Authentic makers sueing Cloners?
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Personally I find Kanger's stuff pretty decently priced, infact, low.
I would have thought a battery + tank would be $100 easy.
I would have thought a battery + tank would be $100 easy.
I've been reading some of the last pages of this thread & I'm trying to figure something out. Is the fact that it's (this thread) still going because someone wants a definitive cut & dry answer about whether purchasing clones with trademark logos is ethical? If so, I'd just like to say that that's not going to happen.
In order for there to be a definitive answer, everyone would have to interpret every part of the law the same way, and that includes the moral ones in one's own head. Personally, I'm perfectly ok with that. I would prefer to use my own brain to decide whether I think something is ethical for me or not.
In order for there to be a definitive answer, everyone would have to interpret every part of the law the same way, and that includes the moral ones in one's own head. Personally, I'm perfectly ok with that. I would prefer to use my own brain to decide whether I think something is ethical for me or not.
That's with ANY kind of product. You're going to have both sides. I do research on every other kind of product I buy. If newcomers come here for advice, they should just read the stickies. 80% of the rest is garbage and topics like these that go nowhere and have no valuable information.
I keep seeing people referring to "research" and "development". What R&D?
Do people need to research how electricity works? How threads work? How plastic insulates? There is zero research involved in making a mod. Development... well, if you don't have a lathe, that's going to be expensive because you have to buy a lathe. If not, you're talking $50 in materials and a few hours in a CAD program. It's not like you need a Ph.D. in materials science to make a mod.
Develop the switch? How difficult is that? It's a tube within a tube that's got a static insulator on one end and a spring or magnets (you know, ICP said it best "Magnets, how do they work?") and that's it. You have to research what the thread for a 510 is, I guess.
People seem to think that by buying an legit authentic you're buying a Ferrari, which is clearly not true. The increase in performance electrically is going to be essentially negligible as long as the threads are relatively tight.
Now, I don't have any problem with people paying or asking $200 for a metal tube. I might snicker behind my hand at the buyer, but who am I to say you shouldn't spend your money on what they think is worth it.
What I do have a problem with is availability. Authentic Chinese mods are junk not because of materials or manufacturing process, they're junk because of design. Look at the pbusardo review of the new Innokin 134 mech. If I could find the mod I wanted in stock (and this goes for practically all makers) I'd be a lot more likely to buy it. But instead every damned mod out there is in an ultra-limited production run. ("LOL it's on our site, and it will stay there, but it will never be back in stock.")
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: most mech mod makers are hobbyists at best. A professional looks for ways to maintain quality control while at least attempting to keep up with demand.
You know what companies are professional? ProVape. I don't like their designs, but I respect the hell out of the fact that they're run like an actual business instead of like some dude making extra money out of his basement. Evolv is also a good example. They have an actual manufacturing space. And they actually try to keep up with demand. They come out with actual new ideas.
From what I've seen authentic makers go out of their way to make sure that there is a massive disparity between demand and supply. Because if the supply was there, everyone would realize that this Nemesis or this Stingray aren't worth $200... they're worth more like $65. It's false scarcity that keeps prices up, and when that goes away (ie people with actual manufacturing capabilities getting on board) prices drop.
That's why lawsuits are coming out. The hobbyist manufacturers are terrified of losing their cash cow. They can't make anything actually technological. They can't make batteries, they can't make testers, they can't make chips, so they make threading and charge exorbitant prices because they only made 100 of them.
So I say let them sue. They can't claim patent, cause there's no way a mech is going to rise to the standard of a patentable product (one could probably argue that a flashlight patent covers the design). They might have a claim on artwork and company logo, but it seems to me that a lot of the artwork out there is already illegally used. (What is that box mod with the transformer logo on it? GLWT lawsuit guys.)
Until manufacturers get off their butts and invest some of their massive profits back into manufacturing capacity, China is going to clone, the rest of the world is going to buy, and a "lucky" few will get authentics and be able to feel superior.
Also, I challenge any professional machinist to tell me what is difficult about making any mech.
Do people need to research how electricity works? How threads work? How plastic insulates? There is zero research involved in making a mod. Development... well, if you don't have a lathe, that's going to be expensive because you have to buy a lathe. If not, you're talking $50 in materials and a few hours in a CAD program. It's not like you need a Ph.D. in materials science to make a mod.
Develop the switch? How difficult is that? It's a tube within a tube that's got a static insulator on one end and a spring or magnets (you know, ICP said it best "Magnets, how do they work?") and that's it. You have to research what the thread for a 510 is, I guess.
People seem to think that by buying an legit authentic you're buying a Ferrari, which is clearly not true. The increase in performance electrically is going to be essentially negligible as long as the threads are relatively tight.
Now, I don't have any problem with people paying or asking $200 for a metal tube. I might snicker behind my hand at the buyer, but who am I to say you shouldn't spend your money on what they think is worth it.
What I do have a problem with is availability. Authentic Chinese mods are junk not because of materials or manufacturing process, they're junk because of design. Look at the pbusardo review of the new Innokin 134 mech. If I could find the mod I wanted in stock (and this goes for practically all makers) I'd be a lot more likely to buy it. But instead every damned mod out there is in an ultra-limited production run. ("LOL it's on our site, and it will stay there, but it will never be back in stock.")
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: most mech mod makers are hobbyists at best. A professional looks for ways to maintain quality control while at least attempting to keep up with demand.
You know what companies are professional? ProVape. I don't like their designs, but I respect the hell out of the fact that they're run like an actual business instead of like some dude making extra money out of his basement. Evolv is also a good example. They have an actual manufacturing space. And they actually try to keep up with demand. They come out with actual new ideas.
From what I've seen authentic makers go out of their way to make sure that there is a massive disparity between demand and supply. Because if the supply was there, everyone would realize that this Nemesis or this Stingray aren't worth $200... they're worth more like $65. It's false scarcity that keeps prices up, and when that goes away (ie people with actual manufacturing capabilities getting on board) prices drop.
That's why lawsuits are coming out. The hobbyist manufacturers are terrified of losing their cash cow. They can't make anything actually technological. They can't make batteries, they can't make testers, they can't make chips, so they make threading and charge exorbitant prices because they only made 100 of them.
So I say let them sue. They can't claim patent, cause there's no way a mech is going to rise to the standard of a patentable product (one could probably argue that a flashlight patent covers the design). They might have a claim on artwork and company logo, but it seems to me that a lot of the artwork out there is already illegally used. (What is that box mod with the transformer logo on it? GLWT lawsuit guys.)
Until manufacturers get off their butts and invest some of their massive profits back into manufacturing capacity, China is going to clone, the rest of the world is going to buy, and a "lucky" few will get authentics and be able to feel superior.
Also, I challenge any professional machinist to tell me what is difficult about making any mech.
Since there is no talent or xpertise involved then you should be able to make your own mod and save a ton of money.
I don't have a lathe. I specifically said that if you don't have one, development would be extremely expensive. I would also posit that there isn't a mech maker out there that didn't have access to a lathe, because if you don't there would be zero profit in making any mod.
Thanks for playing though. Have a free token to try again.
I highly doubt every mod maker has a machine shop. Either they know a friend with one, or they use one at their school.
I find it fascinating that so many people know so much about nothing they know about. 
Isn't that the internet in general? Of course I was able to contain my self when my 12 year old said " Daddy, yes it true. yes it is.. yes it is. I read it on the internet" She was so exasperated that laughing at her would have crushed her.
In terms of this thread? The OP asked a question. Those of us who answered contributed. Just like any other thread on any other board.... There are 50000000000 tangents.
" One thing I will say is, just because they say its a clone doesn't mean its not counterfeit. "
Thank you.
Is joker a mod? I have no clue. I am not the fanboi type. Well looked at the post and figured yes he/she is.
Anyway..
"As stated previously, it is illegal to sell counterfeit merchandise, that would even include a member here selling as well but that isn't really the reason here on ECF, not the main reason anyway. "
Doesn't state anything about discussing them....which I think was the thought behind it.
BTW
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-forum-rules/51178-forum-rules.html
I will be interested in seeing where the no clone discussion rule is.
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Mr. Zen, Mr. Svoemesto, and Mr. Nemesis probably made a lot of money off their work. I have a simple question. If developing a mod and selling it is so simple as some suggest...
THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU DO IT?!?!?!
THEN WHY DIDN'T YOU DO IT?!?!?!
Too much money needs to be invested. That's why we're buying clones
So then they brought something to the table we can't. So then they deserve to reap the rewards.
In other words...let someone else pay for their investment. It aint gonna be you though!!!
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