor chemical Diacetyl, which has been shown to be dangerous to inhale,
is NOT an ingredient in any of our products.
We do not use Diacetyl in ANY of our flavorings.
Perfumer's Apprentice: The flavor chemical Diacetyl, which has been shown to be dangerous to inhale,
is NOT an ingredient in any of our products.
The problem really isn't diacetyl though. The question becomes: Are there any other flavorings (chemicals) that can cause inflammation or scarring of the lungs?
We don't know. I would say it's a safe bet that at least one more of the many different chemicals used as flavors will be found to be dangerous to inhale or cause health problems. There are so many variables though. The relatively few workers who got 'popcorn lung' were healthy non-smokers. Are we at less risk being ex-smokers? After our lungs clear up, do we then have an increased or decreased chance of having problems inhaling these chemicals? These are variables that need to be looked at.
We can clone animals and organs, couldn't scientists just grow a bunch of lung tissue and keep them in containers of vaporized flavoring compounds to look for any negative effects? I would think so...with proper funding...
Something I'd like to look up is if the diacetyl scarred their lungs. If so, was it burning the tissue, eating through it, etc? Some scientists somewhere should at least be able to look at what inhaled diacetyl does to the lungs and then guess which other flavor compounds might do the same thing. This should have been done a few years ago
edit: wow, THIS is interesting. I thought they could already do that. Maybe some of the pollutants they should test is inhaled food flavorings...
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I for one, am glad that if I end up oxygen I will not be smoking too.
um, i just read that Diacetyl occurs naturally in alcoholic beverages....
apparently its due to fermentation..
so does that mean ethanol itself has Diacetyl in it...??? or am i way off the mark.?
i'm just worried as my ejuice contains ethanol as a base.
....
worried?; well now i am. but i worry about everything.
i stick to organic flavourings in e-juice.... but kinda ...... Diacetyl is an 'organic' flavouring..
apparently its due to fermentation..
so does that mean ethanol itself has Diacetyl in it...??? or am i way off the mark.?
i'm just worried as my ejuice contains ethanol as a base.
....
worried?; well now i am. but i worry about everything.
i stick to organic flavourings in e-juice.... but kinda ...... Diacetyl is an 'organic' flavouring..
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