Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[tceight]

Thought about them (a little) but they are not exactly for the average jo!

Was reading something earlier that looked potentially very intriguing but haven't had time to delve into it (and quite possibly debunk it) : [nicotine / smoking use causes] "the upregulation of three main internal anitoxidant & detox enzymes -- glutathione, catalase and SOD", plus anti-inflammatory action, giving rise to a ~20% life extention (if can avoid the cancer of other complication. For what it's worth, link : Nicotine Experiment - ImmInst.org Forums

Would certainly be great if it were possible to achieve these things without the dangers.

I've read of the advantages or selegiline in this regard, but not nicotine. The information I have come across regarding benefits are to it's neuroprotective actions and cognitive benefits.
I have quit numerous times, for two years at one point, and the entire time I felt like a ...... Even after two years, the best way I can describe it, I was 'close minded'. Unable to think laterally, lack of creativity, lack of empathy and/or able to see other points of view. Those two years cost me in many ways.
As for benefits, whether they actually exist or not, one thing is very clear to me.
The sustained high levels of cortisol from the anxiety and stress of not smoking, and/or smoking but being vilified by society for it, is extremely detrimental to ones health, both physical and mental (which amount to the same thing when you look at hippocampal neuron death).
http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/reprint/19/6/2356.pdf
While necessary and beneficial in short small doses, nothing is more caustic than cortisol and it's associated metabolites over the long term.
One study I read about cigarette vs pipe smoking actually made the link to 'relaxation', and compared the meditative ritual of pipe smoking vs the frenetic 'quick smoke' of cigarette smokers.
All off topic, but interesting. When I think benefits, I ask myself would I start my kids on smoking? obviously not, but then ask myself 'why not'? how much is fact and how much is propaganda.

 

[tceight]

Now there's an idea! Depends quite what it will filter out but well worth a try with a subsequent vape test. Might involve a substantial volume loss though.

ps: i put some quick notes on possible smoking benefits above as an edit.
Will be out jogging for a couple hours from now.

all I can find on Brita specifics, they are rated for
NSF/ANSI Standard 42: Drinking Water Treatment Units - Aesthetic Effects
Overview: This standard covers point-of-use (POU) and point-of-entry (POE) systems designed to reduce specific aesthetic or non-health-related contaminants (chlorine, taste and odor, and particulates) that may be present in public or private drinking water.
NSF/ANSI Standard 53: Drinking Water Treatment Units - Health Effects
Overview: Standard 53 addresses point-of-use (POU) and point-of-entry (POE) systems designed to reduce specific health-related contaminants, such as Cryptosporidium, Giardia, lead, volatile organic chemicals (VOCs), MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl ether), that may be present in public or private drinking water.

 

[kinabaloo]

I've read of the advantages or selegiline in this regard, but not nicotine. The information I have come across regarding benefits are to it's neuroprotective actions and cognitive benefits.
I have quit numerous times, for two years at one point, and the entire time I felt like a ...... Even after two years, the best way I can describe it, I was 'close minded'. Unable to think laterally, lack of creativity, lack of empathy and/or able to see other points of view. Those two years cost me in many ways.
As for benefits, whether they actually exist or not, one thing is very clear to me.
The sustained high levels of cortisol from the anxiety and stress of not smoking, and/or smoking but being vilified by society for it, is extremely detrimental to ones health, both physical and mental (which amount to the same thing when you look at hippocampal neuron death).
http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/reprint/19/6/2356.pdf
While necessary and beneficial in short small doses, nothing is more caustic than cortisol and it's associated metabolites over the long term.
One study I read about cigarette vs pipe smoking actually made the link to 'relaxation', and compared the meditative ritual of pipe smoking vs the frenetic 'quick smoke' of cigarette smokers.
All off topic, but interesting. When I think benefits, I ask myself would I start my kids on smoking? obviously not, but then ask myself 'why not'? how much is fact and how much is propaganda.

Completely agree on stress - it's the biggest killer (eclipsed only by prescription drugs and perhaps sugar / junk food). Cortisol can be thought of as the death hormone.

It just might be that the reason that BP / government is against smking is because it is partially healthful (protects against things like dementia and arthritis which are big money spinners).

BTW, if you haven't heard of it, lots of good info on nutrition, nootropics etc at www.lef.org

 

[kinabaloo]

all I can find on Brita specifics, they are rated for
NSF/ANSI Standard 42: Drinking Water Treatment Units - Aesthetic Effects
Overview: This standard covers point-of-use (POU) and point-of-entry (POE) systems designed to reduce specific aesthetic or non-health-related contaminants (chlorine, taste and odor, and particulates) that may be present in public or private drinking water.
NSF/ANSI Standard 53: Drinking Water Treatment Units - Health Effects
Overview: Standard 53 addresses point-of-use (POU) and point-of-entry (POE) systems designed to reduce specific health-related contaminants, such as Cryptosporidium, Giardia, lead, volatile organic chemicals (VOCs), MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl ether), that may be present in public or private drinking water.

I have this 5L plastic container of water in my car that I gulp from after jogging. Noticed today as i finished earlier than usual and it was still a bit light that the water was fluorescent green - presumably algae - yuk! I guess I got off lightly as i had drunk 2.5 litres of that over the last 4 or 5 days. Didn't taste off. That was unfiltered tap water. I do have a Britta system but hadn't used it to fill that up as it was meant more as spare water for the car itself.

 

[PapaJoe8]

The missing link in E liquid would be a great discovery!

Algae, a very overlooked food source!

Kina, a bit of salad w/ your water... not such a bad thing. :~)
Joe

Joe

 

[kinabaloo]

The missing link in E liquid would be a great discovery!

Algae, a very overlooked food source!

Kina, a bit of salad w/ your water... not such a bad thing. :~)
Joe

Joe

Well didn' seem to do any harm, but AFAIK algae is a bit like mushrooms in that not all are benign !

 

[tceight]

Completely agree on stress - it's the biggest killer (eclipsed only by prescription drugs and perhaps sugar / junk food). Cortisol can be thought of as the death hormone.

It just might be that the reason that BP / government is against smking is because it is partially healthful (protects against things like dementia and arthritis which are big money spinners).

BTW, if you haven't heard of it, lots of good info on nutrition, nootropics etc at www.lef.org

refined carbohydrates are as affective biologically as many 'drugs'. But bread feeds armies, and national food guides are for the health of the nation, not the individual. One would hope they were the same thing, but aren't.
I doubt that there is any collusion or grand plan between BP and Gov, mainly because I can't believe they could co-ordinate anything over the long term. Nonetheless, for all those that cry 'conspiracy', look at what capitalism is by design. It has no other motive or goal than monetary profit and capital growth.

 

[tceight]

Well didn' seem to do any harm, but AFAIK algae is a bit like mushrooms in that not all are benign !

yeah, cyanobacteria can produce some liver toxins, but a few million years of fine tuning have prepared you for that. no worries.

 

[tceight]

The missing link in E liquid would be a great discovery!

Algae, a very overlooked food source!

Kina, a bit of salad w/ your water... not such a bad thing. :~)
Joe

Joe

food, and 'feedstock' for many other things as well.
The missing link, I think is going to be a large section of chain.
Even the WTA route might be insufficient, as it is quite possible one of the links is a partial/combustion product.

 

[kinabaloo]

refined carbohydrates are as affective biologically as many 'drugs'. But bread feeds armies, and national food guides are for the health of the nation, not the individual. One would hope they were the same thing, but aren't.
I doubt that there is any collusion or grand plan between BP and Gov, mainly because I can't believe they could co-ordinate anything over the long term. Nonetheless, for all those that cry 'conspiracy', look at what capitalism is by design. It has no other motive or goal than monetary profit and capital growth.

Collusion? I meant that they are basically the same thing - BP pretty much controls health policy.

Indeed, that's the problem - profit led medicine will favor long term drug use (symptom suppression) over prevention or cure. And would understandably be prone to invent conditions and hush side-effects.

 

[kinabaloo]

Even the WTA route might be insufficient, as it is quite possible one of the links is a partial/combustion product.

I feel, fear even, that this might indeed be the case. But once we have detrmined the what, we can see if there is a way to utilise the knowledge in a reasnably safe way (if possible; at least can leave ut the others).

CO has been discussed in the past but i somehow don't think that's it.

Two unusual suggestions come to mind - O2, deepbreathing / hyperventilation (marginal); and oxidised nicotine (there are i think 2 or 3 main oxidation products - has been discusssed before if these might retian any biopsych activity); maybe one of these is especially potent in some way, perhaps different from nic in effects on brain chemistry.

I am most willing to look at all the possiblities here for possible co-factors but at present my money is still on MAOIs as accounting for the bulk of the 'missing' effect.

~~~

BP experimented with many things to increase effects / 'addiction'. It certainly tried to hide MAOIs created via acetaldehyde from combusted sugars/starches.

 

[tceight]

I feel, fear even, that this might indeed be the case. But once we have detrmined the what, we can see if there is a way to utilise the knowledge in a reasnably safe way (if possible; at least can leave ut the others).

CO has been discussed in the past but i somehow don't think that's it.

Two unusual suggestions come to mind - O2, deepbreathing / hyperventilation (marginal); and oxidised nicotine (there are i think 2 or 3 main oxidation products - has been discusssed before if these might retian any biopsych activity); maybe one of these is especially potent in some way, perhaps different from nic in effects on brain chemistry.

I am most willing to look at all the possiblities here for possible co-factors but at present my money is still on MAOIs as accounting for the bulk of the 'missing' effect.

~~~

BP experimented with many things to increase effects / 'addiction'. It certainly tried to hide MAOIs created via acetaldehyde from combusted sugars/starches.

It is a rather large elephant, but fortunately we don't have to eat the whole thing, but just keep at it until we find satiation. lol
Even if we end up having to add charred tobacco to the mix, that does not concern me any more than the TSNA's or any other component. I mean, I am consuming them now anyway, and I am not convinced the risk is as high (or even existent) as has been officially stated.

so from a 'practical' standpoint, doable within the means of kitchen's everywhere, what have we to work with, and what initial path?

Solvents to dissolve required alkaloids, polar is easy. EA may be a safe non polar.
Vaporization/condensation of tobacco products. doable.
others??

methods to clean up the resulting brew? What are we cleaning up?

Sugars,starches,
Fats, waxes, oils?
Tannins?

what do we have to clean things up?
distillation,
Activated Carbon
IX resins from water purification.
fining products, gelatin etc.
some kind of simplified column cromatograph?
??
??
the carbohydrates I think would be a large component, any ideas on how to clean them up?

~~~~ for CO, I've tried smoking herbals, and mullein leaf with zero satisfaction before, so hypoxia is not what I crave. lol

 

[kinabaloo]

the carbohydrates I think would be a large component, any ideas on how to clean them up?

~~~~ for CO, I've tried smoking herbals, and mullein leaf with zero satisfaction before, so hypoxia is not what I crave. lol

Good to hear it

Regarding carbs - how about fermentation - a bit slow though and might need enzymes to break up cellulose first. So probably down to specific finings or 'distillation' (simple boil over and recondense).

~~~

Maybe add NaCO3 to the list above. Hmm, a better basifier would be ammonium hydroxide (to 25% of tobacco weight).

90% extraction of nic in water is possible.

HOw about using an expresso machine (steam) to do the extraction ?

 

[HeatherC]

I'm gonna apologize for interrupting this technical talk with probably what seems like a very simple question. I had never known that MAOI's existed in tobacco. I have been on an SSRI and now an SSNRI for about 13 years and smoked through them all. (selective seretonin reuptake inhibitor and selective seretonin and norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor as if you didn't already know ) But I have always understood that the two types of drugs were incompatible...and kinda wonder if that may not be the reason for my headaches and dizziness when I was smoking....and maybe if the missing elements aren't the reason that I feel some of the dizziness even now (like withdrawal?)....altho it is far less than when I was smoking almost 3 packs a day.
I would be grateful if any of you guys could help me with this.

 

[kinabaloo]

HeatherC - just so you know I did see your post, I can't really comment I'm afraid beyond agreeing that that SSRIs and MAOIs are incompatible ('serotonin syndrome') and can even be fatal.

 

[HeatherC]

thanks for that...guess it's a good thing i'm using the PV now rather than the cigs

 

[HeatherC]

Oh and I can't believe I spelled serotonin wrong since I'm studying medical transcription LOL

 

[HeatherC]

I also find myself wondering if MAOI's wouldn't lessen or negate the effect of SSRIs if anyone knows.

 

[tescela]

Collusion? I meant that they are basically the same thing - BP pretty much controls health policy.

Indeed, that's the problem - profit led medicine will favor long term drug use (symptom suppression) over prevention or cure. And would understandably be prone to invent conditions and hush side-effects.

Biased lurker observation: this must be one of the most intelligent threads on ECF.

kinabaloo (and maybe tceight, too): have you ever found people around you IRL to be amazed that you smoked and yet were simultaneously otherwise so conscientious about your health?

 

[tceight]

Good to hear it

Regarding carbs - how about fermentation - a bit slow though and might need enzymes to break up cellulose first. So probably down to specific finings or 'distillation' (simple boil over and recondense).

~~~

Maybe add NaCO3 to the list above. Hmm, a better basifier would be ammonium hydroxide (to 25% of tobacco weight).

90% extraction of nic in water is possible.

HOw about using an expresso machine (steam) to do the extraction ?

ammonium hydroxide might be hard to 'kitchen source' a USP grade easily.
but there is 'bakers ammonia' ammonium carbonate, It's food grade with a max pH of 9. That should be high enough, If my rememberer is working, I think any pH over 8.5 will free most of the nicotine from salts.

fermentation? now that is off the wall. I like the way you think. That famous Lorillard paper on nicotine extraction mentioned problems with micro-organisms in their larger scale testing, so we would need to determine if alkaloids are a food source to yeasts.. (nitrogen)

h2o is a great solvent, for nicotine, better than alcohol and almost as good as EA. It's just too damn good at all the rest of the stuff too!
what would be perfect, is an alkaloid specific solvent that is safe and easy to get...... but then you watch, we would still be missing something. lol