Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[kinabaloo]

This is the site and the product I used:

Pure Harmaline 1 oz Glycerite Tincture extracted from Peganum harmala (Syrian rue)

Thanks - I will take a look shortly.

Just to make it clear to passers by, we are just trying to understand why smoking is more than just nicotine intake, at least for some people. And in thinking of isolating carbolines is only to redilute after - just one clean up approach to leave out the starches and gums and other chemicals in order that a more rounded and effective e-liquid might be possible. The idea is only to have an effective alternative to smoking that would allow people to kick the burning habit.

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Hmm, trying to work out why the addition of the tincture would blow atomisers faster. Strange as I wouldn't expect it to leave much dry residue or raise the atomiser temperature through alcohol content. Maybe just coincidence. My recent atomiser failures have all been the joints failing (those to the casing / plug rather than where the bichrome joins to copper wires).

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Agree re MJ, it's not the effect we need, although it might be a matter of dose, as ever; same with alcohol or coffee - one can certainly over do it!

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100mg / ml ! That would fefinitely need diluting. In tobacco, the carboline alkaloids makes up a much smaller fraction that nicotine. So maybe 1ml in something like 25-50ml of e-liquid would perhaps be suitable; say one part in 35 or just 3% tincture; maybe less.

 

[kinabaloo]

Uneverno - On the tincture, as the carboline alkaloid content of tobacco is much less than that of nicotine,

Perhaps something more like 1% or less overall volume (ratio) of tincture (if 100mg/ml) would be better than the 20% by volume you mentioned.

Also, although Syrian Rue has a far higher carboline content, its spread of active alkaloids might not be as close to tobacco as PF; would need more research to decide.

I'm assuming here that the amount of carbolines absorbed from smoking tobacco is about 30 times less than the nicotine.

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% content of the alkaloids in tobacco (~2% of tobacco is alkaloids)
------------------------------------
95% nicotine
2-3% nornicotine
2-3% anatabine
0.3% anabasine

http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=p08101327vt767xg&size=largest

[interesting that this paper says that aqeous ammonia helps free the alkaoids from the tobacco tissue as well as freebasing the alkaloids. also, the nornicotine content is seen as undesirable]

So in fact we would need only about 3% of the total alkaloids as carbolines.

So if mixing a 100mg/ml tincture with say a 20mg/ml e-liquid, 1ml tincture to 150ml e-liquid might be about right (less than 1 part in a hundred). The 150 figure comes from needing 30x less carbolines x 5 because the tincture in this case is 5x stronger. (Though a weaker tincture would be used more liberally.) (Hence the tincture could go a long long way.)

So, Uneverno, you were using about 25x too much tincture - no wonder it was too strong! If use 1 part tincture in 150 parts e-liquid, the result should be much better. If no effect maybe try 1 part in 100 (of the 100mg/ml tincture).

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The astute will notice that relative content might not match inhaled (released) values, but it's a start.

 

[kinabaloo]

This thread is about E-liquid though, and I believe the advantage that inhalation has is the cause/effect gratification and better self titration due to the near instant onset. (this actually makes it much safer too)

Good point. Yes, this plus the psychological aspects of puffing and blowing out a mist make vaping the winner in terms of overall architecture of the solution. For me at least, though a few might do fine with an infusion or gum or a pill.

 

[tescela]

Good point. Yes, this plus the psychological aspects of puffing and blowing out a mist make vaping the winner in terms of overall architecture of the solution. For me at least, though a few might do fine with an infusion or gum or a pill.

Ideally, vaping would be one of multiple short-acting tools for self-titration to achieve the desired normalizing effect. Many enjoy the physical act (whether it be vaping or smoking) sometimes, but find it bothersome at other times. (Perhaps "many" is too conservative...perhaps this is true for most people that vape or smoke.)

Ultimately, I think that many of us would like to whittle this down to the point that vaping is akin to cigar smoking, in the sense that typical cigar smokers only smoke when they want to engage in the physical action.

 

[kinabaloo]

Ultimately, I think that many of us would like to whittle this down to the point that vaping is akin to cigar smoking, in the sense that typical cigar smokers only smoke when they want to engage in the physical action.

Fair point.

Ideally we will find an e-liquid that is satisfying ithout being 'addictive', but that might not be possible.

Certainly though even if providing a way to go free of any of this, a better understanding is needed than 'it's all about the nic.' - which actually has been known for quite some time, yet remains largely unaddressed.

 

[HeatherC]

A Psychologist I've been seeing says that the psychological component of smoking...the hand to mouth thing...the social thing which isn't as huge now as it was when i started smoking...is actually more powerful than the nicotine alone. and he has the letters PhD after his name which makes me think he has SOME idea about this...(not really sure tho cuz those letters mean little anymore LOL)

 

[kinabaloo]

A Psychologist I've been seeing says that the psychological component of smoking...the hand to mouth thing...the social thing which isn't as huge now as it was when i started smoking...is actually more powerful than the nicotine alone. and he has the letters PhD after his name which makes me think he has SOME idea about this...(not really sure tho cuz those letters mean little anymore LOL)

I'd agree (somewhat) that it is a big(ish) part, but certainly not sufficient.

 

[HeatherC]

No it's not everything...but it is something LOL

 

[kinabaloo]

No it's not everything...but it is something LOL

Sure, that's why I have very little interest in snufs (except as an interesting material fr extraction of an e-liquid).

So for me it is necessary but not sufficient.

And I wouldn't go for a pill no matter how perfect, for this reason. But who knows, it could be useful.

 

[kinabaloo]

3 or 4 weeks ago I switched to decaff (nearly always) because the strength and quantity i liked did sometimes cause a racing heart etc.

Yet I still head for the coffee just as before and after this time feel there is still something in it that I like beyond just flavor and aroma (and trace caffeine). Maybe the body just loves those healthful polyphenol antioxidants

Biochemistry is nothing if not a bit complex.

 

[tescela]

Fair point.

Ideally we will find an e-liquid that is satisfying ithout being 'addictive', but that might not be possible.

Certainly though even if providing a way to go free of any of this, a better understanding is needed than 'it's all about the nic.' - which actually has been known for quite some time, yet remains largely unaddressed.

To your point, that nicotine is only one contributing component to the beneficial effect of tobacco consumption has been publicly-available information since at least as far back as the late-1990's. The pace of progress in addressing this has been glacial, but the good news is that the expansion of internet usage has been -- and will be -- accelerating the pace. It isn't that the scientific research hasn't been out there, it has been a matter of the spread of awareness and the increased rate at which interested parties are collaborating and pushing forward toward solutions.

Despite this subforum being named "Nicotine," it contains the collaboration and information-sharing that I perceive to be the tip of the spear that is progress toward a comprehensive suite of solutions.

For the sake of emphasis, let's break down what I stated in my previous post:

"Ideally, vaping would be one of multiple short-acting tools for self-titration to achieve the desired normalizing effect."

Those words were carefully chosen, because I believe they contain the key criteria and the overarching objective...

Normalization is a moving target, because our internal states shift from day to day and through the course of each day.

Achieving normalization in our dynamic physiological and psychological states requires self-titration with short-acting tools.


Other than perhaps vaping WTA eLiquid, everything (other than unrestricted smoking) up to this point appears to be half-measures that have a somewhat normalizing effect, but fall far short of the goal of being able to fine-tune to a steady optimal state.

I'm laying this out in a more explicit form, because I'm curious to know if everyone reading this thread is on the same page with regard to the overarching objective and the key criteria that (presumably) must be met in order to achieve it.

 

[HeatherC]

YES!!! I think thats the goal for everyone....at least it is for me. (why else would I take prozac for more than 10 yrs and pristiq for the last two)

 

[tescela]

YES!!! I think thats the goal for everyone....at least it is for me. (why else would I take prozac for more than 10 yrs and pristiq for the last two)

To be clear, if that is the objective, then those pharmaceuticals would not meet the short-acting and self-titration criteria, right? (I know very little about either of those drugs, but I have the vague notion that they take effect over a lengthy period of time.)

IMHO, adjustments with pharmaceuticals like those you mentioned are akin to trying to adapt to shifting weather patterns by changing course in a supertanker AND the person steering the ship is not directly observing the shifting weather patterns (i.e., a crude, slow process that is virtually guaranteed to yield suboptimal results). Then there is the seemingly inevitable negative side effects of pharmaceuticals, which I won't even attempt to relate to this analogy.

In contrast, I believe we are seeking the equivalent of a speedboat with which the person steering the boat can directly observe shifting weather patterns and adjust course virtually instantaneously as those patterns evolve.

 

[HeatherC]

prozac has a fairly long half-life after stopping it it can take weeks for it to leave your body.... pristiq I haven't researched the half-life of it...guess I'm kinda afraid of what I'll find. And yes I agree suboptimal results are definitely part of the whole reason I keep looking for something better.

I was in a motor vehicle accident in Dec of 92 coma for 2 and a half weeks. They say my brain chemistry is messed up and the way to fix it is meds....I hate it...but so far its the only way I have.

 

[VaporMadness]

I keep seeing this thread's title in the "New Posts" but admittedly I haven't read it. Nonetheless...

I've kicked the MAOI habit, still have the nicotine habit. I have zero interest in bringing back the MAOIs. Good riddance.

 

[BCB]

I would agree with Tescela's summary of the goal we seek. As someone else on this forum said, cigarettes were the perfect drug--made you more alert when you wanted that, relaxed you when you were stressed. Instant mood regulator. Fulfilled many psychological unmet needs. I know when I once quit smoking for 2 years I was NEVER happy. Finally decided I didn't want to live that way and began smoking again. I'm OK now with e-cigs and snus, but a WTA vape sure sounds good to me!

 

[tceight]

The technical chemistry between you and kinabaloo is WAY over my head--..... I skim those posts as an exercise in humility, but I don't understand them.

I wrote some of them, and barely understand them. lol
Thanks for the encouragement, and input BCB.

 

[tceight]

Good point. Yes, this plus the psychological aspects of puffing and blowing out a mist make vaping the winner in terms of overall architecture of the solution. For me at least, though a few might do fine with an infusion or gum or a pill.

Ideally, vaping would be one of multiple short-acting tools for self-titration to achieve the desired normalizing effect. Many enjoy the physical act (whether it be vaping or smoking) sometimes, but find it bothersome at other times. (Perhaps "many" is too conservative...perhaps this is true for most people that vape or smoke.)

Ultimately, I think that many of us would like to whittle this down to the point that vaping is akin to cigar smoking, in the sense that typical cigar smokers only smoke when they want to engage in the physical action.

Yes! thanks Tescela, that is exactly what I was trying to convey.
The entire notion that "my hand going to my mouth and white mist coming out my nose" is a 'requirement' seems kind of silly, but that is how our brains are wired, by association not reason. One of BF Skinner's box experiments (accidentally) found how easy it was to make superstitious pigeons. If a pigeon happened to be standing on one foot when the food came, then it reinforced the bird to stand on one food, and it believed that is what made the food come.
We do the same thing all the time subconsciously, indeed over 80% of our thoughts never get cognitive attention at all. I drive a standard car, and when I get in my wife's automatic, my hand is constantly reaching for the shifter and I am putting my left foot through the floor.

This is the habit that can be broken as new associations are made with new devices (process called LTP, long term potentiation of neuronal pathways) through repetition and association.
One must be careful when using any instant 'reward' like nicotine/alkaloids as this is what drives the addictive potential... the instant effect.
With things like antidepressants, they are designed to build up a baseline of metabolites in the body and you don't subconsciously link the dopamine/serotonin/norepinephrine etc. to the pill.
Luckily for us, as we are fining now the brain is infinitely plastic. (breaking down the accepted models of the past 100 years) a great intro book into
neuroplasticity written for the layman is "the Brain that Changes Itself" by Dr. Norman Doidge.

 

[HeatherC]

Guess I have some reading to do....sounds like that might tell me how my injury is A. repairing itself and B. maybe a little of what goes wrong when it goes wrong...I never know til after the fact so can't stop it...don't really know what causes it...so I take meds to make it managable and it is...to an extent...as u said Tescela suboptimal results

 

[tceight]

3 or 4 weeks ago I switched to decaff... Maybe the body just loves those healthful polyphenol antioxidants

Biochemistry is nothing if not a bit complex.

very complex... you may want to research some of the latest studies that just finished up 20year research studies into caffeine. It is all epidemiological, ( a few in vitro 'confirmations') but the finding's on the neuroprotective qualities of caffeine are quite compelling.