Atrial Fibrilation? Really? How weird

[videvinci]

Thanks for the link. I read through the thread. Sorry to hear about your issues. Wow... that's terrible.

Interesting that they have classified your case as a kind of 'heart attack' whereas they are classifying mine as more of an 'electrical issue' (paroxysmal atrial flutter and fibrillation to be technical). Is that perhaps because of the 'elevated enzymes' and the 1-time occurrence? Have the symptoms subsided since lowering your nic dose?

I have not had a recurrence, but I am glad I'm down to 13mg. Some days I really miss the 26mg, but I have not had a cigarette since that one time occurrence. I totally stopped my 4-5 analogues per day. In retrospect I do think that a person ingests more nicotine if you use your vaporiser as a pacifier. I have also found that even 6mg tastes extremely strong after your palet has been cleaned i.e after dinner (for a few minutes). As soon as your mouth gets accustomed to the taste, the taste diminishes and a person is prone to suck on your pv without thinking. I wish I had a way to measure my nicotine intake per day.

 

[MadmanMacguyver]

I would check out the straight pg or vg options and reduce your nic...I had thought for a while I was using too much nic due to some interesting symptoms when I chain vaped but then I forgot to add VG to a DIY batch of juice and suddenly they went away...since then I have been vaping 28nic 100%pg and had no problems...so I have come to the conclusion that not only are there people sensitive to PG but there must also be the opposite...As I am sure I am not an Alien...lol

 

[bmwjen]

Onset of AFIB can be at any age, but yes 39 is pretty young for it to happen. I highly doubt that the spontaneous pneumo was the cause of the AFIB...............rather, that while you were hospitalized for the pneumo, the medical team caught the AFIB & decided to treat it.
~not smoking is good
~lowering nic intake is good
~lots of rest & low stress is better
~not working night shift works for a lot of the people I know with AFIB

I'd take cardizem, or cardizem combined with a beta blocker before getting an ablation at the age of 39. Just my personal observations, even with the ablations, AFIB continues to happen, which leads to more cardiac ablations, etc, etc.

The problem with AFIB is that the top of the heart is beating so fast that it can't fully empty blood to the bottom of the heart, so some of the blood sits in the top of the heart & therefore clots, which can eventually lead to stroke. Now that is something that you definitely don't want to happen at 39.

The only cure i've seen is traditional western medicine COMBINED with rest & decreased stress level. I'm so sorry that this had to happen to you.

 

[douglas]

so I have come to the conclusion that not only are there people sensitive to PG but there must also be the opposite...As I am sure I am not an Alien...lol

No... that pretty much confirms it. You're definitely an alien.

 

[JW50]

Last post was several days ago so you have likely resolved your approach to your health issue. But reading your first post caused me to want to know more about AFIB. You have probably already read this - probably more than once - but Wikipedia has I found to be a good discussion of the issue. What peaked my interest into your post was the concern about the nicotine. I have a vascual health issue that first caused me to look for a means to quit smoking - which lead me to e-cigs - and then concern about the nic that e-cigs have when finally diagnosed with the vascular problems. Personally I would tend to follow the advice the docs are giving. It seems that the causes AFIB are not always crystal clear. But I suspect there is high probability that cigarette smoking had something to do with your current condition. And nicotine, plasibly, could be in the mix. If you're willing and capable of giving up the nicotine - zero nic vaping sounds wise. No nic would seem unlikely to have adverse effect on your condition - but not totally impossible. That is, not totally impossible than no nic might be adverse. But of the things that have been metioned I would suggest more exercise as a possible improving element. (Subject to approval of the docs) I would also, like you have mentioned, suggest alternate meds to the docs. There seem to be lots of possibilities for different meds that might help. Good luck and I hope you will keep us posted on the effects of your no nic experiences. (But don't let it force you back to the devils.)

 

[JW50]

Douglas I am totally convinced, in my own case that I am getting FAR less nicotine than I was before.
My heart has always been very quick to tell me when it's received too much stimulant. Just one glass of wine for example and immediately I feel the rate increase and more often than not a few extra beats thrown in for good measure.
Before a day of heavy smoking would be guaranteed to end in an uncomfortable night of ectopics and sometimes palpitations.
Maybe I just suck at vaping (scuse the pun) or maybe there is a lot more that we don't know about as far as all those other chemicals in tobacco cigarettes that drastically enhance the absorption process of nicotine.
I'm actually surprised that you are having this problem now and yet didn't when you were smoking?

Odd IMO. I would think the glass of wine would, if anything, cause a heart rate decrease. If Douglas is going to give up the nic - let's don't make him give up the wine too!

 

[JW50]

Here is a link to an abstract of some medical research done that might impact upon knowledge of cartiac arrhythmias. It is: Direct block of inward rectifier potassium channel... [Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2000] - PubMed result. Title is "Direct block of inward recifier potassium channels by nicotine". Many of the research papers are quite incomprensible to me and this one is close to the "many" mentioned. However, I think it is suggestive that nic may not be good for your condition. I think it is saying that nicotine might block potassium channels and that might cause instability in heart muscle firings. But, perhaps there is a drug that is a anti-potassium channel blocker. Big long shot here but maybe if discussed with a doc it might lead to another kind of med to try.

 

[CES]

Here is a link to an abstract of some medical research done that might impact upon knowledge of cartiac arrhythmias. It is: Direct block of inward rectifier potassium channel... [Toxicol Appl Pharmacol. 2000] - PubMed result. Title is "Direct block of inward recifier potassium channels by nicotine". Many of the research papers are quite incomprensible to me and this one is close to the "many" mentioned. However, I think it is suggestive that nic may not be good for your condition. I think it is saying that nicotine might block potassium channels and that might cause instability in heart muscle firings. But, perhaps there is a drug that is a anti-potassium channel blocker. Big long shot here but maybe if discussed with a doc it might lead to another kind of med to try.

that's an interesting abstract, but the concentrations of nicotine that affected the potassium channels were a few orders of magnitude larger than that usually found in the bloodstreams of smokers (and vapers?). the lowest effective concentration was 0.5 micromolar, while the reported concentrations of nicotine in the bloodstream of smokers is around 0.0001 micromolar

 

[JW50]

that's an interesting abstract, but the concentrations of nicotine that affected the potassium channels were a few orders of magnitude larger than that usually found in the bloodstreams of smokers (and vapers?). the lowest effective concentration was 0.5 micromolar, while the reported concentrations of nicotine in the bloodstream of smokers is around 0.0001 micromolar

Very interesting comment. The authors of this paper were H. Wang, B. Yang, L. Zhang, D. Xu and Z. Wang. Institution associated with it : Research Center, Montreal Heart Institute, Montreal, Quebec, H1T 1C8, Canada. Published in 2000. Again, if not clear before, no expertise in this field at all for me. But you seem to be saying that the research was mostly meaningless. If smokers don't have nicotine levels that approach the concentration levels that have effect on potassium channels, what category of human would? It would seem that if blood stream levels had to be a hundred times higher than the typical smokers, those humans would of subcomed to the toxicity by other means long before there was concern about potassium channels?

 

[CES]

The work may not be directly clinically relevant to smokers or nicotine users under normal conditions, but that doesn't mean that it's meaningless. It is interesting and potentially meaningful in terms of the basic science and basic understanding of how potassium channels or other ion channels work. That understanding can lead to better treatments in the future even if it doesn't apply in these particular circumstances.

 

[JW50]

The work may not be directly clinically relevant to smokers or nicotine users under normal conditions, but that doesn't mean that it's meaningless. It is interesting and potentially meaningful in terms of the basic science and basic understanding of how potassium channels or other ion channels work. That understanding can lead to better treatments in the future even if it doesn't apply in these particular circumstances.

OK - meaningless is poor word choice. But - is there a human exposure that would create nicotine concentrations in a live human's blood that would approach 0.5 micromolar?

 

[CES]

I don't know of any offhand, and you may be right that people would likely be dealing with other toxic effects before the potassium channels would be affected. I'd also have to look up more about the potassium channels and see if anyone else has reported anything about the effects of nicotine on them. This reference is pretty old, but it backs up my earlier comment.

Relation of nicotine yield of cigarettes to blood nicotine concentrations in smokers. Br Med J. 1980 April 5; 280(6219): 972–976
M A Russell, M Jarvis, R Iyer, and C Feyerabend

Blood nicotine concentrations in individual smokers varied from 25 to 444 nmol/l (4 to 72 ng/ml). The average concentration, 203 nmol/l (33 ng/ml), was the same in the men and the women, although cigarette consumption was higher in the men. Despite large differences in nicotine yield, there was no relation between blood nicotine concentration and the type of cigarette smoked: smokers of plain, untipped cigarettes (1.9 mg nicotine), cigarettes with unventilated filters (1.3 mg nicotine), and cigarettes with ventilated filters (0.8 mg nicotine) had similar blood nicotine concentrations. Cigarette consumption was also similar in these three groups. The correlation between blood nicotine concentration and nicotine yield of cigarette, though significant, was low (0.21, p < 0.001), showing that the nicotine yield of the cigarettes accounted for only 4.4% of the variation in blood nicotine concentrations.

 

[JW50]

Is 444 nmol/l the same as 0.444 micromolar? If so, that's approaching 0.5. Kind of amazed at the 72 ng/ml. IOM book on Clearing the Smoke ( Clearing the Smoke: Assessing the Science Base for Tobacco Harm Reduction - see page 251)is suggestive of chain smokers reaching 30 or so ng/ml. Preliminary results from recent research on vaping coming out of Virginia is suggesting that unlimited vapers are approaching nicotine levels in 30 ng/ml range. Perhaps potassium channels are being affected for really heavy vaping? Perhaps more the reason for Douglas to try the no nicotine route for at least a while to see if improvement might occur?

 

[JW50]

CES - you might look at this thread: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...d-pressure-cholesterol-vaping-constantly.html

 

[JW50]

And this one: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...nbergs-study-yep-e-cigs-deliver-nicotine.html

 

[redcat1948]

Sorry for your health problems. I know you don't want surgery but my 82 year old non-smoking but very heavy father had afibs and took medication for a long time, couldn't get it under control, and finally had the surgery your doctor is recommending. He had the surgery ....after 1 heart attack, got stents, had another big event (I forget the name). Even though he knew it was risky with his other health problems & age, and not guaranteed to work he has not had any afibs since (1 year later) and is feeling better every day. If it really is afibs -- an "electrical" problem in the heart, aren't you getting sidetracked hoping it's really something else causing it? Or can cure it? Just my two cents and best of luck to you.

 

[CES]

Is 444 nmol/l the same as 0.444 micromolar? If so, that's approaching 0.5. Kind of amazed at the 72 ng/ml. IOM book on Clearing the Smoke ( Clearing the Smoke: Assessing the Science Base for Tobacco Harm Reduction - see page 251)is suggestive of chain smokers reaching 30 or so ng/ml. Preliminary results from recent research on vaping coming out of Virginia is suggesting that unlimited vapers are approaching nicotine levels in 30 ng/ml range. Perhaps potassium channels are being affected for really heavy vaping? Perhaps more the reason for Douglas to try the no nicotine route for at least a while to see if improvement might occur?

that's what i get for trying to think at 6am...yes 400nM is 0.4 uM. it is getting close to the minimum effective concentration that was tested. So, yeah,assuming that chain vaping results in nicotine blood levels equivelent to 400-500 nM, there is a slim possibility of nicotine effecting cardiac potassium channels. I always have fun trying to convert ng/ml to molarity.(and I'm too tired to do it right now)...but we generally use 100nM as a reasonable estimate of physiological range (i do all my work in a dish, not with people).

And, since the OP is concerned , he should definitely take the steps to alleviate his concern. I still find it interesting that his physicians don't seem to think that vaping is involved. though I'd also like to hear how he's been doing lately.


Thanks for the links- I'd been following the eissenberg thread. I'll be really interested in seeing the final published what range of serum nicotine levels vapers have.

 

[JW50]

I agree completely on "how he's been doing lately". I would think - but boy I'm no expert - that different individuals have different levels of sensitivity and affect to most anything. Not usually to variances of things that are hundreds and thousands times different that levels of known impact but perhaps the variances that are 2, maybe 3 times different. So where the research might show impact at X, it does not seem implausible to me that some individuals might show impact at maybe one half or one third X. And maybe some individuals might show no impact at 2 or 3 X. Douglas did not come across to me as excessive in his habits. On other hand he might be in that group of individuals that is affected at one third X. I hope he is listening (so to speak) and will try the no nic route and let all know - no change or big change. I agree that no concern from docs about vaping is a factor. On other hand, I wonder if those docs had a class in med school on e-cigs. My suspicion is that they did not. Doesn't mean they haven't learned after med school - but I guess I would be asking those docs if mine - tell me what you really know about e-cigs and where did you get that information. Douglas - please let us know if no nic solved or reduced your problems or if no nic left you with same problem as existed before your no nic trial.

 

[silkakc]

Douglas,

Just to throw this out there: lotsa meds can cause tachy and palps. The PPI I'm on does and not many folks know that it can affect your heart rhythm. If you are on prilosec, nexium or protonics, please research the complete list of side effects at a good site like:

Prilosec (Omeprazole) Drug Information: User Reviews, Side Effects, Drug Interactions and Dosage at RxList
Ask a Patient: Medicine Ratings and Health Care Opinions

P.S. they've tested your potassium levels throughout this, right? Low or high potassium causes heart problems.

Lori

 

[Burn3d]

However, and here's where things get strange/complicated. About 7-8 months ago, I had a 'spontaneous pnuemothorax' (100% lung collapse) in the left lung, accompanied by tachycardia (rapid-heart rate). Tachycardia is of course a normal side-effect of this as your heart is trying to pump twice as much oxygen from your 1 functioning lung. Went to emergency room, got lung re-inflated with a one-way air valve poked through my rib cage; 1-2 somewhat painful weeks later with some r&r — problem solved.

Wow..I have a genetic disposition..not sure what to call it to spontaneous pneumothorax I got it from my mother who also had to have the tubes then the full surgery where they staple the lung to the inner thoracic cavity.

Now if this was hereditary it usually(like 95%) happens during late adolescence. I had my first when I was 14..And my last..which also happened to be a complete collapse of one lung..when I was 17 and had the surgery.

Back when my mom had hers they just did the surgery..she was 16..It is nearly unheard of to have the initial hereditary spontaneous pneumothorax after 30..This is my understanding.

Now if it is caused by external factors and not hereditary..breathing incorrectly lifting weights can collapse a lung..Also breathing certain chemicals for extended periods of time can be a cause.

What happens to put it simply is either you are born with or something creates little blebs(sort of like blisters) on your lungs and they pop..weak spots on the lung..and air leaks into your thoracic cavity...NOW THE DANGER IS THIS AIR CAN PUSH YOUR HEART AROUND if the leak is big enough.

I had the tube 3x and then finally the surgery and have been fine ever since..all before I was 18.

Ive smoked since I was 13 and I know for a fact that smoking analogs do not cause this. I was told by all my doctors and surgeons that since I have a hereditary issue with my lung I'm an idiot to keep smoking BUT THERE IS NO DIRECT RELATIONSHIP. This was 22 years ago..maybe that has changed..
I've smoked up until a week ago ..was up to 2 packs a day and have not had any problems with spontaneous pneumothorax(even on the lung that is stapled if a bleb that they missed lets go I will hear a very faint gurgling noise).

*I hope some of this info has helped..Not sure..but be careful with even a mild collapsed lung as it can push your heart around..The thoracic cavity is essentially in a vacuum and likes to stay that way*

Have you worked with chemicals during your life..not well vented workplace using chemicals?

I wish you all the best and sending prayers your way