Bad experiences at B&M....

[Papa_Lazarou]

I'm fortunate to have multiple B&M's where I live. Most are kinda sketchy - young kids who seem to feel immortal in general and who dis people who don't want to go chase some clouds on a .3 ohm quad coil build. One, however, will NOT build lower than 1.2 ohms for customers. They also host free build seminars in the store where they educate about the build procedure, but not before discussing battery safety thoroughly, including pics and vids of exploded batteries. We need more of that in our world.

 

[edyle]

I wouldn't blink if somebody wants to start with a VAMO and Protank. That's fine, and you can get the bases for the tank off the shelf in a nice, safe ohm level. If somebody wants that, more power to you.

Even if somebody wants to start with a mech and sub-ohm, as long as the battery's up to snuff and they're educated on it, I'll keep my mouth shut (I actually do have problems with that, but far be it from me and all that as I think you should have some experience before going that far).

Here they have no idea what they want, get sold a mech and a sub-ohm with a sub-standard battery, and not only have no idea what they have but neither does the store. Now I not only have problems with it, I'm downright furious.

That's an accident waiting to happen, and when it does you know they're going to Blame vaping. Which is actually kind of accurate in this case since it's from an actual shop that specializes in these things and is supposed to have a friggin' clue.

At least I only stick my rebuilds in my own face, and those measure 2.2 ohm--not exactly the bleeding edge of safety.

That sums it up

 

[numbskull]

I don't recall the name of the B&M, but there's one in California that requires customers to sign a waiver if a sub-ohm coil is built in-store. I would like to see that policy replicated over to all B&M's. Basically, in a nutshell, it states that the customer understands the potential risks and assumes all liability. To me, this covers the B&M in case someone does do something stupid. Hopefully they'll never need it, but it is a good idea, IMO. Most B&M's wouldn't be able to recover from a lawsuit.

It really wouldn't take much time or effort to put together a basic pamphlet for those new to sub-ohm builds. Including this with mech and other purchases that are typically used for sub-ohm building would be rather impressive to me. Any B&M that actually took the time and a little bit of effort to go the extra mile would earn my business.

This just reinforces my stance that all B&M's should be the source for education. This is a customer service industry. Any B&M owner that is oblivious to what their employees are doing doesn't need to be in business or they need to hire managers to assist them and enforce any and all levels of training.

^^ This! At the very least B&M's should be educating. As a vaper AND a 10 year+ salesman and customer service agent, product knowledge has always been #1. How can you sell what you don't understand? How can you service what you don't understand? Faking it only goes so far and does a disservice to the customer.

Were the market not over saturated in my area, I would love to open a B&M! With a heavy focus on educating the entire smoking/vaping community. It seems that most of these owners are just trying to cash in on the raising "trend". I'm terrified to send my mom into local B&M's with her ego twist and pt mini just to buy juice.

There are a couple that I do enjoy, and appreciate, here in my area. Great people, very knowledgeable AND responsible. Kudos to them. (one in particular does have you sign a waiver no matter what coil they build)

 

[WarHawk-AVG]

Question

Does CASAA have an official flier "Battery Safety" that B&M owners or even customers can print up and either give to customer or post up around the store for people to read

Kind of like a public service announcement

CASAA Printable Material

I see FAQ sheets and stuff...maybe they need a "BATTERY SAFETY" bullet point checklist sheet

Maybe something like this, condensed down to a single sheet
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/includes/pdf/Panasonic_LiIon_Precautions.pdf

or this

General Guidelines and Warnings

• 1)Use specific Lithium Polymer/Li-ion charger only. Do not use a NiMH or NiCd charger- Failure to do so may a cause fire, which may result in personal injury and property damage.
  
• 2)Never charge batteries unattended.When charging LiPo/Li-ion batteries you should always remain in constant observation to monitor the charging process and react to potential problems that may occur.
  
• 3) Some LiPo/Li-ion chargers on the market may have technical deficiencies that may cause it to charge the LiPo/Li-ion batteries incorrectly or at an improper rate. It is your responsibility solely to assure the charger you purchased works properly. Always monitor charging process to assure batteries are being charged properly. Failure to do so may result in fire.
  
• 4)If at any time you witness a battery starting to balloon, swell up, smoke or hot, discontinue charging process immediately, disconnect the battery and observe it in a safe place for approximately 15 minutes.This may cause the battery to leak, and the reaction with air may cause the chemicals to ignite, resulting in fire.
  
• 5) Since delayed chemical reaction can occur, it is best to observe the battery as a safety precaution.observation should occur in a safe area outside of any building or vehicle and away from any combustible material.
• 6)Wire lead shorts can cause fire!If you accidentally short the wires, the batterymustbe placed in a safe area for observation for approximately 15 minutes. Additionally, if a short occurs and contact is made with metal (such as rings on your hand), severe injuries may occur due to the conductibility of electric current.
  
• 7) A battery can still ignite even after 10 minutes.
  
• 8) In the event of a crash due to bad shipment or other reason, you must remove battery for observation and place in a safe open area away from any combustible material for approximately 15 minutes.
  
• 9) If for any reason you need to cut the terminal wires, it will be necessary to cut each wire separately, ensuring the wires to not touch each other or a short may occur, potentially causing a fire.
  
• 10)To solder a connector: Remove insulating tape of Red wire and solder to positive terminal of a connector, then remove insulating tape of Black wire and solder to the negative terminal of connector. Be careful not to short the wire lead. If you accidentally cause the battery to short, place it in a safe open space and observe the battery for approximately 15 minutes.A battery may swell or even possibly catch fire after a short time.
  
• 11) Never store or charge battery pack inside your car in extreme temperatures, since extreme temperature could ignite fire.
  
• 12) Never drop the batteries.
  
• 13) We suggest you put the battery in an enclosure to protect it from damages by liquid or dropping from height accidentally.

Charging Process

• 1) Never charge batteries unattended.
• 2)Put battery in the fireproof container and charge in an isolated area, away from other flammable materials.Always have fire extinguisher for emergency use.
• 3) Let battery cool down to ambient temperature before charging.
• 4)Do not charge batteries packs in series.Charge each battery pack individually. Failure to do so may result in incorrect battery recognition and charging functions. Overcharging may occur and fire may be the result.
• 5) When selecting the cell count or voltage for charging purposes, select the cell count and voltage as it appears on the battery label. As a safety precaution, please confirm the information printed on the battery is correct.

a. Example: The label on a 2-Cell battery pack in series will read charge as 2-Cell (7.4V), or may cause fire. You must select 2-Cell for charging.
b. Example: The label on a 3-Cell battery pack in series will read charge as 3-Cell (11.1V), or may cause fire. You must select 3-Cell for charging.
​

• 6) Selecting a cell count other than the one printed on the battery (always confirm label is correct), can cause fire.
• 7) You must select the charge rate current that does not exceed the battery's allowed charging current. (Please double check the battery's specification)

Storage & Transportation

• 1) Store battery at room temperature between 40 and 80 degrees F for best results.
• 2) Do not expose battery pack to direct sunlight (heat) for extended periods.
• 3) When transporting or temporarily storing in a vehicle, temperature range should be greater than 20 degrees F but no more than 150 degrees F.
• 4) Storing battery at temperatures greater than 170 degrees F for extended periods of time (more than 2 hours) may cause damage to battery and possible fire.

Caring for

• 1) Charge battery with good quality Lithium Polymer charger. A poor quality charger can be dangerous.
• 2) Set voltage and current correctly (failure to do so can cause fire).
• 3) Please check cell voltage after the first charge.
• Example 1-Cell: 4.2V (4.15 to 4.22)
• 2-Cell: 8.4V (8.32 to 8.44)
• 3-Cell: 12.6V (12.48 to 12.66)
• 4-Cell: 16.8V (16.64 to 16.88)
• 5-Cell: 18.5V (18.30 to 18.60)
• 4)Do not discharge battery to a level below 3V per cell under load.Deep discharge below 3V per cell can deteriorate battery performance.
• 5) Use caution to avoid puncture of the cell. Puncture of cells may cause a fire.
• 6) Charging the battery every 2 months to keep it fresh if you don't use it.

They have a tri-fold brocure on e-cigs...thier awesome graphics folks could easily whip up a universal "battery safety" tri-fold like this
http://casaa.org/uploads/CASAA-Ecig-TriFold-Brochure.pdf

 

[Sucker_dad]

I'm a bit harsh when it comes to B&M's due to the numerous bad experiences, so here's my 2 cents.

Any B&M that takes on the responsibility of hiring new employees and selling to the general public should have enough common sense to be there and train their employees on what they sell and the services that they provide. If they can't keep up with the industry and keep their employees on track and up to date as well, they deserve and hopefully will go out of business very soon.

IMO, all B&M's should have staff that are trained to use, troubleshoot and build on any mod or system they sell and they should be available all day - if that means hiring more employees, oh well - perhaps you should have thought about it when opening up shop instead of trying to just cash in on a growing niche market.

If they can't bother to do that, they have no business selling that specific item. B&M's aren't Walmart, they are filling a specific niche and probably attract more new vapers on a daily basis than online shops since they all the customer to touch and feel what they're buying before they buy. It's the B&M's responsibility to educate.

I wonder if you also expect all employees of an online store to be able to diagnose problems and build on any product they sell. I assure you they don't have that capacity nor will they ever. Lot's of shops that sell Provaris. I wouldn't expect any of them to have employees there to diagnose or fix it. That is for Provape to do. I do see that you put in the caveat that your a "bit harsh", I will add that your completely unrealistic. EVERY B&M open today is there to make money. That is what almost every business does. I absolutely agree they should not be promoting sub-ohm to ANYONE let alone newbies. THey should not be building sub-ohm either. A small store could easily have 500-1000 products in it. I don't expect anyone to know everything there is to know about everything.

 

[Dconnor]

I've learned to take a good look at what the B&M employee is vaping. Usually tells me lot right there.

 

[BillyWJ]

Wanted to tell a quick story and see what kind of bad experiences anyone has had at their local B&M....

So a good friend of mine got into vaping shortly after I did. Because of conflicting schedules, we don't hang much anymore. So when we did a few weeks ago I was surprised to see him sporting a new mech (Nemmi clone) and Igo-l he had just baught from our local B&M. We chatted for a while, and in convo he says to me "Hey my thing isn't burning right, can you fix it for me" lol. I kindly oblige since I love the opportunity to rebuild!

I check out the build that the B&M hooked him up with (dual coil, round wire with silica) and see one side is firing much faster than the other. I decide to not just rebuild it for him but also teach him how to rebuild. I begin to explain resistance, volts, amps etc. I put his Igo-L on my ohm reader and was appalled to see that his build was .30 ohms!!! .30 OHMS!!!

Why is a B&M giving noobs sub-ohm builds?! On a cheap 18650 battery (which they also sold him with no mention of batt safety). Look, don't get me wrong, I sub-ohm all the time (usually not that low, but on occasion I will) but there is a major difference between a B&M building sub-ohms for noobs and me an educated rebuilder and safety advocate. I was furious! I went to this place a few days later to pick up some liquid and struck up a convo with the kid working. He says to me "I don't even check my builds anymore"...... WOW!!! I mean, if thats your style ok I guess. I can build my dual coil .8 ribbon wire with 3 wraps on 3mm ekowool and know it will be around .5 ohm because I've used it plenty of times.....but c'mon!!!! Don't know if that was the same guy who did my friends build or not.

My main issues with this are 2 things.
1. My friend was putting something in his face that was potentially dangerous to him and those in close proximity.
2. The last thing the vaping community needs is a batt failing on people who have no clue whats going on.

TL;DR-

Local B&M is giving inexperienced vapers sub-ohm coils! Not explaining batt safety, or even checking to make sure their batts are safe to use with a particular build!!!

Thoughts? Comments? Similar situations? What do you think?

I think I would have a serious talk with the owner of the shop, his employee is putting customers at risk, and setting the owner up for litigation if anything happens.

 

[Fizzpop]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I fully agree with the OP and this one.

I've been critical of the growing trend of some B&M's who are selling mechanical mods with sub-ohm RBA builds to novice vapers. This started in California and the practice has quickly spread across the nation. We began seeing this here on ECF a few months ago when new vapers would come on the forum seeking information about why their new mod was no longer working. Upon questioning, we found that this was their very first e-cig product. The salesman made the coil for them, and sold the battery with the mod and RBA. Gave no instruction or education at all, just told them to go home and "make some clouds."

Sometimes the hot spring collapsed causing the battery to no longer fire (one of the few safety preventions that a mechanical mod has against a battery going into thermal runaway). Sometimes a poster would say the fire button, the mod, or the battery was too hot to touch. (Another sign that something is terribly wrong with the setup.) Often the mod is sold with an inadequate battery for the resistance of a coil. (Sub-ohm coils require special high drain batteries which have a 30 amp limit; most common high drain batteries only have a 10 amp limit; protected ICR batteries are not high drain and should never be used for sub-ohm coils.)

Another relatively new vaper purchased his first RBA at one of these shops. He'd done some of his homework on batteries and knew he didn't have one of the 30 amp batteries, so asked the salesman to make a 1.0 ohm coil. When the customer got home, he checked the resistance of the coil (which the salesman didn't do in the store) with his own multimeter, and was shocked to see that the coil he built was 0.2 ohms.

I don't know the answer or solution to the above practices of B&M's who are doing this to their customers. It borders on negligence and serves no good for the customers or the entire vaping community. I do know that the local B&M that I frequent has a store policy that their employees not make coils less than 1.0 ohm for their customers.

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First: Amen Badditude. This, 1000 times this.

Look, we need to police ourselves. This is exactly the kind of ....e that will result in the FDA only approving pre-filled carts from BT for cig-a-like devices. If you want to continue to vape in freedom, you need to shut this kind of stuff down, and quickly.

 

[edyle]

This issue issue about nicotine, or smoking, or the chemistry of vaping;

Its about Consumer Electronics Safety.

 

[K_Tech]

Thoughts? Comments? Similar situations? What do you think?

If I rebuilt or repaired something at my job without testing and documentation, I'd be out of a job. I don't even use coils for myself without checking resistance a few times, to build one and hand it to someone without checking - ESPECIALLY on a battery of unknown pedigree - is beyond irresponsible.

"Hey, hang on to this for a second. Lemme just pull the pin first"

 

[Nikkita6]

Wow, that is just ... as a rule, I don't buy from B&M's, and I heard of these kinds of stories one too many times.

 

[Rocketpunk]

Not all b&m's are sketchy. Look at AltSmoke in Ohio, Mountain Oak Vapors and Vintage Vapors in Tennessee, Heather's Heavenly Vapes in Georgia... These are all stand-up, high-quality vendors. And if you want to see how awesome someone can go with the design, look, and "feel" of a B&M, you need to visit Vintage Vapors in Chattanooga, TN. The owner is also a theme designer for other businesses, and he made the store up to look like this sweet, turn-of-the-century steampunk saloon. Check their page out on FB (btw, I have no association with them in the least, I just used to live in Chattanooga and am excited they finally got a sweet B&M).

One last thing about those TN b&m's: their prices were almost Internet-level. I have no idea how they make a profit, but they're doing well.

 

[Steamix]

Your eyes are like (?)(?)
If theirs are like ($)($) instead of (!)(!), take your $$ elsewhere

 

[cags]

I wonder if you also expect all employees of an online store to be able to diagnose problems and build on any product they sell. I assure you they don't have that capacity nor will they ever. Lot's of shops that sell Provaris. I wouldn't expect any of them to have employees there to diagnose or fix it. That is for Provape to do. I do see that you put in the caveat that your a "bit harsh", I will add that your completely unrealistic. EVERY B&M open today is there to make money. That is what almost every business does. I absolutely agree they should not be promoting sub-ohm to ANYONE let alone newbies. THey should not be building sub-ohm either. A small store could easily have 500-1000 products in it. I don't expect anyone to know everything there is to know about everything.

when I started I wished and wished there was a b&m to help me. I understood that buying online is buying blind, but when I go into a store I expect to be helped....to be able to see and touch the items....and learn how to use them. otherwise I would buy everything I own online. I agree however that many b&m's are just there to make money.

ps, I do not go to B&Ms - don't need to - I found what I like online

 

[Muero]

Honestly, most B&Ms in my area (TN) aren't that bad. The Op seems to have run across an egregious example. In my experiences, it's mainly been them selling cheap products like clones or crappy mods because most noobs are coming in with a price range in mind. I mainly buy in person because I like to taste juices before buying online. The average price for 10ml being around 5 bucks (which isn't too great) but having bought stuff online that frankly sucked or was great but cost 8 bucks or whatever. After going to 3 or 4 B&Ms I finally found a store that was good. Sure, they still sell crappy products as in no high end mods or attys, but they're good for juices and wire and such. Plus mine actually have techs on staff for rebuilding questions.

 

[Sucker_dad]

I agree however that many b&m's are just there to make money.

It's amazing how that one word being added changes completely the meaning of my statement. I never said that any B&M was in it just to make money. I said they are in it to make money. I know a lot of people will say there is no difference, but there is. There are a lot of stores that are in it because they can make a living doing something that they really enjoy while they make money. But unless someone is very wealthy and doesn't care, they have to make money. But the OP was not about this topic, let's not derail the thread with thes. I agree wholeheartedly that you should not be pushing sub-ohm set ups to a newbie. I don't think any smart business owner would do it either. Let people get that info elsewhere. Building a .3 ohm coil and giving it to someone who doesn't know anything about it is stupid business. I would be more impressed if they told me this is not safe for beginners, here is how a coil should be built.

 

[MorpheusPA]

This issue issue about nicotine, or smoking, or the chemistry of vaping;

Its about Consumer Electronics Safety.

True, but in this case the distinction between vaping and electronics safety is razor-thin. Nor do I trust the general public to be able to distinguish the very fine semantic difference between the chemistry of vaping and vaping itself.

 

[cags]

It's amazing how that one word being added changes completely the meaning of my statement. I never said that any B&M was in it just to make money. I said they are in it to make money. ..............

ok, i'll modify my statement
I believe there are B&Ms who are just out to make money. I've gone to 2 B&Ms. in my opinion, neither seemed that interested in actually helping me.

 

[Sucker_dad]

ok, i'll modify my statement
I believe there are B&Ms who are just out to make money. I've gone to 2 B&Ms. in my opinion, neither seemed that interested in actually helping me.

I would not argue with that as I am sure there are stores that got into it for nothing more than money. I wasn't trying to be confrontational, just clear about the point of my statement. I agree 100% there are stores like that. As the industry grows they will weed themselves out of the picture because they will have to work harder to make a buck.

 

[Baditude]

Part of the problem is kids see those You Tube videos of people blowing humongous clouds of vapor like a dragon's breath. They say to themselves, "I WANT THAT!"



Never mind what it entails to acheive those clouds of vapor, or how dangerous the setups actually are if you don't have the right equipment or know what you are doing. Most people have no idea how dangerous Li-ion batteries can be, and how sub-ohm coils are pushing the limits of safe battery pratices.