Seriously, I couldn't care less about the ANTZ--I want to know what we're inhaling, so to speak.
Aspire official statement on Atlantis coils material
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Seriously, I couldn't care less about the ANTZ--I want to know what we're inhaling, so to speak.
I've briefed through this thread and I'm really confused by what's going on here and hoping for a basic summary.
Yea, I know Aspire's customer service is basically handled by bots. We outsource and they create chips. That's not my concern at the moment.
I don't recall ever holding up filler material used in wicks to this level of a standard before. I guess I want a comparitive to what others are using - and to other materials in order to understand which is worse / better.
I looked at this: http://kn100.info/hosted/scs.pdf
And RoHs directive has to do with hazardous waste in electronic components. I guess that's a baseline for what it's made out of. The Aspire website I thought indicated there might be 3 or 4 materials being used. Not just the one filler wick. I also understood zero of those chemicals/materials and didn't see anything about particle size. IMO particle size could be important. Am I missing something here?
I would need to look up every single item and even then, risk not understanding what they are doing or how they affect me. There is probably a list of known hazards (asbestos, etc) but I don't know what they are or why. There can be still that's ok in some amount or size that's not ok in another amount or size. I think it's impossible to stay away from everything, but I don't want to be stupid either. People still use non-stick pans despite some fairly conclusive evidence of harm.
IMO it's as dangerous to jump to conclusions as it is to ignore possible unnecessary risk. The nautillus is the best tank I've found. Would it really be better to go back to a carto that has even more filler with unknown material? I can also see potential for a smear campaign from a competitor. Not cool, but coulld happen.
I doubt that one above tells the whole story. I'd almost like to see a coil anaylized after a tank has been put through it by someone that has more experience in this type of stuff. A chemist? I really don't know.
Maybe we should be taking a closer look at all types of filler material or maybe it'd be better to switch off between several different types to minimize risk??? IDK. Like I said, I'm looking for a summary / some context ...
Yea, I know Aspire's customer service is basically handled by bots. We outsource and they create chips. That's not my concern at the moment.
I don't recall ever holding up filler material used in wicks to this level of a standard before. I guess I want a comparitive to what others are using - and to other materials in order to understand which is worse / better.
I looked at this: http://kn100.info/hosted/scs.pdf
And RoHs directive has to do with hazardous waste in electronic components. I guess that's a baseline for what it's made out of. The Aspire website I thought indicated there might be 3 or 4 materials being used. Not just the one filler wick. I also understood zero of those chemicals/materials and didn't see anything about particle size. IMO particle size could be important. Am I missing something here?
I would need to look up every single item and even then, risk not understanding what they are doing or how they affect me. There is probably a list of known hazards (asbestos, etc) but I don't know what they are or why. There can be still that's ok in some amount or size that's not ok in another amount or size. I think it's impossible to stay away from everything, but I don't want to be stupid either. People still use non-stick pans despite some fairly conclusive evidence of harm.
IMO it's as dangerous to jump to conclusions as it is to ignore possible unnecessary risk. The nautillus is the best tank I've found. Would it really be better to go back to a carto that has even more filler with unknown material? I can also see potential for a smear campaign from a competitor. Not cool, but coulld happen.
I doubt that one above tells the whole story. I'd almost like to see a coil anaylized after a tank has been put through it by someone that has more experience in this type of stuff. A chemist? I really don't know.
Maybe we should be taking a closer look at all types of filler material or maybe it'd be better to switch off between several different types to minimize risk??? IDK. Like I said, I'm looking for a summary / some context ...
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Katya, that link comes up 'Resource Not Found (404)' for me.
And since we don't even know what kind of fiberglass/ceramic paper they are using...
Again, it's just me. I've been trying to get information about that fiberglass (confirmed by a Swiss-based lab) since September. The company has not exactly been truthful in their responses--to my emails and in public, on their website--about the materials they use in their tanks (it ain't stainless steel, folks) and in their coils. I don't like being lied to. And now they claim that they are using organic Japanese cotton also??? Nobody mentioned that before.
Oh, it's not just you my friend. I had no idea Aspire were being this disingenuous until I read this thread. This is not a product I am interested in myself, so I never did any research into it before. I've still only scratched the surface myself so I appreciate your information on it all the more
Merry Christmas and all the best in 2015 to you and yours Katya!
Aikanae, particle size is critical, to the best of my understanding. Anything under 5 microns is not suitable for our application. It is my belief that the latest proclamation from Aspire was in response to more and more vapers expressing their unease with the fiberglass and with Aspire's dodging the issue. pulling old answers from the website (including the lab report), and refusing to provide updated information. If you want to read more (and see very interesting pictures showing the size of particles in Aspire's fiber, go to Vaper Joes Canada and read his article "Aspire’s Atlantis Heads, Silica Wicking, & Silicosis… What Vapers Need to Know." If you follow the links provided underneath, you'll be able to see the pictures. I don't think I'm allowed to repost those pictures here, so you'll have to do the footwork yourself. Oh, the link to Vapor Joes is not allowed here either, but you can easily Google the site--all the info is there.
Hah! That's odd. I did another Google search and found this url. Does this one work for you?
http://srs.unm.edu/industrial-hygiene/media/docs/silica.pdf
Oh, it's not just you my friend. I had no idea Aspire were being this disingenuous until I read this thread. This is not a product I am interested in myself, so I never did any research into it before. I've still only scratched the surface myself so I appreciate your information on it all the more
I've been on their case since last summer.
I'm so happy to see that other people are finally starting to ask questions, also. That's how things are done in the vaping world. as you know; if enough vapers express their displeasure with a product, improvement are made.That's why I never buy version 1 of anything.
I own a ProVari V 2.5, MVP V2, and Sigelei Zmax V3. Oh, but I do own an iStick V1--only because one of my best ECF friends bought one for me when she saw them on sale at 50% off.
Merry Christmas to you and yours, my friend!
are all aspire heads presumed to be suspect?
if not, which ones are (or are not... shorter list will do)?
just got billet boxes with billet bridges for a couple people. would hate to have wasted the money on the bridges and couple dozen heads. though would rather them not be vaping something more risky than necessary via my guidance.
if not, which ones are (or are not... shorter list will do)?
just got billet boxes with billet bridges for a couple people. would hate to have wasted the money on the bridges and couple dozen heads. though would rather them not be vaping something more risky than necessary via my guidance.
Asking questions and expecting truthful answers is considered hysteria?
BTW, this is what this forum is for--we question everything. We take things apart and analyze them. We exchange information and warn each other about possible dangers. We write letters to manufacturers and vendors, express our concerns, and ask for explanations and/or changes. We've been doing it since day 1. This industry is completely unregulated--we have to regulate it ourselves.
Welcome to the forum!
Thank you for the warm welcome.
I never said not to question, I said not to be hysterical. Fiber glass and ceramic are not the same thing. Size of the object is not as much of an issue as the shape of the object. A lot of loose info is being put out here as if we have experts diagnosing problems in a scientific manner. The most basic understanding of these materials is missing, this to me fits within the bounds of hysteria. I have worked in the field that has exposed me to many things such as asbestos. We now use silica based sealers on boiler tubes instead of asbestos. Now you can argue till you are blue in the face that silica and asbestos is the same but it is not, it is the nature of the barbed type of crystal that asbestos is made from, plus it's small size ( making it hard to detect ) In fact asbestos is dangerous in all sizes, but the smaller one is more troublesome to not only detect it, but also defend against it with hepa type filters as they pass through most filters and loge into your lungs.
Now how we got ceramic mixed with fiberglass is another interesting question. Yet most folks posting in this thread are going on and on comparing different materials together, mixing things up and forming opinions. Without even so much as a clue as to what they are comparing. Yet advise is being giving as if coming from experts in the filed, yet the the most basic understanding of the materials is not correct. With this said how can so many have such strong convictions of matters that they know hardly anything about?
This is going to be my last post on this subject matter. I'm new around here and there are other places for me to explore without getting embroiled in nonsensical arguments about base substances that people simply have no clue about, yet they feel that they have the authority to regulate an industry. I'm sorry but this is laughable, and rather sadly embarrassing
Again thanks for the welcome.
Regards,
Just FYI -- if there is anything specific I have said you feel is incorrect and can educate me on or point me towards sources, I'd entirely welcome it as would others.
Your right in that many here are laymen, vapers, trying to figure out what they are vaping without any help or explaination from the manufactuer. I know I'd be more interested in hearing your perspective on these materials.
To my knowledge, no one's been using this as a wicking material before. It's not considered safe. There's definitely been lots and lots of looking at the materials used for wicking but generally for commercial applications you've had:
1.Silica
As was mentioned before, this stuff will shred as it's braided but doesn't generally crumble. It isn't super light, so while it's possible for bits to break off if you are messing with it and possibly inhale, it'd be very rare and there's no known danger from when it's been studied. Motes of it won't be migrating around.
You inhale different types of dust and such every day, and your lungs and cillia deal with it so it's either absorbed and dealt with or moved out or coughed up. But there are types and sizes mentioned that are really problematic. A naturally ocurring example might be volcanic ash -- it's size and structure messes up your lungs in a big way, but walking around a dusty house doesn't unless you've got asthma. Same amounts, different outcome.
2. Poly-fil (cotton or polyester)
This was originally used in the old cartomizers, and has made a comeback in some of the new tanks, which are basically a gauze wrapped around a heating element. The polyester component is the negative one, but you're talking fumes here if burned. e.g., if you dry-burn it or run it with no juice, it very much *is* possible to burn it and then you're inhaling whiffs of petroleum.
3. Cotton
No amount of smoke particulates are great for you (even from cars) but this is in that minor league, like being around exhaust and only if you burn it. This is really only being included for completeness -- again, cotton fibers aren't really going to be migrating or crumbling, so it's about whether they burn.
In general, other systems are based on long braided silica fibers, cotton, with the exception of cartomizers which are generally polyfill. For example, the Kanger subtank is cotton.
I think you skimmed instead of reading, and then are asking people to do your homework lol. If that's snarkier than it needs to be, it's because generally if someone can't be bothered to read through a thread or even the posts that have the link they're talking about in it, they aren't that serious about it. But we're probably both just having long days, so bygones!
Their tank is based on cotton and either fiberglass or ceramic paper. The important thing to note in that link is that when they submitted it for testing to be able to access other markets like the US/EU, they said it was fiberglass paper. To be clear, neither is fit for purpose, just like a lead juice well wouldn't be.
Word.
Well I sorted the filler material above, but with this I've noticed that:
1. Some people just don't know
2. Some people don't *want* to know
3. Some people resent knowing
4. Some people don't care
In my mind this is really about #1, as people can make up their own minds and use what they want. But if I had one and didn't know this stuff, I'd be kinda put out if someone knew and didn't inform me.
Yeah, no. This is where skimming is catching up with you again -- that isn't what this is. Everything people are talking about comes from Aspire themselves, or direct from the product. I'm not sure how your brain jumped there honestly, and I'd wonder if you were schilling, which wouldn't be cool, but could happen.
(To be clear, I don't in any way think you're a schill due to your post count etc -- that was a rhetorical device to make a point about your point before you point it out)
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The BDC (bottom dual coils) are made from traditional cartolike materials, so I don't worry too much about those. All the BVC (bottom vertical coils) have that questionable fiberglass filler--Nautilus, non-Nautilus and Atlantis coils.
Sorry, that's all I know, beck.
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Who exactly is being hysterical here?
Never mind.
Nobody (but Aspire) said they are.
Information is missing because the manufacturer won't disclose what kind of material they are using. Believe me, I've been corresponding with them for months.
Nobody is arguing that it's the same. I've never even mentioned asbestos in any of my posts.
Because Aspire posted in their initial answer from August 13 (now deleted) that the material is "ceramic paper" and attached a copy of a Swiss-based lab report stating that the said material is fiberglass. In the same post. When I questioned Aspire about the discrepancy, their representative told me that "there was a mistake in translation" in the lab report and that's why they had to remove their original answer and the report from the site. Really? A Swiss lab issuing an official report in English made a mistake in translation? Okie dokie.
Very wise decision. There are plenty of other threads on the forum. Enjoy! If you don't like a particular conversation, just don't join it. That's what I do.
We've been regulating this industry for years.
Everything you buy from Chinese manufacturers nowadays was invented on this forum (and similar forums in Germany, Greece, Russia, England, etc.) by vapers who were not satisfied with the hardware they were using. Trust me. Carto tanks, fillerless clearomizers, APVs, RBAs, RDAs, variable voltage and variable wattage batteries, and now the DNA 40 with temperature regulation. No, we didn't know much, but we asked questions, we contacted people who did know--our resident chemists and materials engineers and electricians. Our modders are extremely clever. Many commercial juice makers started here, as fellow ECF rank and file DIY enthusiasts. And we enlisted real experts, like our favorite cardiologist Dr. Farsalinos, who's conducting all kinds of fascinating studies of eliquids, high temperature vaping, for example.
This thread alone, now over 5 1/2 years old, led to many changes in the "industry." Many of the participants (including yours truly) were invited to be beta testers for several carto manufacturers.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...8-4081-etc-filler-type-cartos.html#post300790
"The industry" you speak of started here--and continues to develop through our feedback. Feedback from vapers, reviewers, vendors, bloggers...
Pleasure!
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And if you don't believe me, behold the first carto tank/clearomizer, invented by my dear friend br5495.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...zer-technical-discussion-196.html#post1992661
That was another epic thread, BTW--so many great things were invented by those guys and subsequently manufactured in China.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...zer-technical-discussion-196.html#post1992661
That was another epic thread, BTW--so many great things were invented by those guys and subsequently manufactured in China.
And if you don't believe me, behold the first carto tank/clearomizer, invented by my dear friend br5495.
this is awesome. and this entire thread is a great read. I have nothing to add but a thanks to those with the info for posting it.
By far the best post in this thread. It's nice to see someone with enough common sense to know that everything you read on the internet isn't true, and that opinions aren't facts.
Laughable? Which part is laughable? That we're demanding answers? Is it really "sadly embarrassing" to want to know what kind of material Aspire is stuffing their coil heads with???? We just want a straight answer. That's all. What's wrong with that? Why does that upset you so much?
I even asked Dr. Farsalinos (who's a cardiologist and a renown e-cigarette researcher) about it, and this is what he had to say:
If the material is even remotely dangerous or controversial, as fiberglass is, why use it in the first place????
And I believe that we can (and should) influence Chinese manufacturers and persuade them to use safer materials. Nobody here wants to "regulate" the industry--we want the industry to self-regulate. And we want full disclosure. Tell us what materials you're using so we can decide for ourselves if we want them or not.
Here's what I got in one of the responses to my emails:
And this is a more recent response from Aspire to a member of another forum:
So, yes, you can fight city hall.
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Welp, being the antsy person I am, and not having any japanese cotton. I went ahead and rebuilt the spare head that came with my tank with standard 100% organic cotton. Needless to say, it is vaping great!
Now then, I did notice something when taking apart the unused head. There are 2 separate sheets of stuff wrapping the coil. The outside layer looks like the stuff you all are worried about, but the material under it just looks like cotton. Have any of you taken a stock head apart and seen this as well?
EDIT: The inner part of the material touching the coil seems to be the material that is questionable. The material wrapped around it looks to me to be just cotton
EDIT 2: Just took pictures to better explain what I am talking about.. Will link them as soon as I can
EDIT 3: Getting ready to post the images. They might be large, But that is to show detail
EDIT 4: Please click images to enlarge. Hopefully you all should be able to see what I am talking about
The first photo is of what it looks like when you take the whole thing off
The second photo shows, that under the questionable material, it looks to just be cotton.
Could we just take unused heads, and remove the questionable material and put the cotton back on? or is all of it made up of the questionable material?
Now then, I did notice something when taking apart the unused head. There are 2 separate sheets of stuff wrapping the coil. The outside layer looks like the stuff you all are worried about, but the material under it just looks like cotton. Have any of you taken a stock head apart and seen this as well?
EDIT: The inner part of the material touching the coil seems to be the material that is questionable. The material wrapped around it looks to me to be just cotton
EDIT 2: Just took pictures to better explain what I am talking about.. Will link them as soon as I can
EDIT 3: Getting ready to post the images. They might be large, But that is to show detail
EDIT 4: Please click images to enlarge. Hopefully you all should be able to see what I am talking about
The first photo is of what it looks like when you take the whole thing off
The second photo shows, that under the questionable material, it looks to just be cotton.
Could we just take unused heads, and remove the questionable material and put the cotton back on? or is all of it made up of the questionable material?
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Awesome! To quote Voltaire, "Rock out with your mod out."
It's cotton with the questionables. e.g. it should be as layers {cotton}-questionables-{cotton}.
I'd be interested to know your ohms/wattage and whether or not you've experienced dry hits since rebuilding. The idea is cotton is great for absorbing, but not the best at wicking. With only cotton, you might have to allow it time to resaturate here and there, and it's possible at higher ohms the other edges of it don't feed into the coil as well. You see this now and again with RDAs with lots of cotton, where the stuff at the coil is dried up so you get dry hits, while the stuff far away from it is still wet. Japanese cotten is processed to wick a bunch better -- but you might also check out rayon.
*gives the horns*
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