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tceight

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Are you sure you're not a chemist ?? :?:

For example, between 195C and 230C, nicotine tartrate decomposes to nicotine, CO2 and acetaldehyde. I know from else where that some of the acetaldehyde racts with sugars to create some MAOIs.

This is a very interesting fact (and explains why cigs with low freebase nic still yield nic just fine). This fact could be useful to us too. Slow heat the tobacco and collect the condensed vapors.
I think the acetaldehyde is formed from the carbohydrates
slow heat, in an inert atmosphere might work.
not even inert, just no O2. Steam should suffice, Does this sound like we are going in circles? lol I think this was around posts 160-170.
~~ yep, positive. I almost failed chem in HS. :(
 
I think the acetaldehyde is formed from the carbohydrates
slow heat, in an inert atmosphere might work.
not even inert, just no O2. Steam should suffice, Does this sound like we are going in circles? lol I think this was around posts 160-170.
~~ yep, positive. I almost failed chem in HS. :(

could use a candle to burn off most of the oxygen. but if the volume of the transfer tube and cold collector is small, why worry too much. I am liking the heat up of the tobacco approach.

If go with steam, an expresso machine would do the job fast and simply (and easily cleaned after). Could do a second steam blast to compare color of result to see if first blast likely got most of the fast dissolvables.
 

tceight

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could use a candle to burn off most of the oxygen. but if the volume of the transfer tube and cold collector is small, why worry too much. I am liking the heat up of the tobacco approach.

If go with steam, an expresso machine would do the job fast and simply (and easily cleaned after). Could do a second steam blast to compare color of result to see if first blast likely got most of the fast dissolvables.

expresso machines make 'steam' at about 90C

steam at 240C requires 3400kpa(a) Ouch.... a lot of energy there. As deadly as concentrated nicotine.

flames burn out at an O2 concentration of 16%

next?;)

~~~ 2803kJ/kg.... and an expansion of 1600:1 at atmospheric pressure!!
 
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expresso machines make 'steam' at about 90C

steam at 240C requires 3400kpa(a) Ouch.... a lot of energy there. As deadly as concentrated nicotine.

flames burn out at an O2 concentration of 16%

next?;)

the expresso was just an idea to speed up a simple water extraction.

the candle wouldnt help much right. but from all i've read from practical experiments rather than theoretical papers suggests that nicotine does not easily oxidise, so i dont think an oxygen-free atmosphere is essential.

heat up the tobacco indirectly to about 200C or a bit higher and condense the vapors or trap with water (could be as simple as a damp cotton wool ball at the top of a flask. Ok, that's a bit too crude! This approach seems as good a way as any, and who knows, maybe better. No solvents or steam required. Same as smoking except no smoke because wouldnt be using fire as heat source; the efficiency could be raised from 10% to perhaps 90% also.

A variation would be to do the same but on a water extraction rather than the whole tobacco matrix. Not a distillation as such, would continue gently heated the dry residue after the water has all boiled over.

There's a gadget that works like this that some use as an alternative to the usual e-cig. So I'm suggesting to use same approach but instead of breathing the vapors, collect them to make an e-liquid that can be used in normal (much smaller and easier to use) e-cigs.

One example is the Iolite. You put in a pinch of tobacco or herbs and it heats that (using butane) to about 200C (probably temp controlled).
 
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tceight

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the expresso was just an idea to speed up a simple water extraction.

the candle wouldnt help much right. but from all i've read from practical experiments rather than theoretical papers suggests that nicotine does not easily oxidise, so i dont think an oxygen-free atmosphere is essential.

heat up the tobacco indirectly to about 200C or a bit higher and condense the vapors or trap with water (could be as simple as a damp cotton wool ball at the top of a flask. Ok, that's a bit too crude, but seems as good a way as any, and who knows, maybe better. No solvents or steam required.

A variation would be to do the same but on a water extraction rather than the whole tobacco matrix.
even those old extraction methods i posted before talked about a Hydrogen atmosphere, so I just assumed it is an issue.
the steam numbers i was talking about were tongue in cheek.
I doubt the requirement would be to have the entire vessel at that P/T.
most steam distillation is done to separate immiscible oils, that would break down at high temp. the idea is you don't need to get that high if your temp is above the combined vapor pressures of the two fluids.
I remember seeing some steam distillation lab setup's in those online tobacco documents with glassware. (not 3400kpa!) And they mention steam distillation of the extract by bubbling the steam through the basic solution (as in Base)
 

tceight

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There's a gadget that works like this that some use as an alternative to the usual e-cig. So I'm suggesting to use same approach but instead of breathing the vapors, collect them to make an e-liquid that can be used in normal (much smaller and easier to use) e-cigs.

I remember reading a thread on here about using a 'volcano' and condensing the vapors directly into PG
 

tescela

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Was just reading this article (light on scientific details in itself) that is both interesting and enlightening wrt recent posts.

It regards the huge increase in consumption of high fructose corn syrup and that cancer cells are able to proliferate more easily with fructose (in particular) available (while all tumor cells thrive on sugars. Interesting.

What do you imagine the researchers say by way of a conclusion? To educate against high fructose corn syrup use perhaps?

The article concludes: "Now the team hopes to develop a drug that might stop tumour cells from making use of fructose."

Cancer cells slurp up fructose, U.S. study finds - Healthzone.ca

kinabaloo and tceight: you have both courteously suggested that you don't want to take this thread off-track. However, if I correctly perceive the purpose of this thread to be mapping a path to achieving the desired effects (produced by analogs) while reducing harm, then one might conclude that the "OT" comments are really just extensions of the same premise into the realm of food and pharmaceuticals.

As such, those comments are highly relevant for those of us that have a strong interest in a more comprehensive framework of practical harm reduction.

Bottom line: if you decide to start a separate thread to discuss these non-WTA topics further, then please let us know! :)
 
kinabaloo and tceight: you have both courteously suggested that you don't want to take this thread off-track. However, if I correctly perceive the purpose of this thread to be mapping a path to achieving the desired effects (produced by analogs) while reducing harm, then one might conclude that the "OT" comments are really just extensions of the same premise into the realm of food and pharmaceuticals.

As such, those comments are highly relevant for those of us that have a strong interest in a more comprehensive framework of practical harm reduction.

Bottom line: if you decide to start a separate thread to discuss these non-WTA topics further, then please let us know! :)

I imagine that you're already familiar with George Orwell and '1984'. I haven't yet read it myself but see it quoted gain and again in the arenas I either contribute to or hang out at. He was able to see the future because that future was already occuring and was clearly going to get worse. He had his eyes open. Today, war is peace; it's almost official.

The nightmare isn't 'over there', it's here.

John Swinton, former Chief of Staff at The New York Times, was asked to give a toast before the prestigious New York Press Club in 1953. Swinton was admiringly called "the dean of his profession" by other newsmen. He made this candid confession:

There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. The business of the journalist is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell the country for his daily bread. You know it and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press. We are the tools and vassals of the rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes.

1953 - just imagine how even worse things are now.

A few years later Eisenhower in his farewell adress warned of the military industrial complex, then quite new (http://www.h-net.org/~hst306/documents/indust.html). Again, just imagine the true reality today.

There are other quotes along the lines of 'if the people knew what is done in their name ...' that I can't find off the top of my head, but you get the picture.

We live in a world few really comprehend, so dark is the reality.
 
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tceight

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Eureka... well not quite, but I had a few ideas while sleeping about simplifying. This was getting too complex. BTW, can still use steam at atmospheric pressure. just superheat it. doh! Hey, it was 1a.m.!

tescela - I'll be the first to agree there is no 'off topic', when exploring new ground.

re: freedom of press, that is the great hope of the internet. it isn't easy with such a high signal to noise ratio though.
here is video interview, his last before passing.
It's 52min long, but a great intro into another view of our world.
YouTube - Norman Dodd On Tax Exempt Foundations
 

nicnac

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Reporting on the use of Passionflower.
It did give me something missing but I am quite sure there was something else missing.
Been smoking analogs for 37 years. started vaping two months ago (61 days). During this time I had one analog in day 11 and decided I could do without it. Vaping gave me all the mental needs as a substitute but physically as days went by, I could feel the something missing. the biggest thing missing was the bowel movement. Today while i was driving to work, I decided to lite up a cig. Smoked it half way & soon it felt like everything was falling into place. All of the sudden, I needed to take a dump so bad. Got to the office and.........Felt so good.
 

nesf

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HeatherC - just so you know I did see your post, I can't really comment I'm afraid beyond agreeing that that SSRIs and MAOIs are incompatible ('serotonin syndrome') and can even be fatal.

Some MAOIs are incompatible with SSRIs (well, no not incompatible, they just dramatically increase the effect per mg of an SSRI), some aren't though. Those found in cigarettes don't have this effect, which is fortunate given the absurdly high % of mental health sufferers who smoke.

Specifically, the MAOIs in tobacco (I'm not sure about passionflower) are reversible and the MAOIs normally used in psychiatric medications are irreversible, this makes for a very big difference in terms of interactions with other substances, i.e. no cheese syndrome for smokers but it's a life threatening risk for those on irreversible MAOIs.
 
Some MAOIs are incompatible with SSRIs (well, no not incompatible, they just dramatically increase the effect per mg of an SSRI), some aren't though. Those found in cigarettes don't have this effect, which is fortunate given the absurdly high % of mental health sufferers who smoke.

Specifically, the MAOIs in tobacco (I'm not sure about passionflower) are reversible and the MAOIs normally used in psychiatric medications are irreversible, this makes for a very big difference in terms of interactions with other substances, i.e. no cheese syndrome for smokers but it's a life threatening risk for those on irreversible MAOIs.

Good point (I trust it is correct).

I was referring to prescription MAOIs but that wasn't so clear.
 

HeatherC

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Some MAOIs are incompatible with SSRIs (well, no not incompatible, they just dramatically increase the effect per mg of an SSRI), some aren't though. Those found in cigarettes don't have this effect, which is fortunate given the absurdly high % of mental health sufferers who smoke.

Specifically, the MAOIs in tobacco (I'm not sure about passionflower) are reversible and the MAOIs normally used in psychiatric medications are irreversible, this makes for a very big difference in terms of interactions with other substances, i.e. no cheese syndrome for smokers but it's a life threatening risk for those on irreversible MAOIs.

At least I can be relieved that I wasn't risking a fatal condition by continuing to smoke (not that I'm gonna go back to analogs) Phew bullet dodged :laugh:
 

tceight

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Reporting on the use of Passionflower.
It did give me something missing but I am quite sure there was something else missing.
Been smoking analogs for 37 years. started vaping two months ago (61 days). During this time I had one analog in day 11 and decided I could do without it. Vaping gave me all the mental needs as a substitute but physically as days went by, I could feel the something missing. the biggest thing missing was the bowel movement. Today while i was driving to work, I decided to lite up a cig. Smoked it half way & soon it felt like everything was falling into place. All of the sudden, I needed to take a dump so bad. Got to the office and.........Felt so good.
Hey nicnac, I can relate to that same issue.
All the talk of nicotines effect on neurons, we instantly think about the brain, and forget that we have neurons throughout our entire body including a high density in our guts.
 

tceight

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Some MAOIs are incompatible with SSRIs (well, no not incompatible, they just dramatically increase the effect per mg of an SSRI), some aren't though. Those found in cigarettes don't have this effect, which is fortunate given the absurdly high % of mental health sufferers who smoke.

Specifically, the MAOIs in tobacco (I'm not sure about passionflower) are reversible and the MAOIs normally used in psychiatric medications are irreversible, this makes for a very big difference in terms of interactions with other substances, i.e. no cheese syndrome for smokers but it's a life threatening risk for those on irreversible MAOIs.

they are RIMA's, (MAOI-A) but then some prescription MAOI's are RIMA's too.
Just being reversable doesn't automatically make it safe, it just means that the levels don't build up over time. The inhibiting effect while it is active is the same.
 
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