Ban on Internet Sales?

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Vocalek

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Why not vote for whoever is running as the 3rd candidate? I'm probably voting for whoever is the 3rd candidate. Maybe one day we'll get a random dude as our president (can't be that much worse).

Sigh, here's to hoping a ban doesn't go through.

Nothing at all--provided either one of the major party candidates will be equally bad. But if one will be worse than the other, and neither one is ideal, then it is more practical to vote for the "lesser of the two evils". Otherwise, you risk splitting the vote between the third party candidate and the lesser of two evils resulting in the election of the greater of two evils.
 

evilferret

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Nothing at all--provided either one of the major party candidates will be equally bad. But if one will be worse than the other, and neither one is ideal, then it is more practical to vote for the "lesser of the two evils". Otherwise, you risk splitting the vote between the third party candidate and the lesser of two evils resulting in the election of the greater of two evils.

Call me a hippie but I want the wars to end. I don't believe either of the major party candidates have an interest in that.

Guess other people have to weigh their priorities but to me, I don't see a difference between the two major party candidates.

Semantically, does this mean children born in the last few years have only known wartime? Technically all those kids were born during the War on Terror.

But I'm getting off-topic!

Hopefully people will make a ruckus if our e-cigs get banned. Hopefully enough to stop our government.
 
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Vocalek

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Because they are both politicians, the candidates may appear to be similar; however I see a major difference between the two parties in terms of how they view the role of government and in their history of implementation of government.

One party believes that the government knows best. The government needs to micromanage every aspect of the citizens' lives. Toward this goal, the government needs to enact many more laws, as complex as possible, with reams and reams of regulations to back that up without regard to how much it will cost to enforce those regulations and how much it will cost businesses and individuals to comply with them. This party loves to raise taxes and to spend more money than we take in. Business growth has stagnated under this type of government because the costs of running a business grows exponentially as more and more regulations are imposed.

The other party believes that the government that governs least governs best. In the past, presidents elected from this party have actually rolled back some regulations, Congress has lowered taxes and refrained from imposing laws that would raise costs not only for running the government, but also for running businesses.

In terms of how the government will behave, which party do you think will do the most damage to the availability of (and truthful information about) smoke-free alternatives?

If you believe that both parties will continue to pass more and more laws, enact more and more regulations, and continue to raise the national debt by spending much more money than we take in, then by all means vote for a third party candidate if you like--but be very realistic about the chances of that 3rd party candidate winning.

As someone who came of age during the Viet Nam War era, I guess I would qualify as a genuine "hippie" -- in the past. At that time, I believed it was the job of government to take care of its citizens and to right social wrongs. But lately I have come to see that having the government take care of you comes at a tremendous price -- a price I am not willing to pay. My freedom.
 

BuGlen

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Wow! This discussion is getting quite partisan in a hurry, and that worries me.

I don't know that having Obama in the white house for 4 more years will guarantee a ban on internet sales of nicotine (which is what this thread was supposed to be about anyway), and I don't believe anyone without genuine clairvoyance really knows either. I do, however, hear daily the rhetoric of each of the parties on other issues I personally believe are more important at the moment. Issues such as women's reproductive rights and gay rights, cuts in public service jobs and school programs, and general concern for continued prosperity of the middle class. While I call it rhetoric (mainly due to all the campaign BS ads on TV right now), it's also backed up by legislation proposed or passed by each of the parties as they've held a majority at the state or federal level, and everyone has access to that voting history to check for themselves.

Yes, I care about the future of vaping as much as anyone else, but for me there is so much more to consider given the state of our country lately.

With that said, is there any way we can address this bad situation without attacking the people who might otherwise be making good policy on other issues?
 

Vocalek

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It is unfortunate that the parties have become so polarized.

It appears as if one of the parties is all for a complete nanny state -- except that it allows individual freedom in matters of reproduction and sexuality; and the other party is perfectly willing to allow you to run your own life in most matters such as what to eat and drink--but has a very rigid outlook on matters of reproduction and sexuality.

There is no perfect choice.

So BluGlen, what would you suggest? How do we convince the Senator Lautenbergs, the Ellen Hahns, and the JohnBanzhaffs of the world to come to their senses and allow smokers choices other than quit or die? So far, I haven't seen any indication they are willing to budge from their position (they see themselves as having the moral high ground.)
 

BuGlen

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It is unfortunate that the parties have become so polarized.

It appears as if one of the parties is all for a complete nanny state -- except that it allows individual freedom in matters of reproduction and sexuality; and the other party is perfectly willing to allow you to run your own life in most matters such as what to eat and drink--but has a very rigid outlook on matters of reproduction and sexuality.

There is no perfect choice.

So BluGlen, what would you suggest? How do we convince the Senator Lautenbergs, the Ellen Hahns, and the JohnBanzhaffs of the world to come to their senses and allow smokers choices other than quit or die? So far, I haven't seen any indication they are willing to budge from their position (they see themselves as having the moral high ground.)

My only suggestion is that we keep the discussion focused on the issue and away from the partisan banter, if at all possible. And yes, I'm guilty of having the same partisan passion on certain issues as anyone else, so mine is just the opinion of one person. It just seems to me that for the last decade or so, we can't seem to have an intelligent discussion about an important issue without the popular political PR terms or some other propaganda derailing the original meaning.

Admittedly, I don't know what the stance is on other issues for these people that you've named, and I have no love for anyone who takes an unyielding stand based on ignorance. I honestly believe that only by changing public opinion on vaping as a viable alternative to the "quit or die" campaign that any real long-term change be made. It wasn't that long ago that the public opinion on gay rights was quite different than it is today, and it's only recently that we're seeing any real challenge to legislation that opposes these rights.

So, to summarize my original point and hopefully put it in better context... If one wants to point out that a particular politician or other official that has a position based on ignorance and should be challenged in the next primary election or forced to resign office, I'm on board with that. If someone tries to lump vaping in with other popular issues by using terms such as "personal freedoms" or "nanny state" to help push the agenda of an established political party, I take issue. Do I believe we should we take this issue to the voting booth? Absolutely. But I also believe that it should be held in perspective, as I've stated, given all the other issues to consider when we cast our ballot on election day.
 

Stubby

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My only suggestion is that we keep the discussion focused on the issue and away from the partisan banter, if at all possible. And yes, I'm guilty of having the same partisan passion on certain issues as anyone else, so mine is just the opinion of one person. It just seems to me that for the last decade or so, we can't seem to have an intelligent discussion about an important issue without the popular political PR terms or some other propaganda derailing the original meaning.

Admittedly, I don't know what the stance is on other issues for these people that you've named, and I have no love for anyone who takes an unyielding stand based on ignorance. I honestly believe that only by changing public opinion on vaping as a viable alternative to the "quit or die" campaign that any real long-term change be made. It wasn't that long ago that the public opinion on gay rights was quite different than it is today, and it's only recently that we're seeing any real challenge to legislation that opposes these rights.

So, to summarize my original point and hopefully put it in better context... If one wants to point out that a particular politician or other official that has a position based on ignorance and should be challenged in the next primary election or forced to resign office, I'm on board with that. If someone tries to lump vaping in with other popular issues by using terms such as "personal freedoms" or "nanny state" to help push the agenda of an established political party, I take issue. Do I believe we should we take this issue to the voting booth? Absolutely. But I also believe that it should be held in perspective, as I've stated, given all the other issues to consider when we cast our ballot on election day.

Yes, whenever I see the words "personal freedom" or "nanny state" or any of the other meaningless buzz words I know the level of discussion has sunk to the bottom and beyond.

I could just as easily make an argument about the loss of the middle class and the redistribution of wealth from the bottom to the top that has been going on since the Reagan era, but that's not going to help. Freedom and personal responsibility is great.... until your job gets shipped to China or Mexico...... then you have the freedom to be a Walmart greeter or flip burgers....... with no insurance because of pre-existing condition, or that it may be a better idea to feed the kids instead of paying for insurance........ I could go on and on.....and it may make me feel a bit better for a very fleeting moment. But it doesn't help.

Educating the public on the concepts of tobacco harm reduction, and calling out the corruption that has taken over tobacco control is the best thing we can do to change things.
 
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Wolf308

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I sit here in Australia and with sadness look at your plight.

It seems the same here, we have only 2 Major Parties(they party pretty hard with our money) yet they are really both the same.

It makes me wonder if they all have the same Boss Woldwide.

RC

I don't think it is any different anywhere in the world. You give some a little power and they go nuts. Human nature at this point. What I hope is that someday we all turn around - in all the countries - and realize "the boss" isn't.
 

whynes

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With respect, this statement seems politically motivated and I seriously doubt it will make one bit of difference who is in the white house with regards to how the FDA ends up handling electronic cigarettes.

I wouldn't presume to speak for Bill, but I respectfully disagree there
was any such apparent motivation .

Reposting my comment from another thread:

The president appoints the leadership of the FDA.

From the top down, the current FDA leadership
are militant anti-nicotine prohibitionists who
make public comments contradicting research
that they have already been made aware of.

There's no guaruntee that a different president would
appoint leadership with a different bias, but it's certainly
obvious, to anyone who's watching, what the current
leadership will do if left in place.

Just saying :unsure:

To add a little more to that notion, after the President makes
the appointments to the FDA, they have to be confirmed by
the Senate.

So not only does it make every bit of difference who you
elect for President, it is also just as important who you elect to
represent you in the Senate.

If we don't care about instigating change, we can narrow the discussion
to just complaining to each other, to our family, and to our friends, about
stuff we don't like. Then we can leave politics aside.

If, however, we're going to discuss practical ways to have our views
reflected in public policy, expressing a political point of view is, I'm
afriad, unavoidable.

I strongly believe, however, that we owe it to ourselves and to our
own particular issues, to do it forthrightly and respectfully. To do
otherwise is to invite the same kind of polarization that has paralyzed
our government.

Again, not trying to tell you how to vote. Just saying . . . :unsure:
 
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whynes

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Of course the democratic side in politics is more anti-tobacco with regards to restrictions and taxation, that's plain and obvious for everyone to see. The point I was trying to make was; do you honestly think Romney is going to put someone in that is going to give us carte blanche and allow us to continue unregulated as we are now? Deregulation is part of the reason why we have a corrupt FDA in cahoots with pharmaceutical corps.

All indications point to big tobacco taking over the e-cig market and selling us pre-filled cartos or desposibles; how would Romney change any of that? Ron Paul appointees probably wouldn't even allow us to get away with what we're getting away with now. That growing hole in the state budgets from tobacco tax has to be filled from somewhere. I just think that some might want to consider the ramifications of voting one way based solely on this issue given the wide spectrum of effects that it could have in other matters, especially given some of the other issues we are facing in this country right now.

We could speculate on what a different administration might do, but
we don't have to speculate on what this administration's FDA has done,
and it doesn't take much speculation to see where they are headed, if allowed
to continue.

At this point I think the only speculation relevant to the point at hand is whether
we, as a country, are going to allow a continuation in that direction. A wait-and-
see approach is tantamount to admitting that they know best, and just going with
the flow.

That growing hole in the state budgets from tobacco tax has to be filled from somewhere.

Much of what I've seen in recent years suggests tobacco tax money, as well as
MSA money, is being used for the general welfare of all the citizens
in the states. Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think that all of the citizens should
help share the burdens of the cost of government, not just a selected underclass
who is easy to demonize and extort money from.
 
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Zonablazer

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Luisa

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I think we all need to open the line of communication with President Obama and show him how vaping has changed our lives....he smokes. I remember seeing this in the news a few years ago. He may not have quit since then....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/01/obama-doctor-president-st_n_480450.html


Gah as I wrote this I found another article that stated he was smoke free....:oops:

'He is tobacco-free': Obama's doctor confirms the president has quit smoking | Mail Online
How would you suggest we open this line of communication? Who among us is able to pick up the phone and call Barry?
 

yzer

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I would advise anyone to think twice about voting a Presidential ticket based on a single issue.

Keep in mind that the PACT act is recent Federal legislation that will have a profound effect on the future of tobacco product sales (including e-cigarettes) in the US. Pact Act passed the house and senate with bipartisan support.

Who voted and which way?

S. 1147 (111th): PACT Act (On Motion to Suspend the Rules and Pass) -- GovTrack.us

Another thing you may wish to remember is that one of the current Presidential candidates was a Bishop in the Mormon Church before he became a politician. Currently, the LDS religion forbids the use of:

Alcohol, including wine and beer.
Black tea, green tea,and other caffeinated teas.
Coffee and recipes that use it.
Iced coffee and iced caffeinated tea.
Illegal drugs, recreational drugs, and illicit prescription medications.
Tobacco.

You may recall that the LDS church succeeded in banning the sale of cigarettes and cigarette paper in Utah in 1921. The law proved to be little more than a joke and was repealed a year later.
 

Vocalek

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I recall people were afraid that if JFK was elected, he would impose his Catholic religious beliefs on the entire country. He was and he didn't.

As far as not knowing what a new president might do, that's true; however this is an excellent point:

wyness said:
We could speculate on what a different administration might do, but we don't have to speculate on what this administration's FDA has done, and it doesn't take much speculation to see where they are headed, if allowed to continue.

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me this goes far, far beyond a single issue. I don't like the way that a lot of things are going.
 

Berylanna

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I'm considering it. It also depends whether or not they show up on the ballot. Sometimes they don't make it on the ballot here in NC.
IMO the only way to get a truly qualified candidate would be to draft her or him. I think so far that's Washington and Ford, everybody else asked for the job.
 
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