Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[kinabaloo]

kinabaloo - are you saying that if 20g of tobacco is used (a medium sized pouch) then only 1ml of acidified water should be used at the oil stage? Surely it would be impossible to syringe such a tiny amount off?

That's a minimum. There is both a 'minimum' strength of acid (pH1.9) and a minimum amount (volume) of acid (that DVAp did the calculation for).

edit : sorry, I meant 10 ml for 20g starting tobacco

edit : I think 25g citric acid in 100ml would be best concentration as can use a lower volume and get a reasonable concentration at the end.

So now 20g tobacco would need 2ml of the 25% acid.

 

[DVap]

Very good point.

I guess best simple way to ensure this is with a simple look up table, somethi1ng like :

Tobacco/snus weight Minimum acidified water volume
0 - 20g 1ml
30g 1.5ml
40g 2ml
...
100g 5ml

Based on 1mg alklaoids / g. If tobacc is higher in alkaloid content, scale up accordingly.
~~~

Probably also a good idea to wash the oil with distilled water first to remove any lingering carbonate solution.

1 mg alkaloids/gram tobacco would be 0.1% alkaloids. Are you off by a factor of 10, I.E. shouldn't it be 10 mg alkaloids per gram of tobacco?

 

[kinabaloo]

1 mg alkaloids/gram tobacco would be 0.1% alkaloids. Are you off by a factor of 10, I.E. shouldn't it be 10 mg alkaloids per gram of tobacco?

Oops. Sorry had just woke up (after only a few hours sleep). Thanks for catching that. Will change it.

~~~

100mg alkaloids from 10g tobacco.
Volume acidified water required: 5ml

This would be 20mg / ml
And after diluting 1:4 with VG, only 4mg / ml

So we need less volume of acidified water which means we need a stronger acid.
So to end up at ~20mg/ml we need a 25% citric acid solution, not a 5% one.
So 25g in 100 ml

Further, this means that 20g is about the minimume tobacco quantity that is workable, and that means only 2ml of acid water should be used if want 20mg/ml at the end.

40g tobacco (medium pouch / 2 packs of superking cigs) is more ideal. This would require 4ml of acidified water (25g citric acid in 100ml distilled water; or 1g in 4ml if you can measure that small; that is 1.3M or 25%w/v). After diluting 1:4 with VG (4x as much VG), the nicotine/akaloid strength will be ~20mg/ml

 

[DVap]

Hey.. once you guys come up with a fairly agreed upon procedure, would someone let me know where it is so I can look for anything that might seem "off" in the amounts, assumptions etc?

There might be some fairly non-technical/non-hazardous tricks that could be applied to improve things. Seems things are starting to settle down toward a standard procedure, so a set of practiced eyeballs might be a good thing. I really don't endorse, nor do I dissuade from the kitchen WTA procedure (is it alright to call it that?). It's not really my baby, but no harm in helping to deliver it.

 

[kinabaloo]

Hey.. once you guys come up with a fairly agreed upon procedure, would someone let me know where it is so I can look for anything that might seem "off" in the amounts, assumptions etc?

There might be some fairly non-technical/non-hazardous tricks that could be applied to improve things. Seems things are starting to settle down toward a standard procedure, so a set of practiced eyeballs might be a good thing. I really don't endorse, nor do I dissuade from the kitchen WTA procedure (is it alright to call it that?). It's not really my baby, but no harm in helping to deliver it.

Any simple way to remove the excess acid after the final stage, such as with a particular alkali that creates an insoluble salt (or are there no insoluble ascorbates) ?

 

[slopes]

40g toabacco is more ideal. This would require 4ml of acidified water (25g citric acid in 100ml distilled water; or 1g in 4ml if you can measure that small). After diluting 1:4 with VG (4x as much VG), the nicotine.akaloid strength will be ~20mg/ml

This still looks rather confusing to my eyes. As a laymen, I'd much rather see something like "dissolve a quarter tsp of citric acid into 10ml water" - if such an instruction roughly equates with the quantities kinabaloo is giving.

 

[kinabaloo]

This still looks rather confusing to my eyes. As a laymen, I'd much rather see something like "dissolve a quarter tsp of citric acid into 10ml water" - if such an instruction roughly equates with the quantities kinabaloo is giving.

40g tobacco (medium pouch / 2 packs of superking cigs). Makes 25ml of ~16mg/ml WTA

Once the alkaloids are in the oil, prepare the acidified water.

5ml of acidified water is required.
Make this by dissolving 25g citric acid in 100ml distilled water; or 1g in 5ml if you can measure that small.

Add the 5ml to the oil and shake well several times over 1/2 hour or so.
Let separate fully (an hour or so).
Extract the lower water layer.

After diluting 1:4 with VG (4x as much VG), the nicotine/akaloid strength will be ~16mg/ml

~~~

Technical notes

Assuming 10mg alkaloids / gram baccy
So 400mg total in oil. After perfect acid extraction into 5ml water, that's 400/5 mg/ml, ~80mg/ml
After diluting 1:4 with VG will be ~16mg/ml

25g citric acid in 100ml water has a pH of 1.5 Should ensure close to 100% extraction from the oil.
5ml of this citric acid solution ensures sufficient acid to buffer all the alkaloids.
Citric acid content in end-product: 1.25g in 25ml; 0.05g / ml (50mg / ml)

 

[DVap]

Here's some good news...

I've finally done the determination on the WTA I made by starting with tobacco, sodium carbonate, and mineral oil.

I mixed it for 30 mg, and 30 mg (within a few percent) is the result I got. This says that the stuff I recovered was in all likelihood... alkaloids.

Since I used (I think) 17 grams of tobacco and only bother to recover half the oil, and got 100 mg of alkaloids, the yield correcting for total oil volume was 200 mg. 200 mg from 17 grams of tobacco is just over 1% alkaloids (assuming full recovery).

Who knows what the real alkaloid recovery is, but the alkaloid recovery is comparable at least to what I get with the far more technical lab procedure.

So sodium carbonate modified tobacco into mineral oil is confirmed as effective (with the caveat that this applies most appropriately to how I did the mineral oil extraction.. back quite a few pages.. but the overall conclusion is that mineral oil/sodium carbonate/tobacco should result in effective transfer of alkaloids to the oil).

Assuming you've done a good extraction, and you aggressively recover the oil, 1% is a good round number to expect. So for every 20 grams of tobacco used, 200 mg of alkaloids should end up in the oil.

Now, how much of that 200 mg alkaloids per 20 grams tobacco ultimately ends up in the citric acid solution hasn't been determined, so it would be premature to assume a 100% transfer... but up to 200 mg of alkaloids will be transferred to the citric acid solution.

So this brings up a practical issue (and a safety issue): The minimum volume of citric acid solution to use. If you've partitioned 200 mg of alkaloids to the citric acid solution, then using 5 mL of acid will result in a 40 mg/mL alkaloid concentration. Not recommended. It might be wiser to use 10 mL of acid to put the alkaloid concentration in the citric acid solution closer to 20 mg/mL. So, the overall point is simply: Be careful not to end up with too high an alkaloid concentration.

 

[kinabaloo]

Here's some good news...

So this brings up a practical issue (and a safety issue): The minimum volume of citric acid solution to use. If you've partitioned 200 mg of alkaloids to the citric acid solution, then using 5 mL of acid will result in a 40 mg/mL alkaloid concentration. Not recommended. It might be wiser to use 10 mL of acid to put the alkaloid concentration in the citric acid solution closer to 20 mg/mL. So, the overall point is simply: Be careful not to end up with too high an alkaloid concentration.

Yes good news. I always had confidence in the first stage.

Re the alkaloid concentration - don't forget it will be diluted into 4-5 times more VG

40g tobacco gives 400mg alkaloids. Use 4ml acidified water; gives 100mg/ml Dilute 1:4 with VG : final strength is a reasonable 20mg/ml (20ml of)

 

[DVap]

I really don't know much about ascorbate solubility off the top of my head (wait, is it citric acid or ascorbic acid being used?).

In either case, the sodium and potassium salts are water soluble. Given the constraints of the procedure, you're probably stuck with the acid. To get rid of the acid, you'd need to go all chemist on it and isolate the alkaloids... which adds considerable technical difficulty and hazard. Or someone could have an inspiration and figure something out nobody has considered.

 

[kinabaloo]

I really don't know much about ascorbate solubility off the top of my head (wait, is it citric acid or ascorbic acid being used?).

In either case, the sodium and potassium salts are water soluble. Given the constraints of the procedure, you're probably stuck with the acid. To get rid of the acid, you'd need to go all chemist on it and isolate the alkaloids... which adds considerable technical difficulty and hazard. Or someone could have an inspiration and figure something out nobody has considered.

Oops - citates I meant

Just thought i'd mention it just in case.

50mg / ml citric acid is, hmmm, not toooo bad

 

[DVap]

40g tobacco (medium pouch / 2 packs of superking cigs). Makes 20ml of ~20mg/ml WTA

Once the alkaloids are in the oil, prepare the acidified water.

4ml of acidified water is required.
Make this by dissolving 25g citric acid in 100ml distilled water; or 1g in 4ml if you can measure that small.

Add the 4ml to the oil and shake well several times over 1/2 hour or so.
Let separate fully (an hour or so).
Extract the lower water layer.

After diluting 1:4 with VG (4x as much VG), the nicotine/akaloid strength will be ~20mg/ml

~~~

Technical notes

Assuming 10mg alkaloids / gram baccy
So 400mg total in oil. After perfect acid extraction into 4ml water, that's 400/4 mg/ml, ~100mg/ml
After diluting 1:4 with VG will be ~20mg/ml

25g citric acid in 100ml water has a pH of 1.5 Should ensure close to 100% extraction from the oil.
4ml of this citric acid solution ensures sufficient acid to buffer all the alkaloids.
Citric acid content in end-product: 1g in 20ml; 0.05g / ml (50mg / ml)

So 400 mg of alkaloids (that we will assume have an average molecular weight similar to nicotine's ~162 grams/mole.

[0.4 g/162g/mole] * 1000 millmoles/mole = ~ 2.5 millimoles alkaloids.

25 grams citric acid to 100 mL in water. Not sure if it will be anhydrous or the monohydrate, so we can assume a molecular weight of 200 g/mole. So we have 0.125 moles/100 mL or 1.25 moles/liter. 1.25 moles/liter is the same as 1.25 millimoles/mL. Each millimole of acid will have to work double-duty to protonate both sites on the tobacco alkaloids, so it will take 5 millimoles of citric acid to protonate 2.5 millimoles of alkaloids. At 1.25 millimoles/mL, 5 millimoles would be present in 4 mL of the acid.

I'd want to see a little acid in excess to assure the alkaloids are overwhelmed.. I'd be inclined to use 5 mL of the citric acid solution instead of 4 mL and dilute to 20 mL in glycerin such that instead of diluting the acid 5X, it's diluted 4X. Perhaps a bit overly-cautious, but also perhaps worth consideration.

 

[kinabaloo]

So 400 mg of alkaloids (that we will assume have an average molecular weight similar to nicotine's ~162 grams/mole.

[0.4 g/162g/mole] * 1000 millmoles/mole = ~ 2.5 millimoles alkaloids.

25 grams citric acid to 100 mL in water. Not sure if it will be anhydrous or the monohydrate, so we can assume a molecular weight of 200 g/mole. So we have 0.125 moles/100 mL or 1.25 moles/liter. 1.25 moles/liter is the same as 1.25 millimoles/mL. Each millimole of acid will have to work double-duty to protonate both sites on the tobacco alkaloids, so it will take 5 millimoles of citric acid to protonate 2.5 millimoles of alkaloids. At 1.25 millimoles/mL, 5 millimoles would be present in 4 mL of the acid.

I'd want to see a little acid in excess to assure the alkaloids are overwhelmed.. I'd be inclined to use 5 mL of the citric acid solution instead of 4 mL and dilute to 20 mL in glycerin such that instead of diluting the acid 5X, it's diluted 4X. Perhaps a bit overly-cautious, but also perhaps worth consideration.

Fair enough, especially as the tobacco alkaloid content is probably nearer to 1.2% than 1%.

However, 25% water might not vape too well, not sure. If add VG to 25ml total volume (20% water) that#s still 16mg/mg, not bad.

 

[DVap]

Fair enough, especially as the tobacco alkaloid content is probably nearer to 1.2% than 1%.

However, 25% water might not vape too well, not sure. If add VG to 25ml total volume (20% water) that#s still 16mg/mg, not bad.

Hmm... then maybe give the acid solution some help. Instead of 25 g to 100 mL, use 32 g/100 mL. And probably make sure the total final volume is 100 mL, not 32g plus 100 mL water. Not sure if that was specified.

 

[kardenm]

Where canI find citric acid? Will ascorbic acid work just as well?

 

[kardenm]

I really don't know much about ascorbate solubility off the top of my head (wait, is it citric acid or ascorbic acid being used?).

In either case, the sodium and potassium salts are water soluble. Given the constraints of the procedure, you're probably stuck with the acid. To get rid of the acid, you'd need to go all chemist on it and isolate the alkaloids... which adds considerable technical difficulty and hazard. Or someone could have an inspiration and figure something out nobody has considered.

Harmine and harmaline can be isolated by crystallization.

Erowid Syrian Rue Vaults: Extraction 2 : Acetic Acid Extract (per Mankse)

Can such a method be applied to wta??

 

[slopes]

Where canI find citric acid? Will ascorbic acid work just as well?

I got some today in a cook shop (herbs and spices etc). 50g.

 

[tceight]

Where canI find citric acid? Will ascorbic acid work just as well?

like slopes said, any well stocked spice store.
They would know it as "sour salt"

 

[tceight]

great to see some numbers being crunched. Now, if only the alkaloids knew math, then they would do what they were supposed to. ;-)

still plugging away here, scaling everything up didn't work out so well as I had hoped. Numerous bugs, and my bag of tricks that works with the smaller amount's aren't working so well.

I used more water than I normally would, and far more oil. What I ended up with was a big jar of 'goo'. (remember that I'm using fine ground tobacco).
out of the 200ml of oil, i only recovered about 40ml by pouring it off the top.

my attempts at pressing the goo/paste have been fruitless, so I had to set up a large scale interface method to recover the oil.

Instead of using oil to displace the oil down, I'm attempting to introduce alkalized water slowly to the bottom. As the water flows up, it displaces the oil.
On top of the goo, I have put a filter and cap arrangement that seems to be working, as (so far) I have recovered an additional 50ml of clear yellow oil.

That's the 'other' difference this time... the recovered oil is a deep yellow, as opposed to before when it was more of an amber colour. Thinking it was more contaminant's before, when I was attempting maximal 'concentration', and now I am using 4X's as much oil so percentage of contaminant per ml is less?

 

[kinabaloo]

Sounds like trying to filter marmalade

~~~

In the case of leaf tobacco it is as well to simply mash it gently; no advantage in chopping it up, I think. Snus would still be a problem though.