Attention all VA lawyers (who vape)

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Mac

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There is an individual at the VA health department that has decided he has the power to rewrite the ban himself to include e-cigs. I have read and reread the statutes and by no means is an e-cig lit or producing smoke. My understanding is that the letter of the law must be followed by any government official and that by writing an FAQ meant to scare bar owners away from e-cigs because the author has decided e-cigs are included (when they clearly are not) He is in fact breaking the law and is a huge liability to the office he represents. I wish I had more info to give you on this but I do not know who the author actually is. I only know that a couple of bar owners showed my salesperson a printout of it when he approached them. If you are a lawyer and you agree with what I am saying, I urge you to contact the VA health department and put a stop to this travesty!
 

jj2

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To all lawyers who don't vape---government institution making it's own laws.

To congress and the supreme court who do or don't vape---government institution making it's own laws.

There is an individual at the VA health department that has decided he has the power to rewrite the ban himself to include e-cigs. I have read and reread the statutes and by no means is an e-cig lit or producing smoke. My understanding is that the letter of the law must be followed by any government official and that by writing an FAQ meant to scare bar owners away from e-cigs because the author has decided e-cigs are included (when they clearly are not) He is in fact breaking the law and is a huge liability to the office he represents. I wish I had more info to give you on this but I do not know who the author actually is. I only know that a couple of bar owners showed my salesperson a printout of it when he approached them. If you are a lawyer and you agree with what I am saying, I urge you to contact the VA health department and put a stop to this travesty!
 

Mac

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That FAQ states that e-cigs are a cigarette and are included in the ban. Now my understanding is that an official at the health department doesn't just get to change the law as he see fits when writing an faq:

Here is the verbiage of the law itself which is also how VA defines smoking in 3 other places on the law books. I have highlited the key terminology in bold:


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§ 15.2-2820. (Effective December 1, 2009) Definitions.
As used in this chapter, unless the context requires a different meaning:
"Bar or lounge area" means any establishment or portion of an establishment devoted to the sale and service of alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises and where the sale or service of food or meals is incidental to the consumption of the alcoholic beverages.
"Educational facility" means any building used for instruction of enrolled students, including but not limited to any day-care center, nursery school, public or private school, college, university, medical school, law school, or career and technical education school.
"Health care facility" means any institution, place, building, or agency required to be licensed under Virginia law, including but not limited to any hospital, nursing facility or nursing home, boarding home, assisted living facility, supervised living facility, or ambulatory medical and surgical center.
"Private club" means an organization, whether incorporated or not, that (i) is the owner, lessee, or occupant of a building or portion thereof used exclusively for club purposes, including club or member sponsored events; (ii) is operated solely for recreational, fraternal, social, patriotic, political, benevolent, or athletic purposes, and only sells alcoholic beverages incidental to its operation; (iii) has established bylaws, a constitution, or both that govern its activities; and (iv) the affairs and management of which are conducted by a board of directors, executive committee, or similar body chosen by the members at an annual meeting.
"Private function" means any gathering of persons for the purpose of deliberation, education, instruction, entertainment, amusement, or dining that is not intended to be open to the public and for which membership or specific invitation is a prerequisite to entry.
"Private work place" means any office or work area that is not open to the public in the normal course of business except by individual invitation.
"Proprietor" means the owner or lessee of the public place, who ultimately controls the activities within the public place. The term "proprietor" includes corporations, associations, or partnerships as well as individuals.
"Public conveyance" or "public vehicle" means any air, land, or water vehicle used for the mass transportation of persons in intrastate travel for compensation, including but not limited to any airplane, train, bus, or boat that is not subject to federal smoking regulations.
"Public place" means any enclosed, indoor area used by the general public, including but not limited to any building owned or leased by the Commonwealth or any agency thereof or any locality, public conveyance or public vehicle, educational facility, hospital, nursing facility or nursing home, other health care facility, library, retail store of 15,000 square feet or more, auditorium, arena, theater, museum, concert hall, or other area used for a performance or an exhibit of the arts or sciences, or any meeting room.
"Recreational facility" means any enclosed, indoor area used by the general public and used as a stadium, arena, skating rink, video game facility, or senior citizen recreational facility.
"Restaurant" means any place where food is prepared for service to the public on or off the premises, or any place where food is served. Examples of such places include but are not limited to lunchrooms, short order places, cafeterias, coffee shops, cafes, taverns, delicatessens, dining accommodations of public or private clubs, kitchen facilities of hospitals and nursing homes, dining accommodations of public and private schools and colleges, and kitchen areas of local correctional facilities subject to standards adopted under § 53.1-68. "Restaurant" shall not include (i) places where packaged or canned foods are manufactured and then distributed to grocery stores or other similar food retailers for sale to the public, (ii) mobile points of service to the general public that are outdoors, or (iii) mobile points of service where such service and consumption occur in a private residence or in any location that is not a public place. "Restaurant" shall include any bar or lounge area that is part of such restaurant.
"Smoke" or "smoking" means the carrying or holding of any lighted pipe, cigar, or cigarette of any kind, or any other lighted smoking equipment, or the lighting, inhaling, or exhaling of smoke from a pipe, cigar, or cigarette of any kind.
"Theater" means any indoor facility or auditorium, open to the public, which is primarily used or designed for the purpose of exhibiting any motion picture, stage production, musical recital, dance, lecture, or other similar performance.
(2009, cc. 153, 154.)

An e-cigarette is by no means included in that definition. It is not lighted. There is no combustion whatsoever. And what you are exhaling is not smoke by any consideration. It is vapor the two as defined by law are very different. An e-cig violates this ban no more then an asthma inhaler would.
 

Mac

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Well, I don't know what this e-cigarette is you speak of. I use a PV. That crap says nothing about PV's. What are they going to do? Outlaw evaporation and theatrical smoke machines?
You are missing something here. Perception is key. Even though the FAQ is clearly wrong the bar owners who read it will adhere to it. This means that the health department will have succesfully created a de-facto ban. Something needs to be done about this and it needs to be done now.
 

Storyspinr

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Mar 24, 2009
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The law as written by the General Assembly makes no mention of the e cig, which, based on my reading, does NOT meet the definition of a cigarette under that law. I'm sure the legislators in the House who reluctantly approved this bill would be surprised to know a state agency has taken it upon itself to rewrite the law and would be very interested to know about this.
 

Zofryer

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You are missing something here. Perception is key. Even though the FAQ is clearly wrong the bar owners who read it will adhere to it. This means that the health department will have succesfully created a de-facto ban. Something needs to be done about this and it needs to be done now.


I've just spot checked with a few serving establishments and asked if my "nicotine inhaler" would be effected under this law and was told my "nicotine inhaler" would not be effected if it doesn't burn tobacco. I said it does not burn tobacco, which it does not. I've sent a letter to the author of the page explaining that his interpretation of what a "cigarette" was under the law would make a tea kettle, asthma inhaler, and spray deodorant a cigarette also, and suggested he stop making up laws. I have yet to hear back.
 

Mac

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Jun 5, 2009
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All up in your grill..
I've just spot checked with a few serving establishments and asked if my "nicotine inhaler" would be effected under this law and was told my "nicotine inhaler" would not be effected if it doesn't burn tobacco. I said it does not burn tobacco, which it does not. I've sent a letter to the author of the page explaining that his interpretation of what a "cigarette" was under the law would make a tea kettle, asthma inhaler, and spray deodorant a cigarette also, and suggested he stop making up laws. I have yet to hear back.
I doubt you will hear from them either. No one is going to be listened to on this short of a lawyer. Thus my plea. Nevertheless perhaps enough of an outpouring of VA citizens could carry Some weight. I personally think this individual is a hardcore anti with a grudge and won't listen until he is fired.(which could happen if the right people expose his fraud)
 
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novasteve

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I doubt you will hear from them either. No one is going to be listened to on this short of a lawyer. Thus my plea. Nevertheless perhaps enough of an outpouring of VA citizens could carry Some weight. I personally think this individual is a hardcore anti with a grudge and won't listen until he is fired.(which could happen if the right people expose his fraud)


I could try to look at this on my own behalf, but I have no standing to do anything given that this situation didn't happen to me, and I cannot without a license practice law for other people in VA... To first have standing, you would need to get a citation for smoking with the ecig. Then It hink even pro se, you would have such an easy time showing that an ecig is not covered by the statute.

However there might be a state regulation, perhaps defining "cigarette" or "smoke" further, and that could include ecigs. You need to check and see if there are any regulations on this. Those of you who live in Richmond would have a much easier time finding this out.. The question would be whether the statute was ambiguous.. But I think cigarette has a pretty clear meaning, and I think even a 14 year old could argue that if an ecig constitutes a cigarette, so would an inhaler for asthma, a child nebulizer, etc....
 

Slickstick

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ECF Veteran
There is an individual at the VA health department that has decided he has the power to rewrite the ban himself to include e-cigs. I have read and reread the statutes and by no means is an e-cig lit or producing smoke. My understanding is that the letter of the law must be followed by any government official and that by writing an FAQ meant to scare bar owners away from e-cigs because the author has decided e-cigs are included (when they clearly are not) He is in fact breaking the law and is a huge liability to the office he represents. I wish I had more info to give you on this but I do not know who the author actually is. I only know that a couple of bar owners showed my salesperson a printout of it when he approached them. If you are a lawyer and you agree with what I am saying, I urge you to contact the VA health department and put a stop to this travesty!


The letter shown to the bar owner from the Health Department could itself have actually been a fake. As I have seen "fake" letters to bar owners about karaoke laws as well. Not saying this is what happened, but it is possible.
 

bogiediver

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ECF Veteran
@ Mac -

From your OP - "I do not know who the author actually is". That may be true, but at the bottom of the FAQ is a contact person:

"Who at VDH can be contacted for additional information?
Gary Hagy
gary.hagy@vdh.virginia.gov
(804) 864-7455"

That would be a good place to start...

After reading the entire text (I'm not a lawyer, but do interpret laws for my work) - there is no way that e-cigs fall under this law. All provisions point to "smoke" or "smoking", which they have defined as:

""Smoke" or "smoking" means the carrying or holding of any lighted pipe, cigar, or cigarette of any kind, or any other lighted smoking equipment, or the lighting, inhaling, or exhaling of smoke from a pipe, cigar, or cigarette of any kind."

As indicated earlier:
- an e-cig is not "lighted"
- smoke is the result of combustion
- an e-cig has no combustion, therefore no smoke

I will be sending an email to the contact person - I'll let you know if I get a response.

-bogie
 

oldlady

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Nov 7, 2009
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Everybody affected--i.e., willing business owners and vapers--should contact their representatives to the Virginia House and Senate to express their concerns about this interpretation of the statute--immediately.

Meanwhile, anybody willing to get a citation--precisely so they can contest it--should simply ignore the health department FAQ. When the time comes (hopefully after the new Gov. is in office), a test case can be brought to the courts.

P.S.
No, I'm not a lawyer. But, if I were at home and knew a willing business owner (or maybe just one I didn't like) I'd do it!
 

Storyspinr

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Mar 24, 2009
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Speaker Howell's response, when I told him of the Dept. of Health "FAQs" sheet, was a short laugh and the comment "some government agencies like to write their own laws". The e cig was never mentioned in the bill because no legislator really knew about them at the time, and I suspect most politicians are going to resent a government agency including something in a completed, signed bill that was never debated or voted upon.

Oldlady is exactly right - everyone should contact their Delegate and/or Senator. Lots of complaining voters always gets their attention.

I had only a few minutes to give Howell a quick briefing on them (his only exposure was to some ads he had seen), but I emphasized they are battery-operated and therefore do not meet the definition of a "lighted cigarette", that they produce no odor, and they create vapor, not smoke.

Another important point for a politician, particularly in this economy, is that the approval of e cigs could keep some small restaurants and bars in business - those which have a very large smoking clientele but no space or money for a separate smoking room. Politicians need to see the e cig as an aide to small business, not just a placebo for smokers. I would strongly recommend anyone else speaking to their legislator point out that it might help save businesses severely impacted by the ban.

I would also recommend you go to the Virginia Smokers Alliance website, where you will find a list of who voted for and against the ban in both chambers; knowing that can help direct your method of approach since I believe those who were against the ban are more likely to be receptive to exempting the e cig.
 
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