Aspire official statement on Atlantis coils material
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This works fine Katya, thanks! The last paragraph on the safety of amorphous silica was a good read, I had forgotten that term from my initial research on silica a couple of years back. The exclusion of fiberglass and ceramic fibers from being safe reinforces what I've read elsewhere.
Great stuff
Fahrvergnügen!!!
these things are HOT right now, too. so much so that i just picked up a couple billet boxes for family and right away got billet bridges and BVC coils for them.
this is NOT what i wanted to see right about now.
This is what I know:
http://srs.unm.edu/industrial-hygien...ocs/silica.pdf
And since we don't even know what kind of fiberglass/ceramic paper they are using...
Again, it's just me. I've been trying to get information about that fiberglass (confirmed by a Swiss-based lab) since September. The company has not exactly been truthful in their responses--to my emails and in public, on their website--about the materials they use in their tanks (it ain't stainless steel, folks) and in their coils. I don't like being lied to. And now they claim that they are using organic Japanese cotton also??? Nobody mentioned that before.
I'll stay with amorphous silica wicks and Japanese organic cotton--at least for now. Silicosis and lung cancer are no fun. The only things we really need in our PVs (necessary risk) are PG, VG, nicotine and some kind of a heating wire (nichrome, kanthal, nickel, stainless steel, titanium). Everything else is just an add-on. I try to avoid add-ons that may pose unnecessary and completely avoidable risks.
Using fiberglass as a wicking material is just plain foolish. There are much better choices out there.
As always, YMMV.
No disrespect intended, Katya, but I don't think you'll ever be satisfied with their explanations, until they provide us with the molecular breakdown of the ceramic material that they use in their wicking material. While I understand why you are concerned, I feel that you may be a little overly concerned about the "what ifs", with a preconceived opinion of the product being harmful, rather than really analyzing the information provided to us in a more scientific manner.
Your biggest concerns seem to be the particle size and the type of ceramic material used, right? I noticed in another reply here that you mentioned the concern of the ceramic particles being smaller than 5 microns. So, just think about that and hear me out for a second.
Material: While ceramics do contain silicates that can cause silicosis, the amount of those silicates is very low in ceramics from what I understand. If you do some research on the subject of respiratory problems with people who work in the pottery industry, you'll find that it is only common in people who work in the field for many years, and who also don't wear respirators while sweeping large amounts of the dust on a daily basis. Getting that level of ceramic dust from a device like this is literally impossible even if you suck on dry BVCs all day, every day.
Particle size: Many people are concerned about the ceramic "grit" that they feel on their fingers when they pull apart a dry BVC. The fact that they can feel the grit pretty much tells us that the particles are larger than 5μm. Mold spores and pollen spores are in the 5μm - 10μm range, and the pollen we see isn't individual pollen spores...it is clumps of them. The human eye can't generally see anything smaller than about 25μm. But, I'm sure people are thinking "But what if the BVCs have ceramic particles smaller than 5μm that we can't see?" Well, the best way to prevent the inhalation of spores and tiny dust particles is to use a wet filter...which is exactly what the BVC provides us with. Even the slightest amount of moisture in the wicking material would prevent the dust from being inhaled. The addition of the organic cotton on both sides of the ceramic wicking material, and the moisture that builds up on the screen mesh that is above the wicking material, are added barriers too. To be honest, I don't think those were even put in place to aid in the filtering of particles, because it really would be unnecessary. If I had to guess, I'd assume that the organic cotton was added to both sides to prevent the media from crumbling during the wrapping process and the screen mesh was put in place to prevent spit back and/or keep any dry "crumbles" from coming loose before being saturated.
Again, I understand why you're concerned and/or curious about the material. I just feel that you have an already preconceived notion that these are bad and it's going to be nearly impossible for anyone to convince you otherwise.
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I understood this thread to be fact finding, at least for me regardless of where that leads.
There is a lot of context missing from here that's been previously discussed. If Dr. F said that, then I'd like more of an explanation on why as well. His opinion carries a lot of weight. Sometimes taking the role of devils advocate can get more answers (full disclosure: I'm libra so I'm going to shoot for balance).
The reason I like the post below is that many times it's a matter of degrees and all hazards can not be eliminated. I relate this to harmful bacteria levels and many people would be shocked at how much their home harbors, but it's not only type and amount but length of exposure, environment, host's health and quite a few other factors that are not as easily observed or understood.
I think of propane wicking where once it's lit, the particles are "dust" but large and heavy enough to cling together unless touched. Of course I don't know if that's whats going on, but it's a possibility. I also know metal screens can carry an electro magnetic charge attracting fine particles but I kinda wonder if there's enough air flow for that to happen.
I am interested in lowest and reducing risk where possible. Questions are good. Unfortunately Aspire is not one of the most responsive manufacturers to work with. Customer service is a known pain and they clearly are geared to deal more with distributors than individuals. I don't think that means they are hiding something beyond not having a department to deal with answering questions, but at the same time it could be. There's just isn't enough information yet.
It's also possible that some materials haven't been rated or tested yet. That's not the same as saying "not safe". Some of the metals used I question as well - specifically nickle which is released from stainless as well (medical and food grades are worse). There's a lot of work to be done if the community gets a chance.
I do have some understanding of lungs since I've lived with both obstructive and restrictive disease from a child. They are amazing organs when you consider how much abuse they can handle - again, eliminating all risks is impossible so it becomes a matter of degrees or how much exposure.
My apologies, not everyone can spend all the time required on everything that's needed. That doesn't mean I'm "too lazy to read". It means I have other pet projects that at some point in time those pursuing this may benefit from as well and vice versa. (I wish ECF had a wikipedia like area so stuff like this could be adde/changed as it becomes known).
There is a lot of context missing from here that's been previously discussed. If Dr. F said that, then I'd like more of an explanation on why as well. His opinion carries a lot of weight. Sometimes taking the role of devils advocate can get more answers (full disclosure: I'm libra so I'm going to shoot for balance).
The reason I like the post below is that many times it's a matter of degrees and all hazards can not be eliminated. I relate this to harmful bacteria levels and many people would be shocked at how much their home harbors, but it's not only type and amount but length of exposure, environment, host's health and quite a few other factors that are not as easily observed or understood.
I think of propane wicking where once it's lit, the particles are "dust" but large and heavy enough to cling together unless touched. Of course I don't know if that's whats going on, but it's a possibility. I also know metal screens can carry an electro magnetic charge attracting fine particles but I kinda wonder if there's enough air flow for that to happen.
I am interested in lowest and reducing risk where possible. Questions are good. Unfortunately Aspire is not one of the most responsive manufacturers to work with. Customer service is a known pain and they clearly are geared to deal more with distributors than individuals. I don't think that means they are hiding something beyond not having a department to deal with answering questions, but at the same time it could be. There's just isn't enough information yet.
It's also possible that some materials haven't been rated or tested yet. That's not the same as saying "not safe". Some of the metals used I question as well - specifically nickle which is released from stainless as well (medical and food grades are worse). There's a lot of work to be done if the community gets a chance.
I do have some understanding of lungs since I've lived with both obstructive and restrictive disease from a child. They are amazing organs when you consider how much abuse they can handle - again, eliminating all risks is impossible so it becomes a matter of degrees or how much exposure.
My apologies, not everyone can spend all the time required on everything that's needed. That doesn't mean I'm "too lazy to read". It means I have other pet projects that at some point in time those pursuing this may benefit from as well and vice versa. (I wish ECF had a wikipedia like area so stuff like this could be adde/changed as it becomes known).
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The "Panicle" of their efforts? OK, SOMEONE needs better English!
Simple solution for those worried about it. Rebuild. I know exactly whats in my plume veil. Lol.
Ahhh...but the real question is this. Do you know the chemical composition of, and do you have certificates of purity for every material you build with? Are you 100% positive that your cotton or rayon has absolutely no contaminants in it? Can anyone prove that organic cotton has absolutely no silicates, metal particles, or traces lubricants in it left over from the machinery that harvests and processes it?
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I thought it was pretty well written coming from a person whose native language is, more than likely, not English. And, if you want to be picky, you really should have said "Someone needs to learn proper English". "Someone needs better English" is poorly written English. [emoji12]
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That ties in with something I was thinking about. The PDF I linked to earlier is in English. Is it possible that the name of the sample Aspire provided was mistranslated?
the FDA is going to do what its going to do.
going hyper spastic on every little possible problem
however minute is not a safety issue. its a mass
hysteria issue.
it will only show the ANTZ that we can't possibly think
for ourselves and their just the ones that will do it for
us.
ragards
mike
I'm certainly not going to pick a fight with Batman, but drawing any correlation between my post and "killing some babies"? Really, "dude"?
And I am not as much "advocating silence" as I want to suggest "if you can't help me, just don't help that bear" (assuming you may have heard that old joke).
It's drunkenbatman, don't want trademark issues.
And awesome! Filed for notes. And yes, zero reason why you can't just yank it out and use cotton.Or pesticides? can't forget the pesticides...
Also, on a side not, my dog for whatever reason WON'T eat popcorn...She'll eat peas, corn, broccoli and most stuff kids hate but won't touch popcorn. Anyone figure out why? I speculate it has to do with diethyl. Something my grandpa taught me as a kid "If deer don't eat certain berries then there is a good reason behind this. It's poisonous" I feel it's the same with my dog and popcorn
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The e-liquid is first absorbed by a cotton layer from the tank, which is then absorbed by the Patented Aspire Ceramic paper, which is then passed onto the cotton layer to the heating coil.
Organic cotton is a great wicking material, but does not contain the capillary capacity that our Ceramic Paper has from our research.
The Ceramic Paper is actually incased in the organic cotton as a high capacity holding area for the cotton to draw from so it can deliver e-liquid to the coil.
This design is proficient in keeping all the materials saturated at sub ohm, which increases the life of the atomizer.
Our patented ceramic paper has been tested by SGS, and shows there are no harmful chemicals or of off-gasses according the international standards currently in place. from Aspire forum.
I doubt if Aspire is ever going to release much information on a patented product. It's a general buisness practice for companies to keep all their privately funded research, private. That practice is reinforenced in the deeming regulations as well so I doubt there's much that anyone's going to change. For that matter, I wouldn't be surprised if other atomizers are usuing patented materials they developed. The other option would be if someone else paid for independant testing of what's in ceramic paper.
I think this might turn out to be a case of "pick your poison" - not that it's poison as in harm, but it's your choice if you want to use the product or not. Want scary? Take apart a Vuse head. It's all plastic including the wicking and it melts.
That thread on the Aspire page looks like a hate feast with some extreme things said and yet they aren't providing evidence of harm either. The kind of hysteria there is spooky.
I'd sure like to know what Dr. F was reffering to.
Organic cotton is a great wicking material, but does not contain the capillary capacity that our Ceramic Paper has from our research.
The Ceramic Paper is actually incased in the organic cotton as a high capacity holding area for the cotton to draw from so it can deliver e-liquid to the coil.
This design is proficient in keeping all the materials saturated at sub ohm, which increases the life of the atomizer.
Our patented ceramic paper has been tested by SGS, and shows there are no harmful chemicals or of off-gasses according the international standards currently in place. from Aspire forum.
I doubt if Aspire is ever going to release much information on a patented product. It's a general buisness practice for companies to keep all their privately funded research, private. That practice is reinforenced in the deeming regulations as well so I doubt there's much that anyone's going to change. For that matter, I wouldn't be surprised if other atomizers are usuing patented materials they developed. The other option would be if someone else paid for independant testing of what's in ceramic paper.
I think this might turn out to be a case of "pick your poison" - not that it's poison as in harm, but it's your choice if you want to use the product or not. Want scary? Take apart a Vuse head. It's all plastic including the wicking and it melts.
That thread on the Aspire page looks like a hate feast with some extreme things said and yet they aren't providing evidence of harm either. The kind of hysteria there is spooky.
I'd sure like to know what Dr. F was reffering to.
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The babies thing may not be the best example, same thing as pet food killing pets. Melanmie was already illegal to add in both human or dog food. The result in China was that several lost their heads and a number of government officials went to jail. It's not just the "cost of doing business" fines like they have here.
But no one has set any standards for this stuff yet and the fact they even did testing was beyond the minimum required. They didn't have to.
I think a bigger cause for concern might be what clones are using, without ceramic paper and probably not doing testing. I buy a lot of clone heads.
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Did you see if your dog was interesting in vaping?
(j/king)
I think you'll find diacetyl has been removed from most (if not all) brands of popcorn for awhile now.
Going to ignore your statement about Katya's intentions, etc. and just focus on this.
1. We are not talking about standard ceramic dust, we are talking about a very specific type of material called ceramic paper, or fiberglass paper, which is in a different league. We are not talking about large quantities of dust mite feces, we are not talking about sawdust, we are specifically talking about ceramic paper & fiberglass dust, two things known to break apart with agitation and are considered extremely dangerous to inhale.
2. How would you suggest someone wear a respirator while vaping their BVC coils?
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