Ban on Internet Sales?

[Wolf308]

I just wanted to check. I overheard a conversation briefly today when I went to the local place to pick up some atty heads. The customer was telling the shop owner that he heard "they" are trying to ban the sale of e-liquid online. I didn't hear the entire conversation as I got there midway through and was in a hurry so I left before it was over. Is there any truth to what this guy was telling the shop owner?

 

[ingerri]

sorry havent heard anything...they sell tobacco and "tubes" online so i dont know what the problem with ejuice would be.

 

[TennDave]

No law yet (at least federally) but there is a fear that this can happen when the FDA renders its decision regarding ecigs and nicotine.

 

[DantesInferno]

I can definitely see the FDA poking its head in the matter to try and regulate it. Government gets in everything else. Cigarettes where I'm at are already 7$/pk so they get what they want. People quit smoking. How dare we try to substitute the nicotine dependence by using ecigs. They'd rather we buy the cigarettes so they can tax the hell out of us.

 

[mwa102464]

Worst case scenario is still we can buy a bottle of VG/PG/Flavoring, then add our purchased nic from the black market, so much Hype rutcous about all this. Unless they regulate a lot of other things on the internet like buying any drugs, or just about whatever you freaking want I just dont see how there going to stop it or why at this point, what evadence do they have that someone was harmed from vaping to date ? none,,,,,, All these politicians we have in the USA today should all be investigated from the top down and most would end up in jail, We need to keep fighting the FDA and anyone who wants to ban anything to do with this industry that's for sure, never quit fighting them.

 

[Fezzed]

Apparently the shooter in Colorado bought most of his ammunition online. It's completely legal and no one has any plans to regulate that online business. BUT, if I want to save my own life and stop smoking cigs, the FDA has something to say about that!

It seems that eliquid is more of a danger to society than bullets.

 

[grandmato5]

The FDA has said they will issue their Deeming Regulation for ecigs this summer. Along with that Deeming Regulation should be a list of proposed regulations specifically for regulating ecigs. Until we see what the FDA proposes there is no way to know for certain what those regulations will be. History of the FDA and ecigs indications we certainly are not going to like their proposed regulations but until we see them in writting we wait to find out exactly what they propose.

 

[Stubby]

When and if the deeming regulation occurs another thing to watch out for is if e-liquid gets rolled into the PACT act.

The PACT act went into effect in June of 2010. This made it illegal to ship tobacco through the US mail, except for pipe tobacco and cigars. It is still legal to ship tobacco with UPS but requires an adult signature on delivery. UPS has a policy of not delivering cigarettes, both RYO or ready mades, but does deliver smokeless tobacco, with an adult signature of course. The PACt act also requires the seller to collect the taxes. This can be a nightmare as every state has a different tax rate on smokeless tobacco. Venders also have to register with every state on an individual basis. When the PACT act went into effect several small snus venders went out of business as the red tape was a nightmare. They simple didn't have the resources to deal with it. If e-liquid got rolled into the PACT act I would expect most venders would be gone in short order. There would be just a few large venders who would have the resources to deal with it. Without a doubt prices would go up.

Another aspect of a deeming regulation is that every e-liquid would have to be registered with the FDA. This means every flavor, and possible every nicotine strength. This is yet another bureaucratic nightmare. If the FDA deems that e-liquid was not on the market before February 15 2007 it is not grandfathered, so a whole new set of problems occurs. I'm not quite sure what happens at that point except that it is not good.

Some states have laws that prevent delivery of any tobacco product from internet sails. The two that I know of are Maryland and Wisconsin. I can still get snus in Wisconsin but I can't buy it from any US based locations, except brick and morter. I have to get it shipped from Sweden. On my last order shipping alone was $55.

The PACT act has been a very bad thing for snus and nasal snuff users. The price of shipping is very high as there is an extra charge because of the need for an adult signature. A deeming regulation by the FDA, along with e-liqiud getting rolled into the PACT act (these are two separate issues but a deeming regulation would open the door for the later) would very likely wipe out most venders, and those that survived would be forced to charge much more. Just having to register every flavor and nicotine strength with the FDA would alone wipe out nearly all small venders.

 

[rwoodin]

From what I see on the FDA website, FDA is pretty much already laid out it's 'Draft Guidance for Industry;Availability:Modified Risk Tobacco Product Applications'. In skimming through the document, it don't look to good for the home team. Here is a snippet of the draft doc pertaining to interstate sales...

...'Modified risk tobacco products are tobacco products that are sold
or distributed for use to reduce harm or the risk of tobacco-related
disease associated with commercially marketed tobacco products (section
911(b)(1) of the FD&C Act). No person may introduce or deliver for
introduction into interstate commerce any modified risk tobacco product
unless an order issued pursuant to section 911(g) of the FD&C Act is
effective with respect to that product (section 911(a) of the FD&C
Act).'...

And it also looks to me like they are still regulating ecigs under the FD&C act. I thought the whole basis of the successful NJOY case was that ecigs are not able to be regulated under the FD&C act?

Here is the link to the draft doc. that was posted on FDA this past April... Draft Guidance for Industry; Availability: Modified Risk Tobacco Product Applications

 

[CapitalPuff]

The FDA has said they will issue their Deeming Regulation for ecigs this summer. Along with that Deeming Regulation should be a list of proposed regulations specifically for regulating ecigs. Until we see what the FDA proposes there is no way to know for certain what those regulations will be. History of the FDA and ecigs indications we certainly are not going to like their proposed regulations but until we see them in writting we wait to find out exactly what they propose.

And we ALL must take part in the opportunity for public comments that will come after they make public their deeming regulation.

 

[TennDave]

And we ALL must take part in the opportunity for public comments that will come after they make public their deeming regulation.

Well, the post by rwoodin is accurate in that ecigs can't be marketed as harm reduction (certainly can't advertise as such), so it falls under one of the new tobacco products, such as roll your own, etc. So, ecigs won't have to go through the regamarol of other products that are competing with already in-place harm reduction product. As far as the FDA is concerned, ecigs are not cessation devices. That said, they still intend to regulate it.. That said, if some ecig company wants to introduce their products as "harm reduction," then they must submit their products for testing and pay the huge monies (millions) that it will take to establish themselves. Since most ecig vendors are mom and pop types, certainly they don't have the funds for this and therefore their collective azzes are hanging from branches, awaiting whatever regulations the FDA decides. Many will have to close. Some will find ways around the new regulations and somehow survive. It isn't going to be easy for any of them.... Of course those who suffer will be us users and the potential smoker who could have switched, but it's to much of a hassle and expense to switch at that point unless they want to pick up a pen-style ecig from their local gas station or Walgreens (at a higher expense than now). These will most likely be limited in flavor and potency as well as in sealed cartos- at least this is the direction I see this all going

 

[Our House]

History of the FDA and ecigs indications we certainly are not going to like their proposed regulations but until we see them in writting we wait to find out exactly what they propose.

Our best hope is that the FDA, after having its ... handed to it in both the district and appeals courts, will not try to push its luck on top of it by proposing unreasonable regulations. Also, there's a public hearing period, right? If yes, that may be even more the reason for the FDA to "tone it down a bit" this summer and propose regs that most people (even esmokers) can live with.

 

[TTK]

I believe Intellicig is going through clinical trials. Will they market their product as a harm reduction product?

 

[TennDave]

I believe Intellicig is going through clinical trials. Will they market their product as a harm reduction product?

Yes, my understanding is that is their intention. I read that they were applying for this in the UK, do you know if they have also applied to the FDA over here in the US?

 

[DantesInferno]

Apparently the shooter in Colorado bought most of his ammunition online. It's completely legal and no one has any plans to regulate that online business. BUT, if I want to save my own life and stop smoking cigs, the FDA has something to say about that!

It seems that eliquid is more of a danger to society than bullets.

Lmao. Boy that's sure how are government works isn't it.

 

[TTK]

Yes, my understanding is that is their intention. I read that they were applying for this in the UK, do you know if they have also applied to the FDA over here in the US?

I don't know about any applications for clinical trials with the FDA. They will probably complete the UK trials before applying anywhere else. Just my guess.

 

[DC2]

I believe Intellicig is going through clinical trials. Will they market their product as a harm reduction product?

If I remember correctly, they are applying to be a pharmaceutical (NRT) product.

 

[Bill Godshall]

If/when the FDA proposes and subsequently grants final approval to a "deeming" regulation that would apply Chapter IX of the FSPTCA to e-cigarettes (and other currently unregulated tobacco products), internet and mail order sales of all e-cigarette products could very likely be banned (or significantly restricted) in the US due to a regulation that the FDA must (but still hasn't) issued to regulate Non-Face-To-Face-Tobacco-Sales (which currently would only apply to cigarettes and smokeless tobacco, but which would also apply to any other tobacco products the agency "deems" to be regulated under Chapter IX).

Although the FDA has repeatedly stated its intent to propose the "deeming" regulation since 2010, the agency has not yet done so and continues to move the anticipate date of proposal into the future. This Spring the FDA stated its intent to propose the "deeming" regulation this summer, but I'd be very surprised if Obama's reelection team would allow DHHS Sebelious or the FDA to do so until after the election (as it wouldn't help Obama's reelection to piss off 14 cigar smokers and several million e-cigarette users right before the election).

If Obama wins the election, I expect the FDA to propose the "deeming" regulation early next year.

If Obama losses the election, its very possible that the FDA will not propose the "deeming" regulation for the next 4 years.

 

[mwa102464]

I highly doubt the FDA will EVER be able to stop sales of Mods over the internet, they all will just be considered custom flashlights, it just wont happen, hell the FDA cant even stop them from selling just about any Drug over the internet, besides there gonna have major revolts on there hands if they even try to stop us all from vaping like no one has ever seen before, it just isnt gonna happen, and even if it did there are ways around it to buy over the internet, I love my flashlights and unless there going to check every single pkg in customs Nic will still be able to be had from China worst case scenario. Just my 2c

 

[DC2]

I highly doubt the FDA will EVER be able to stop sales of Mods over the internet, they all will just be considered custom flashlights, it just wont happen, hell the FDA cant even stop them from selling just about any Drug over the internet, besides there gonna have major revolts on there hands if they even try to stop us all from vaping like no one has ever seen before, it just isnt gonna happen, and even if it did there are ways around it to buy over the internet, I love my flashlights and unless there going to check every single pkg in customs Nic will still be able to be had from China worst case scenario. Just my 2c

Yeah, they probably can't stop us.

And by "us" I mean those of us who are already here.
Already vaping.

But what about the 400,000 people who will die next year.
And the year after, and the year after...