The Muffin Man and The Milk Man - Company's response to Diacetyl, Acetoin or Acetyl Propionyl

[Jode]

To your first point stating that consumers should just, "suck it up", that's why we in the UK have 'Trading Standards' so consumers purchasing something that turns out to be 'unfit for purpose' has some recourse.

You missed my initial point, I know we as vapers decide to use a product that has not been fully tested and that is every vapers personal choice. That does not preclude anyone from trying to find out what is in the product they are consuming or asking for clarification of its contents so they can make a more informed choice.

As for your soda analogy, I'll trump you with a more accurate one; cigarettes and the tobacco industry. Do you think PM and the others chose to have health warning, pictures of diseased lungs and cadavers on their packaging? Of course not, government regulation forced them to do that. So your statement that, "Government is not going to watch out for anybody and regulations will do nothing to protect the "Hard of Thinking", is clearly incorrect. And this is what will happen in the vaping industry, if not worse, if we fail to self-regulate and give governments an excuse to do so on our behalf.

I have read every study and probably seen or listened to every interview Dr. Farsalinos has done on the subject. It comes down to two people reading the bible, for example, and each one interpreting the scripture differently. Else there would only be one denomination of Christianity, right? We all hold differing views and I'm not attempting to force my views on you or anyone else. I'm stating my opinion, hopefully backed up with some sound arguments and facts where applicable, and encouraging debate.

EDIT: I noted the list of petitions at the bottom of your signature (I assume these petitions are in defense of vaping - I'm a Briton so not familiar with them)? But why are we having to fight regulation? Just think if the industry did all the necessary research and regulated itself in a transparent manner would governments be so eager to impose regulation? Yes, we all know their main goal is to raise revenue from the sale of e-cigarette products but what are they using as an excuse for the necessity for regulation in the majority of cases?

I am very short on time this morning but I will respond quickly. Of course you are entitled to keep to your opinion and I will keep to mine. I didn't miss your point at all. I agree that people can and should inquire (research I alluded to) what products they are using. I don't think they should decide for all, especially on something that has not had enough studies done on it yet. You use the cigarette industry in your analogy while dismissing my analogy with no comment. Last I checked there is no disclosure of chemicals listed on a pack of cigs, just a bunch of horrid warnings that are next to never read that were placed after decades of people hearing fear mongering from ANTZ and demanding our government do something. I stand by my original statement that these regulations do little to keep anybody safe and have more to do with money then public safety. You just repeated what I was saying about Dr F., so we are on the same page there. I only made that comment to let you know that most posters that have been here a while are well aware of his studies. The petition in my sig is only one. Even though you are a Briton I suggest reading it. Lessifer is it's author with a few members contributing opinions at the time of it's writing. There are two different threads here on ECF about and in support of the petition. We are having to fight regulation because of fear mongering propaganda spread by ANTZ. We are in need of fighting pending regulations because there are a few large industries that are in fear of losing revenue and want vaping shut down or squelched to minuscule levels. We live in a mixed up world where people want you to believe that they are searching for a way to end tobacco use but they really do not because that causes so much loss of cash flow. It is similar to alcohol and prohibition. Transparency is a good thing, but I don't think it is the target of pending regulation. So no, I disagree that the government would keep out of vaping no matter how well we self regulated. That is all I have time for. In short, I agree with you on some points and disagree with others. You are entitled to stand by your thoughts as I am too.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Baking refined sugar into baked goods at higher temperatures often produces a chemical known to cause cancer. Under the "prevention principle" we need to stop eating cakes, pies, cookies . . .

Flowing water through brass fixtures leaches a measurable quantity of lead into the water. Almost all plumbing fixtures are made of brass. The pumps used to supply the water are made of brass. The advice has to be we must stop drinking any water because there is a potential risk that can't be readily quantified.

. . . etc.

 

[440BB]

I appreciate ECF moderating personal attacks.

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I think that a vendor that gives an evasive vague answer to a specific question about a possibly harmful flavoring component is one to avoid. I might have asked the question less dramatically, but it still deserved a clear answer. There are plenty of liquid makers that can give you a straight answer on whether they have tested for DA and AP or not and, if so, back that up with the results.

If one thinks the warnings and concerns about diketones deserve their attention, they should keep asking vendors for that information. Many liquid makers make great flavors without using those additives and I expect that many more will learn to if we continue to ask.

 

[retired1]

Some of you need to reacquaint themselves with the forum rules.

Forum Rules | E-Cigarette Forum

I trust we will see no further comments regarding a specific post, correct?

 

[Lessifer]

Government regulation of cigarettes has led to warning labels whose sole purpose is to make lawsuits harder, not the removal of any potential harmful components. I don't see the government regulation of vaping turning out any different.

 

[Icey]

Has the vendor ever answered back to the email?

 

[lexalove]

I am very short on time this morning but I will respond quickly. Of course you are entitled to keep to your opinion and I will keep to mine. I didn't miss your point at all. I agree that people can and should inquire (research I alluded to) what products they are using. I don't think they should decide for all, especially on something that has not had enough studies done on it yet. You use the cigarette industry in your analogy while dismissing my analogy with no comment. Last I checked there is no disclosure of chemicals listed on a pack of cigs, just a bunch of horrid warnings that are next to never read that were placed after decades of people hearing fear mongering from ANTZ and demanding our government do something. I stand by my original statement that these regulations do little to keep anybody safe and have more to do with money then public safety. You just repeated what I was saying about Dr F., so we are on the same page there. I only made that comment to let you know that most posters that have been here a while are well aware of his studies. The petition in my sig is only one. Even though you are a Briton I suggest reading it. Lessifer is it's author with a few members contributing opinions at the time of it's writing. There are two different threads here on ECF about and in support of the petition. We are having to fight regulation because of fear mongering propaganda spread by ANTZ. We are in need of fighting pending regulations because there are a few large industries that are in fear of losing revenue and want vaping shut down or squelched to minuscule levels. We live in a mixed up world where people want you to believe that they are searching for a way to end tobacco use but they really do not because that causes so much loss of cash flow. It is similar to alcohol and prohibition. Transparency is a good thing, but I don't think it is the target of pending regulation. So no, I disagree that the government would keep out of vaping no matter how well we self regulated. That is all I have time for. In short, I agree with you on some points and disagree with others. You are entitled to stand by your thoughts as I am too.

I actually agree with much of what you say Jode. We shall have to agree to disagree on the rest

Have a great day and keep on vaping!

 

[lexalove]

Bloody hell!!! I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest!
Were my comments really that inflammatory? It's debate ladies and gentlemen, I would hope grown adults can debate a point without, what I assume are personal insults /name calling.
I know we are all very passionate about vaping. We won't always agree, but I would hope we can all remain civil.

 

[zapped]

Just ask them if they are members of AEMSA or go to AESMA web site and see what manufacturers are members.

Aemsa is a joke.

And not a good one either.

I would be wary about any organization that has ties to Linc Williams, especially after the We are Vapers fiasco.....and numerous others detailed in my post below.

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/f...ociation-launches.339905/page-69#post-8743427

 

[Blake123]

So does one hot wonders e liquid (muffin man , milk man etc.) Contain dyactly or any of the other harmful chemicals linked to popcorn lung as mentioned by emolinare?

 

[Maiar]

Has there even been one case of popcorn lung that can be tied in any way to vaping yet? And did they ever get back to the OP about what's in the juice? I just bought a ....ing tub of muffin man, the stuff is probably the best and smoothest eliquid I've ever tried.

Sorry I'm not gonna wade through 30 .... pages of you guys arguing to look for the answer.

 

[Avius Heart]

The dash vapes website (google it) has done some testing on juices they sell. A few of the One Hit Wonder juices have been tested and contain some of these chemicals. Muffin Man for example has no Diacetyl but it contains Acetyl Propionyl. Rocket Man contains both. Milk Man and My Man were not tested.

Cheers.

 

[personalvoid]

I guess we will be happy when the regulatory body will kick in and only big tobacco could afford to pay for a liquid sku. Then you will be smoking legit Diacetyl from Phillip Morris. And that will be the only option, as it has ever been.

I mean the industry grew so much it is extremely more profitable for Tobacco companies to mass produce liquids rather growing shipping processing and manufacturing cigs from tobacco leaves.

So thank you vaping industry for creating a nice noche for the big boys to exploit.

 

[MadMeathead]

Without reading all 26 pages of the usual discussion, and keeping my opinions to my self.

Dashvapes in Canada has posted DA/AP numbers of some of the liquids they sell (note: sell. They don't pull the liquids, the data is there for the customer to make their own decision.) OHW is among them.

There you go.

 

[Pinggolfer]

Has there even been one case of popcorn lung that can be tied in any way to vaping yet? And did they ever get back to the OP about what's in the juice? I just bought a ....ing tub of muffin man, the stuff is probably the best and smoothest eliquid I've ever tried.

Sorry I'm not gonna wade through 30 .... pages of you guys arguing to look for the answer.

Not a one. Enjoy your juice.

 

[minoltaed]

I appreciate ECF moderating personal attacks.

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I think that a vendor that gives an evasive vague answer to a specific question about a possibly harmful flavoring component is one to avoid. I might have asked the question less dramatically, but it still deserved a clear answer. There are plenty of liquid makers that can give you a straight answer on whether they have tested for DA and AP or not and, if so, back that up with the results.

If one thinks the warnings and concerns about diketones deserve their attention, they should keep asking vendors for that information. Many liquid makers make great flavors without using those additives and I expect that many more will learn to if we continue to ask.

 

[Souljah96786]

I don't get it. Milkman clearly has these two chemicals well above the testing cutoff but are below the curve? What does this mean? I'm vamping this juice right now and still have a .... ton left! Lol..


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