Ask Extract Companies to remove ACETOIN, ACETYL PROPIONYL

[Cookster]

Where's the link for lab results? This post is example of proper testing. Just a FYI

For those that DIY We offer 24 certified flavors

E-Flavors by NicVape DIY Flavor Concentrates

E-Flavors™ by NicVape
NicVape is pleased to announce our new product line, “E-Flavors”, flavor concentrates that have been engineered specifically for the vaping industry.
• Independently Tested to be Diacetyl & Acetyl Propionyl (2,3-Pentanedione) FREE!
• Need only 1/2 as much flavoring as other brands.
• Certificates of Analysis available on “NICTRACE”, located on the NicVape Website.

Table 1: NicVape, Inc. E-flavor Analysis Results; 7/11/14


Concentrations (µg/ml )

Flavor Description Diacetyl 2,3-Pentanedione
Root Beer < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
French Vanilla < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Bubble Gum < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Vanilla < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Lime < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Clementine < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Grape < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Apple < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Strawberry < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Strawberry < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Cinnamon < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Cinnamon < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
tobacco Sweet < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Watermelon < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
tobacco < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Green Apple < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Robust Cigar < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Raspberry < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Peppermint < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Turkish Tobacco < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Orange < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Spearmint < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Dark Raspberry < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND
Crème De Menthe < 0.340 ND < 0.405 ND

* ND: Non Detect or analytical result below the MDL and is less than (<) the reported value. Summary of Method:
A measured volume of sample is combined with a volume of acetonitrile. A known amount of internal standard (Butanedione-d6) is added and the vial is capped and mixed thoroughly to combine. An aliquot is then analyzed quantitatively against a linear calibration curve using a GC/MS equipped with a mass selective detector. In this analysis, the limit of detection is 0.34 ug/mL for 'Diacetyl' and 0.41 ug/mL for '2,3-Pentanedione'.

The Full Test results for all 24 are available here: https://drive.google.com/#folders/0B0JrO25MOsG5d18yNElmeXhfMEE

Starting in October 2014 with our New e-liquid product lines NicVape will begin testing every batch of final e-liquid product produced and provide access to the public through our Online transparency application NicTrace : NicTrace
Customers can go to the Nictrace System and enter the Batch ID from their NicVape product and see the 3rd party testing results
E-Flavors by NicVape DIY Flavor Concentrates
New DIY Flavor Concentrate Line created by NicVape.
nicvape.com
LikeLike · · Share

I meant that they were posting which flavors had the diketones, for those that want to avoid them. They also have flavors that they state are diketone free...nothing near as exhaustive as your post, simply another vendor offering options for those that are concerned.

 

[Sdh]

I meant that they were posting which flavors had the diketones, for those that want to avoid them. They also have flavors that they state are diketone free...nothing near as exhaustive as your post, simply another vendor offering options for those that are concerned.

Okay, I get it and thanks for the FYI However, that is going by word of mouth and can no longer be noted as trustworthy information supplied by flavoring re-packers/vendors/etc. No offense to them but unless they can back up their "word" it doesn't really count anymore. Lab reports should suffice for full disclosure.

 

[Boletus]

Okay, I get it and thanks for the FYI However, that is going by word of mouth and can no longer be noted as trustworthy information supplied by flavoring re-packers/vendors/etc. No offense to them but unless they can back up their "word" it doesn't really count anymore. Lab reports should suffice for full disclosure.

If a "lab report" does not contain the name and credentials of the lab that performed the analyses, it proves nothing. Just saying, I've seen a lot of Certificates of Analysis and other analytical data, but I have yet to see a single vaping-related document that provides the name and credentials of the lab, so i take them all with a big grain of salt.

[edit] After following the Google links, I see that the NicVape documents do provide the lab name. Kudos to them for transparency.

 

[Crunktanium]

One could still send in a modified sample. I doubt that's the case here but it's is a possibility.

When millions of even potentially billions of dollars are on the line companies will do what they need to do to protect profits.

 

[crxess]

Why is it all these issues are always a battle, a problem unsolvable.

Because many that get the information only absorb pieces. Then they run around sharing their Pieces - Not the full information.
So, we instantly have those(that did study) saying we have a choice and those with pieces yelling Ban it all, get rid if it.

Lead paint never hurt anyone that did not eat it.(kids) so it was banned.
DDT is extremely hazardous, yet managed properly - was extremely effective.

I don't disagree with getting things out of the hands of the common consumer................. Yet most under sink storage is a Kill Zone.

 

[Racehorse]

Everyone knows or should know by now that buttery flavors are bad. Yet instead of avoiding them people want them modified and regulated by the nanny state.

So AESMA, ECITA, etc. are the nanny state?

I was under the impression that vapers just want testing on the eliquids they are paying big bucks for, and like to go with companies that can provide the tests.

I believe Dr. F. said that quite specifically, that no eliquid maker can tell you what isn't in their eliquid UNLESS they provide a test.

So, many consumers are and will be asking for that.

Sorry, I see no problem with that at all, and will continue to push for that, and only shop with those suppliers that seem to care enough about my needs to provide me with such tests.

If they can't spend $200 to test my juice, I can't spend $200 on juice with them in an order.

 

[Crunktanium]

Also nic is posion so lets ban all nicotine, patches, gum and cigs since all contain this highly toxic poison. And while we are at it bleach fumes are highly toxic so lets ban the sale and use of bleach by consumers. There should be a law in fact that anyone who goes near bleach has to wear a $500 breathing hood.

Ban everything and we can save us from ourselves!!

 

[Racehorse]

Because of course we need to protect ourselves from all those known carcinogens that one can easily avoid with vaping.

Easily?

For some people, this is a new issue.

But many of us were calling companies, emailing them, a year ago, trying to find out what our ejuice and/or flavorings contained, and were met with quite a lot of resistance, incomplete answers, or actual misinformation. etc.

There was and is nothing at all easy about it. If Dr. F. and others had not put the issue right out in front of everyone's noses, I daresay some of us would still be on the merry-go-round of "trying to get answers."

I was grateful to the researchers for making it crystal clear: Ask for a Test. Otherwise, you don't know.

 

[Crunktanium]

I was under the impression that vapers just want testing on the eliquids they are paying big bucks for, and like to go with companies that can provide the tests.

If they can't spend $200 to test my juice, I can't spend $200 on juice with them in an order.

Not all juice cost big bucks and many mom and pop shops (most B&M stores barely turn a profit) make less than $1 a bottle. You're trying to lump all juice together just like saying all people of a certain race (pick one) are violent, stupid, ugly or whatever. Imagine you have a small shop and sell about 300 bottles a month of your 20+ juices for around $1/ea profit and had to pay $200/ea for testing.

So lets see that would be around $300 a month profit (before taxes) and over $4000 for testing. It will take these shops over one full years worth of juice sales just to break even if they don't add any new flavors. Which means stores will simply cut down on flavor selections which results in we the consumers having less choices. The same for premium lines they just wont even chance it knowing some flavors will hit and some will miss leading to unnecessary costs. And not to mention FDA fees if things do become regulated will be piled on top of the standard lab testing fees.

What you propose basically hands the entire juice industry over to someone like big tobacco, walmart or some very rich people who could honestly give a hoot about your safety. Maybe a few large companies like Five Pawns will survive but the days of affordable juice will be no more. The selections will be limited to mostly tobacco and a select few fruits at best. Anything exotic with more then a hand full of flavors will no longer be offered. But hey your $50 /30ml bottle of juice will be free of all that bad stuff so kudos on your winning your crusade.

 

[Crunktanium]

But many of us were calling companies, emailing them, a year ago, trying to find out what our ejuice and/or flavorings contained, and were met with quite a lot of resistance, incomplete answers, or actual misinformation. etc.

Sorry to hear that but I never had problems finding out if my flavors contained Acetoin or Acetyl Propionyl. If you deal with shady vendors then it sounds like you might need to regulate yourself. This is why I shopped at WL from day one and spent many hours discussing things with John before I started mixing up my homemade Diacetyl soups.

And this is why friends come to me because none of the stores around me have a clue what they are selling or how to mix flavors. I know one shop owned by a guy who has been selling juice for about three years. He gives me all this bull*** about how complex his latest stuff is and how it's worth a premium. But then come to find his complex flavors are One Stop DIY house flavors at 10% in glass bottles being sold at a 25% premium over his FW and CAP flavors. People lie to protect their personal interests it's nothing new and it will always be this way.

Sounds to me like you just don't do biz or talk to the right people. So basically it took you forever to find someone to assure you custard or butter notes had bad stuff in them and yet you still don't know what's in those flavors. Other then Acetoin or Acetyl Propionyl which has been out of the bag for longer then a year as I can recall. The real question was not if certain flavors contained bad stuff but rather if the bad stuff was really all that bad. And some experts believe it's really bad while others not so much. I will wait for the long term testing that nobody is going to do anytime soon since they know it would easily end any and all debate.

 

[Racehorse]

If you deal with shady vendors then it sounds like you might need to regulate yourself.

I guess the vendors in the study were all shady then, since over 70% of them who said they didn't contain diacetyls tested positive for them. I daresay that covers a lot of vendors.

If you think there is not much profit in ejuice then you don't actually do the DIYing you say you're doing. Because we all know how much it costs to make 30ml of juice. So, anyone who is only making $1 a bottle profit is clearly operating under a very unusual business model.

Sounds to me like you just don't do biz or talk to the right people. So basically it took you forever to find someone to assure you custard or butter notes had bad stuff in them and yet you still don't know what's in those flavors.

there's no point in talking further, because unlike everyone else:

Based on your words in your post: You know everything, and you knew it before everyone else, you already know more than most ejuice makers out there, everyone comes to you for advice, AND you know all the right people, etc.

I think I got it. I mean, I get *your* crusade.

 

[Sdh]

I totally agree its not worth conversing with folks who know everything. I cannot post too much info here or heads might spin. In addition, some of the language is not appropriate for this family type environment Therefore, do know the information is out there in the vaping world.

I don't buy the "we can't afford to test". There is a huge profit margin in elquid. One of the reasons so many fly by night vendors are popping up-just to disappear

For those who like diketoes-enjoy. No one is forcing anyone to not vape their favorite custards blends. However, some folks want to know what diketones are present. This is a avoidable risk that can be resolved.

 

[Racehorse]

No the problem people don't seem to understand is that you cannot create certain flavors without the bad stuff.

Sure you can. MOV and other companies reformulated certain juices so as not to harm their customers with flavors identified as probably "inhalation risks".

No one had a problem smoking diacetyl and rat poison laced cigarettes.

Actually, they did. You must not have followed the whole debacle very closely. Esp. the testimony of the whistle blowers. The problem is that BT lied about so many of the ingredients in cigs.

Besides, we'd all still be smoking if we WEREN'T concerned with diacetyls, rat poison, and the other effects of cigarettes. Isn't that why people take up vaping?

If I owned a flavoring company I'd tell the ecig industry to shove it rather then deal with the unavoidable drama.

If I owned a flavoring company, I would have separate lines for injestion and inhalation. Problem solved, and solution also allows me to be ethical.........and still make a profit.

For whatever (unknown) reason, you appear not to see the possibility of a win/win scenario. That is unfortunate.

The problem I see with those who have a political agenda that they bring to vaping is that many of us don't want to politicize our health for the sake of that, nor for the sake of some corporation making a profit. Nor even for the future of vaping.

I myself am not willing to risk my health in order to "advance" an industry, whether it be the vape industry or any other billion dollar industry. And, I don't feel like I will or should have to, because the information I need to vape safely is scientifically available.....i.e. testing.

Some of us actually took up vaping as harm reduction, not for more harm, or equal harm.

Because we know nothing else in life is more important than our health, and refuse to be cavelier about it for "political" reasons....we don't care about the buzz words like "nanny state" and such, because political buzz words, and the fear-mongering they are meant to induce, doesn't concern us.

Many of us want to vape safely, and if we can't, we are likely to find some other form of harm reduction that really does reduce our harm.

The simple truth is that no amount of disclosure is going to stop many people from vaping Capella custard v1.

That is certainly not a good enough reason to NOT have disclosure.

It's like buying a knife and expecting a warning label to advise caution because the knife is sharp.

What a bad analogy. Really. One can see a knife is sharp. One can use a knife and learn it is sharp. One cannot surmise anything of the sort about a bottle of ejuice that is about to be inhaled.

 

[Racehorse]

NicVape is now selling a verified DA- and AP-free flavor line:

E-Flavors by NicVape DIY Flavor Concentrates

COA from the lab is available for each flavor. I've tried some of them and they are pretty good. I like the tobaccos especially. The fruits are pretty true, but I'm not a fruit fan. The vanilla is good, but not creamy, similar to TPA Vanilla Swirl.

Thanks for this.

I guess I should expect them to go out of business soon, based on some of the comments here that provding testing is too steep an economic hardship. I believe, however, that the opposite will be true. I remember that saying "penny wise, pound foolish".

 

[Sdh]

Thanks for this.

I guess I should expect them to go out of business soon, based on some of the comments here that provding testing is too steep an economic hardship. I believe, however, that the opposite will be true. I remember that saying "penny wise, pound foolish".

I think they are huge. If you ever have a chance, watch the video on their website.

 

[Sdh]

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0JrO25MOsG5VjBBd0d4SlVNOXM/edit?pli=1

 

[crxess]

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0JrO25MOsG5VjBBd0d4SlVNOXM/edit?pli=1

Thank you. I have been looking for a plain vanilla copy of the report. Added to my Studies files.

I have never disagreed with knowing what is in your e-liquids. That is why I now DIY.
What I disagree with is Trusting government to give us what WE want in favor of what THEY want us to have.

 

[Sdh]

Thank you. I have been looking for a plain vanilla copy of the report. Added to my Studies files.

I have never disagreed with knowing what is in your e-liquids. That is why I now DIY.
What I disagree with is Trusting government to give us what WE want in favor of what THEY want us to have.

Your welcome. I agree. The vaping community can figure out how to deal with issues. It's all good.

 

[Sdh]

Another vendor who is testing for those diketones
Lab results in link.
Diacetyl Acetyl Propionyl

 

[Crunktanium]

If you think there is not much profit in ejuice then you don't actually do the DIYing you say you're doing. Because we all know how much it costs to make 30ml of juice. So, anyone who is only making $1 a bottle profit is clearly operating under a very unusual business model.

You cannot compare juice like Five Pawns to your local B&M who charges $5 a bottle or less. Yes it sounds extremely profitable even at $5 a bottle. That is until you have to build out a retail shop, invest thousands in product, pay for your employees, rent, electricity, water, insurance, business licenses, taxes and other misc expenses. You have obviously never run a business and not to mention most vape shops are rather new they are not well established having been around for many years. Most are startups with less then two years of operation and most business for that matter don't even turn a profit before the first or second year at best.

Sounds like you want to compare the big internet based players like Mt Baker, Alice in Vapeland, Five Pawns, Suicide Bunny and Space Jam with every local mom and pop shop out there. And the current industry players aren't even putting a dent in the sales figures Blu and other disposables are churning. By the time local shops pay all their operating costs there is minimal profit a dollar or two at best. That $1500 from juice a tiny shop did last month basically covered operating expenses if they were lucky to have cheap rent. So now they make a little off the hardware and if all goes well take home might be a grand or two in a really good month. If you think that's a very unusual business model you have obviously never run a business before.

Based on your posts I would have to guess you don't even have a clue. If you did I don't see why you aren't making your own designer juice free of all that bad stuff and counting your millions. I mean if nobody wants to vape the bad stuff and you know what people really want.. why not? You could put all those other guys out of business in an instant I'm sure. People should flock to anyone selling 100% safe organic juice at $20 a bottle that tastes so much better then all those bad juices. I don't believe you can do it but you are free to prove me wrong if you like.