Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[tceight]

tceight - anything to report? positive or negative.

yes, and yes.
Conflicting priorities right now, and never enough time.

Thought you might be interested in this, as a recent example of how BP isn't interested in anything without profit potential,
Interesting story of accidental discovery, lack of interest (not patentable, a commonly used compound), and how a town got together and raised 365 000 to start clinical trials at the local university. If you can't beat em... then go around them.
CBC News - Health - Potential brain-cancer drug shows promise
DCA Research Information

 

[kinabaloo]

yes, and yes.
Conflicting priorities right now, and never enough time.

Thought you might be interested in this, as a recent example of how BP isn't interested in anything without profit potential,
Interesting story of accidental discovery, lack of interest (not patentable, a commonly used compound), and how a town got together and raised 365 000 to start clinical trials at the local university. If you can't beat em... then go around them.
CBC News - Health - Potential brain-cancer drug shows promise
DCA Research Information

Excellent. Don't give money to the well-known cancer charities, fund specific reasearch into the things that BP won't touch. Of which there are many, some going back decades.

Even in the MSM there are often reports about dietary factors have impacts on cancer or other major illnesses with amazing factors like 50% yet at the end there is always some mainstream body piping in with 'we don't recommend anyone change anything without further research blah blah'.

Don't think that BP/government agencies have your health as their main concern; you need to use your head ...

 

[tceight]

gone through that paper you found on evaporation of the nic salts a few times. great info!
a couple point's to elaborate on later.... the paper is about measuring the effective release of nicotine 'real time' with a gas chromatograph online monitoring. what happens to the constituents once things cool down?

also found this. (I like the old texts!)
I won't state the obvious.



Microchemical Identification of Harmine and Harmaline. J. F. H.
Amelink. (Pharm. Weekbl., 1931, 68, 221-229.)-The properties and reactions
of Merck’s preparations, (‘ Harmine ” and Harmaline,” are described. “ Harmine ”
is identical with banisterine hydrochloride, Cl,H1,0N,HCl.2H,0. The alkaloid
melts at 263” C. without decomposing. Harmine (the hydrochloric acid salt) is a
white crystalline powder; the solubility in water at 20” C. is 1 :40 and the solution
is slightly fluorescent. With sulphuric acid the solution is yellow with a green
fluorescence. With Frohde’s reagent it gives a yellow-brown colour, turning
green on heating; with Erdmann’s reagent a green colour, turning blue-green on
warming; with Marquis’ reagent a red-brown colour, turning violet on warming;
and with Wasicky’s reagent a yellow-brown colour which disappears on heating,
and, on standing, becomes red-brown again, then red, and, finally, purple. When
0.05 mgrm. of harmine per grm. weight of the animal to be tested is injected intravenously,
the first result is violent trembling, followed by cramp and death.
Harmaline gives the same result when 0.005 mgrm. per grm. body weight is administered.
The alkaloids can thus be identified physiologically. Chemical
identification is carried out, using the 8 reagents described in the previous paper
(abstract above). Harmaline, which is dihydro-harmine, melts (without decomposition)
at 238” C.

 

[kinabaloo]

gone through that paper you found on evaporation of the nic salts a few times. great info!
a couple point's to elaborate on later.... the paper is about measuring the effective release of nicotine 'real time' with a gas chromatograph online monitoring. what happens to the constituents once things cool down?

also found this. (I like the old texts!)
I won't state the obvious.



Microchemical Identification of Harmine and Harmaline. J. F. H.
Amelink. (Pharm. Weekbl., 1931, 68, 221-229.)-The properties and reactions
of Merck’s preparations, (‘ Harmine ” and Harmaline,” are described. “ Harmine ”
is identical with banisterine hydrochloride, Cl,H1,0N,HCl.2H,0. The alkaloid
melts at 263” C. without decomposing. Harmine (the hydrochloric acid salt) is a
white crystalline powder; the solubility in water at 20” C. is 1 :40 and the solution
is slightly fluorescent. With sulphuric acid the solution is yellow with a green
fluorescence. With Frohde’s reagent it gives a yellow-brown colour, turning
green on heating; with Erdmann’s reagent a green colour, turning blue-green on
warming; with Marquis’ reagent a red-brown colour, turning violet on warming;
and with Wasicky’s reagent a yellow-brown colour which disappears on heating,
and, on standing, becomes red-brown again, then red, and, finally, purple. When
0.05 mgrm. of harmine per grm. weight of the animal to be tested is injected intravenously,
the first result is violent trembling, followed by cramp and death.
Harmaline gives the same result when 0.005 mgrm. per grm. body weight is administered.
The alkaloids can thus be identified physiologically. Chemical
identification is carried out, using the 8 reagents described in the previous paper
(abstract above). Harmaline, which is dihydro-harmine, melts (without decomposition)
at 238” C.

Just back from running up and down hills and my mind is on getting some food in a moment, so you might need to state the obvious - unless it's don't eat some carbolines for dinner

ps: thanks for the 1984 link

 

[tceight]

Just back from running up and down hills and my mind is on getting some food in a moment, so you might need to state the obvious - unless it's don't eat some carbolines for dinner

ps: thanks for the 1984 link

just the melting temp.
I had started cobbling some things together, quartz tube, heater, etc. to try the direct vaporizing of nicotine from the tobacco, but these numbers are way higher than for the nicotine.
on a broader note, this thread IS about beta-carbolines... and they do seem to be an enticing theory. but maybe focusing on the harmala's isn't the right idea.
I mean, we have nicotine in E-Juice,
we can get harmala's in extract (PF)
and we have people that have already tried them together.

I suppose the thought is 'those plus/or others' and by going this WTA route we are aiming at shotgunning the 'others'.

If whatever WTA approach we use is unsuccessful for satiation, then we will continue to wonder if it just missed picking up the 'something' and try a different method, shooting in the dark.

I intend to continue this approach, and hope I get lucky,
but in parallel, a more definitive and logical method would be to start looking at the other compounds we suspect and seeing if we can source them one by one.
for instance, anabasine is another nicotinic acetycholine receptor specific alkaloid. Is it soluable in??? boiling point? etc.
if we find something specific or even intriguing, then the extraction method could be more specific to that molecule.
i.e. Harmine is insoluble in water, so for a water extraction it must be in salt form.

anyway, I am sure this has all been discussed before, while I have hope for B-Carbs in general, the harmalas appear by empirical evidence of use by members (and me) to be a dead end.
DVap's WTA, were the Guinea pigs 100% satisfied, or was there still something missing?
~~ or are there any resident users of vaporizers like the iolite or Ubie that could describe their experiences with those devices as they relate to tobacco satiation.

 

[kinabaloo]

tceight - I don't know the details, but we know that smoking works,; so somehow the 'missings' (presumably carbolines) do get from the tobacco to the body. In cigs maybe carried on ash particles. In a WTA type liquid perhaps by being spitted out as a mist of droplets in the atomiser.

DVaps WTA involved alkali-acid wash cycles rather than a simple water soak. And ultimately it seems the missings do get from the liquid to the lungs.

I have long thought we should approach the puzzle from both the extraction from tobacco and nic + a, b or c.

~~~

As with nicotine, most of the carboline content is likely in salt form and likely soluble in water (though perhaps less readily than nic salts). On the other hand, some carboline content in smoking is produced duing the heating/combustion processes from carbs via acetaldehyde.

~~~

The best herbal extract match to the most prevalent MAOIs in smoking would be Syrian Rue.

 

[tceight]

yes, smoking works...so 'it' is in there.
what is 'it', so we can extract 'it'.
Whatever method we use to extract, may miss 'it' unless we know its physical parameters. (accepting of course that 'it' is actually a 'they')

That was my point about DVAP's WTA..
it was a complete 'Alkaloid' extraction using age old A/B separation techniques and we can assume all the alkaloids or at least a major proportion of all the alkaloids was in the WTA.
my question was/is.... "was it enough??" or, was something still missing.

 

[kinabaloo]

yes, smoking works...so 'it' is in there.
what is 'it', so we can extract 'it'.
Whatever method we use to extract, may miss 'it' unless we know its physical parameters. (accepting of course that 'it' is actually a 'they')

That was my point about DVAP's WTA..
it was a complete 'Alkaloid' extraction using age old A/B separation techniques and we can assume all the alkaloids or at least a major proportion of all the alkaloids was in the WTA.
my question was/is.... "was it enough??" or, was something still missing.

I think the answer was a definitate yes; quite amazing in fact apparently, for most who tried it anyway. Only problem is that the technique is too complex for the average kitchen and non-chemist; ie could be dangerous. Might be worth duplicating that approach just the once to confirm.

 

[tceight]

I think the answer was a definitate yes; quite amazing in fact apparently, for most who tried it anyway. Only problem is that the technique is too complex for the average kitchen and non-chemist; ie could be dangerous. Might be worth duplicating that approach just the once to confirm.

that's encouraging to know. Might be worth it, but not to be taken likely. Fortunately I have access to hazmat disposable tyvek coveralls, VOC respirator cartridges, and no neighbours around because i would be doing it outside.
found the Boiling Point for Harmine = 421.4 °C. so it must be carried by 'atomized droplets' in the E-Cig.

It kind of put the brakes on the 'Uber simple' method I was thinking about, which was to go the route of a non "E" ecig. Just like a NICOTROL inhaler, no heat, so no concerns about all the carbohydrates etc.
But with the WTA instead of just nicotine. there would be no vapor either, but that can be a good thing 'stealth' wise, unless one truly needs that psychological aspect.

The specs on the NICOTROL, are here
http://media.pfizer.com/files/products/uspi_nicotrol_inhaler.pdf
-a porous plug containing 10 mg S(-)nicotine delivering 4 mg
-An intensive inhalation regimen (80 deep inhalations over 20 minutes) releases on theaverage 4 mg of the nicotine content of each cartridge of which about 2 mg is systemically absorbed.

so unfortunately if you have to suck on the damn thing that hard to get nic which is liquid at room temp, then how much would you get from the harmaline that is sublimating from a solid!

it also makes the quartz tube vaporizer unlikely to be efficient at getting harmine, until you get the temperature up around 350C, right around the temperature you start to burn the cellulose.
Thoughts?
~~ again, any resident users of vaporizers like the iolite or Ubie that could describe their experiences with those devices as they relate to tobacco satiation could answer whether the 200C vaporization temperature is sufficient. It's possible that the steam from the moisture in the tobacco could carry over a substantial amount.

 

[Timberwear]

I had a vapor brothers vaporizer... Last year I would vaporize tobacco out of that... it was nice... a good nicotine high. But DEFINiTELY not like smoking the tobacco...

I got all carried away in my thoughts, thinking I had found some holy grail and could quit smoking for good, by just vaporizing tobacco... I never made it more than a few hours, despite the fact that I kept trying. I like the relaxation effect the cigarette gave... or at least, I just was addicted to whatever combustion chemicals I was getting from smoking organic american spirit...

I'm thinking when my ecig arrives soon, I will probably be dissapointed in it because of that... right now I've been smoking cooked american spirit tobacco (since i already basically quit nicotine-already written about that, but anyway) and it provides something that I seem to want and seem to need... without the nicotine stimulation.

2 cents

 

[kinabaloo]

I suspect the vapor will appear at a lower temp as was found to be the case for nic (~130C rather than 247C); and that might apply for salt forms of the carbolines too which may be only lightly bonded as is the case for the nic salts found in tobacco. Then there is the ejected droplets effect. And also the fact tat the atomizer will happily go over 400C as the coil dries.

So my best guess is that vaping WTA will work just fine. Indeed, DVap's testing already confirmed that.

ps: using snufs instead of tobacco for extract making - or dessicating/mashing the tobacco first - is also worth considering.

 

[kinabaloo]

I had a vapor brothers vaporizer... Last year I would vaporize tobacco out of that... it was nice... a good nicotine high. But DEFINiTELY not like smoking the tobacco...

Maybe it disnt get hot emough to release the MAOIs. Or perhaps the sights and sounds and flavors (even the tar and ash) are missed in the way that the smoke/mist is with say snuff - i.e. maybe more psychological?

The e-cig may well help at times one can't smoke, so don't regret your purchase just yet!

 

[nicnac]

should I call the venture capitalists now?

 

[kinabaloo]

should I call the venture capitalists now?

I expect it is being worked on in various places (no inside info but the word will have spread).

If basically a tobacco extract might be half tolerated like usual e-liquid. If a combo of nic and a herbal, not so sure.

~~~

tceight - what happened to the extract you made the other day??

 

[tceight]

I had a vapor brothers vaporizer... Last year I would vaporize tobacco out of that... it was nice... a good nicotine high. But DEFINiTELY not like smoking the tobacco...

I got all carried away in my thoughts, thinking I had found some holy grail and could quit smoking for good, by just vaporizing tobacco... I never made it more than a few hours, despite the fact that I kept trying. I like the relaxation effect the cigarette gave... or at least, I just was addicted to whatever combustion chemicals I was getting from smoking organic american spirit...

I'm thinking when my ecig arrives soon, I will probably be dissapointed in it because of that... right now I've been smoking cooked american spirit tobacco (since i already basically quit nicotine-already written about that, but anyway) and it provides something that I seem to want and seem to need... without the nicotine stimulation.

2 cents

Thanks for the insight Timberwear, I had an intuition that would be the case. The vaporizer just doesn't get hot enough to release a substantial amount of the MAOI's (at least harmine, not sure about the rest)
Cranking up the heat wouldn't work because the cellulose starts to burn at 230 and sugars start to burn at 350, and you are getting all the nasties anyway.
I hope your experience with the E-Cig is a good one, for me I use it with no nic, because the nic just gets me wired and 'needing a cigarette'
It is useful as a pacifier though.
I just wrote a reply on your thread as you were writing here. lol

 

[kinabaloo]

Thanks for the insight Timberwear, I had an intuition that would be the case. The vaporizer just doesn't get hot enough to release a substantial amount of the MAOI's (at least harmine, not sure about the rest)
Cranking up the heat wouldn't work because the cellulose starts to burn at 230 and sugars start to burn at 350, and you are getting all the nasties anyway.
I hope your experience with the E-Cig is a good one, for me I use it with no nic, because the nic just gets me wired and 'needing a cigarette'
It is useful as a pacifier though.
I just wrote a reply on your thread as you were writing here. lol

Seems the solution (solvent) is needed - it somehow lowers the BP by being in a mix, or it's just spat out (so to speak).

Seems that as the salt decomposes the yielded nic is immediately vaporised and this is around 130C or so. And the BT report I linked recently also suggested that free nic also vaporises from tobacco at around 130C rather than 247C. Seems the 247C figure applies only to pure nic liquid and that in leaf (moist) or liquid solvent, a lower temp is sufficient for vaporisation.

Perhaps similar 'lowering of BP' effect will hold for tobacc MAOIs too.

Probability and surface physics. Or lowering the intermolecular 'binding' that is greater in the pure liquid.

~~

'Pacifier' - yeah that could be the word

 

[tceight]

I suspect the vapor will appear at a lower temp as was found to be the case for nic (~130C rather than 247C); and that might apply for salt forms of the carbolines too which may be only lightly bonded as is the case for the nic salts found in tobacco. Then there is the ejected droplets effect. And also the fact tat the atomizer will happily go over 400C as the coil dries.

I'll assume this is true as well, and the temperature required is 1/2 for the harmine, then 200 C might work.... but Timberwear's experience was that vaporizing the tobacco at 200 did not give him 'what was missing'

So my best guess is that vaping WTA will work just fine. Indeed, DVap's testing already confirmed that.

yes, agreed likely from droplet's.
I was thinking about the creation of the liquid using vaporization, being much more difficult with the higher temperature requirements.

dessicating.... mmmm... inert atmosphere, no O2.. a carrier gas, like the woodgas generators for gas engines in WW1.
yep, back on track!!

 

[tceight]

Probability and surface physics. Or lowering the intermolecular 'binding' that is greater in the pure liquid.

or simply, vapor pressure.
kerosene boils at over 200C but I can smell it just fine at room temperature.


~~~ my Mr. Freezie, has not frozen.
I set it up to freeze slowly from the top down, but insulated it too well, and not enough contact area for effective heat transfer.

 

[kinabaloo]

I'll assume this is true as well, and the temperature required is 1/2 for the harmine, then 200 C might work.... but Timberwear's experience was that vaporizing the tobacco at 200 did not give him 'what was missing'

yes, agreed likely from droplet's.
I was thinking about the creation of the liquid using vaporization, being much more difficult with the higher temperature requirements.

dessicating.... mmmm... inert atmosphere, no O2.. a carrier gas, like the woodgas generators for gas engines in WW1.
yep, back on track!!

Hmm, why inhale when you can use compressed air to generate an aerosol !

I remember suggesting a mini fan to make the e-cig an easier draw at one time. Raised a few laughs But I was serious

~~~

I still think we might see a laser based atomiser some day soon too. But why bother with heat; if the idea is to create a mist just use piezoelectric vibration (a cool mist though).

~~~

Re Timberland' experience - as WTA in an atomiser worked, i think it could be down more to the difference in operation and feel of an iolite type device over a cig/e-cig.

 

[tceight]

Hmm, why inhale when you can use compressed air to generate an aerosol !

Like this? I think it's been done.
File:Inhaler2.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Re Timberland' experience - as WTA in an atomiser worked, i think it could be down more to the difference in operation and feel of an iolite type device over a cig/e-cig.

I think the difference is, the dissolved alkaloids get carried over with the droplets in the atomizer, in = % of total concentration of the entire mix.

but with the iolite, you only get the little bit that comes with the steam and what sublimates in the gas stream.