Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[kinabaloo]

Like this? I think it's been done.
File:Inhaler2.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Re Timberland' experience - as WTA in an atomiser worked, i think it could be down more to the difference in operation and feel of an iolite type device over a cig/e-cig.

I think the difference is, the dissolved alkaloids get carried over with the droplets in the atomizer, in = % of total concentration of the entire mix.

but with the iolite, you only get the little bit that comes with the steam and what sublimates in the gas stream.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Though would add the lowered vaporisation point when in solution (BP is just a figure for the pure liquid after all).

 

[tceight]

I think the difference is, the dissolved alkaloids get carried over with the droplets in the atomizer, in = % of total concentration of the entire mix.

but with the iolite, you only get the little bit that comes with the steam and what sublimates in the gas stream.

Agreed. Though would add the lowered vaporisation point when in solution (BP is just a figure for the pure liquid after all).[/QUOTE]
yes, just like you can't distill alcohol at exactly 78C, and get 100 % distillate.
it starts vaporizing well before boiling, and both water and alcohol come over, even if you never approach 100C.
ECF is painfully slow, off to bed.
goodnight.

 

[kinabaloo]

goodnight!

 

[Timberwear]

Another thought. Maybe we are after the oils more than the alkaloids. I like the thought though that the alkaloids need to be freed from the tobacco before being able to vape them in an ecig. That could explain my vaporizer experience. I just smoked this water soaked tobacco, a few hits, and something in my head brightened and pretty sure it's not nicotine. I really need to test it more but I just donthave any more desire for it or unadulturated tobacco after smoking that. Could be placebo but I felt a brightening.

 

[kinabaloo]

Another thought. Maybe we are after the oils more than the alkaloids. I like the thought though that the alkaloids need to be freed from the tobacco before being able to vape them in an ecig. That could explain my vaporizer experience. I just smoked this water soaked tobacco, a few hits, and something in my head brightened and pretty sure it's not nicotine. I really need to test it more but I just donthave any more desire for it or unadulturated tobacco after smoking that. Could be placebo but I felt a brightening.

Hope this works out over the next few days to distinguish it from placebo effect. Although 24 hours seems a long time, perhaps the key is that the water was cold.

 

[kinabaloo]

deleted due to lack of interest.

 

[tceight]

CigRX seems to have focused on anatabine as the alkaloid of choice, while checking out anatabine properties, I found that it is one that is an MAO-B inhibitor!

this is the one we want, because neurotoxins are formed when dopamine is broken down by MAO-B . Tyramine requires MAO-A, so no cheese effect, if one was so worried...( its a RIMA anyway)

Selegeline is also an MAO-B Inhibitor and has a lot of research behind it. This is all from a health standpoint, not necessarily a satiation effectiveness standpoint.

Interesting that CigRX also included caffeine to the mix, Stimulant/relaxant...... the ying and yang. It's all about balance.
~~~

Mr. Freezie looks interesting. It's a coffee tan colour throughout, so it has frozen into the water matrix, at least some of the hydrogen bondable contaminants, then there is a definite partition, about 2 mm, of a light brown that I believe to be triglycerides, and then above that, about a centimeter of much darker liquid that I hope are the salts. I'll have to measure it all out, but it appears to have concentrated things by an order of magnitude.

 

[tceight]

deleted due to lack of interest.

what was it?

 

[nicnac]

deleted due to lack of interest.

Yeah, what was it?

 

[kinabaloo]

Oh, here it is :

 

[tceight]

do we need the E-Cig?

1. Initially, the E-Cig replaced the cigarette, and was made to look and act as much like one as possible.

Soon, people realized that wasn't necessary or even desirable.

Now, vaping is distancing itself, and most new E-Cigs try NOT to look like a cigarette/cigar. It did not take long for peoples automatic associations to change, and accept the penstyle as the thing to reach for when they needed a 'smoke'.

2. NRT has tried various methods without success (for most) because it has focused on 'nicotine', but it's delivery methods have been varied, with equal 'unsuccess'.

3. now 'we' know that nicotine is not necessarily the answer, or at least not all of it, and Star Scientific has picked up that ball and is running with in focusing on anabantine.

4. we are attempting to use a similar approach, focusing on B-Carbolines and a WTA approach.

5. our troubles come into play, by attempting to make a suitable 'vaping' liquid, to support # 1. above.

6. WTA is easy, if we use other methods than heated "vaping". (Snus, etc.)
This thread is about E-liquid though, and I believe the advantage that inhalation has is the cause/effect gratification and better self titration due to the near instant onset. (this actually makes it much safer too)

7. there are other advantages to 'cleaning up' our extractions, such as reduction of TSNA's. I've read reports about commercial E-Liquids having these same contaminants too.

8. my point? I don't know... just rambling thoughts.

We have the WTA already, but not vapable with present vaping tech. New tech that accomplishes the same goal of near instant gratification, and accurate titration. Maybe something as simple as a bottle of alkaline water, sip away at it.... 200 ml of water to deliver 2-4 mg of WTA might just be all we need, no vapor, no batteries, no glowing LED's.

Wish I was half as eloquent as Kinabaloo, but I hope I managed to get my point across.

 

[tceight]

Oh, here it is :
Not sure how soluble nicotine hydrochloride is (at least partly). Seems this is worth considering as a possible first step. Might give the chemists an idea and perhaps an improved methodology that is also reasonably simple.

I did read this on here, it's fractional precipitation. couldnt figure out how to make it work with nicotine.. maybe with REALLY cold solvent.

~~~ nicotine hydrochloride is very soluble.
~~~basic 'primer' for background on alkaloid extractions etc.
http://www.alazhar.edu.ps/staff/21/Manual Alkaloids Phytochemistry 3.pdf

 

[kinabaloo]

I did read this on here, it's fractional precipitation. couldnt figure out how to make it work with nicotine.. maybe with REALLY cold solvent.

~~~ nicotine hydrochloride is very soluble.

The first method - acetic followed by ammonium hydroxide to precipitate the salts might be more promising then for WTA.

 

[tceight]

The first method - acetic followed by ammonium hydroxide to precipitate the salts might be more promising then for WTA.

I think that process as described works for the harmine alkaloids, because the salts formed are soluble in acid, but not in the alkaline solution, so they precipitate....
notice that you don't get back the harmaline.

 

[kinabaloo]

I think that process as described works for the harmine alkaloids, because the salts formed are soluble in acid, but not in the alkaline solution, so they precipitate....
notice that you don't get back the harmaline.

Are you sure about that? Should be able to get both.

See http://www.erowid.org/plants/syrian_rue/syrian_rue_extraction2.shtml

 

[tceight]

Are you sure about that? Should be able to get both.
http://www.erowid.org/plants/syrian_rue/syrian_rue_extraction2.shtml

not sure about anything... more open minded that way.
I'm just stating what it said in the post you posted, and was referring to the 1st method.


1st: method, with vinegar and ammonia,
" evap solution to yield 97-98% pure Harmine."


............
2cd: method "Total alkaloid Extraction ........... .
1. Powderize plant material and add to 300 ML distilled water.
2. Filter through coffe filter and evap.
............. yields brown to black extract

3rd method, was the erowid one with NaCl
"transform the acetates of harmine and harmaline into the hydrochlorides which are insoluble in cold sodium chloride solutions and are precipitated during cooling..."
This does suggest harmine and harmaline both precipitate.

I did read somewhere about nicotine picrate crystals precipitating out of a solution, maybe on the Tobacco Documents somewhere. I doubt we will ever be using picric acids in the kitchen. It might make for an e-xplosive vape.

 

[BCB]

Re: tceights' post: Do we need the e-cig?

I really liked this rambling. The technical chemistry between you and kinabaloo is WAY over my head--I barely passed chem 30 years ago and retained almost nothing. I skim those posts as an exercise in humility, but I don't understand them.

However, the idea that we can get the WTA's some way other than vaping is worthy. Thanks for ruminating on this for the rest of us. Keep up the good work! If I could get what I need without using snus between lip and gums, I'd be a happy camper.

 

[boz]

I am most willing to look at all the possiblities here for possible co-factors but at present my money is still on MAOIs as accounting for the bulk of the 'missing' effect.

After personal experimentation I can pretty much say with a high degree of certainty (based on my use and effects of different dosages) that one of the constituents would be
Pure Harmaline.

I tested this in a concentrated form and it definitely packs a hell of a punch. Much like MJ in it's effects when used at a 20% mix, which was way too strong and was more of a druge hit than what we are looking for. I didn't try lower concentrates because the mix was blowing atties after about an hours use so I've put it aside for the moment and will be trying passion flower extract next.

Keep up the work guys, we have to figure this out.

 

[kinabaloo]

After personal experimentation I can pretty much say with a high degree of certainty (based on my use and effects of different dosages) that one of the constituents would be
Pure Harmaline.

I tested this in a concentrated form and it definitely packs a hell of a punch. Much like MJ in it's effects when used at a 20% mix, which was way too strong and was more of a druge hit than what we are looking for. I didn't try lower concentrates because the mix was blowing atties after about an hours use so I've put it aside for the moment and will be trying passion flower extract next.

Keep up the work guys, we have to figure this out.

Thanks for the feedback / update.

What form did you use ? Pure harmaline ? From where ?

 

[boz]

Thanks for the feedback / update.

What form did you use ? Pure harmaline ? From where ?

This is the site and the product I used:

Pure Harmaline 1 oz Glycerite Tincture extracted from Peganum harmala (Syrian rue)