Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[kinabaloo]

How about this. Comments please.

WTA is not advised for people who are happy vaping nicotine only e-liquid and should only be considered by those who are at risk of returning to smoking.
Furthermore, the method cannot guarantee that only alkaloids will exist in the end-product. Nor can it be said that the alkaloids are themselves harmless. There might be traces of other substances from the tobacco carried over, It is also possible a trace amount of mineral oil will exist in the final product. Also, there will certainly be citric acid in the final product.
We do this at our own risk, and the risk is non-zero. If an individual is uncomfortable with the procedure or is not willing to accept full personal responsibility for following the procedure along with full personal responsibility for any side-effect either known, suspected, or unanticipated, then the individual should not attempt the procedure.
The method should be carried out with care and all equipment cleaned thorughly after use. e-liquids should always be stored securely.

 

[kinabaloo]

Above 153°C citric acid can decompose to create carbon monoxide.

Citric Acid Solution reacts with alkaline substances
to generate heat. Aqueous solutions have corrosive
effects on metals including carbon steels, 304
stainless steel, copper, aluminium and zinc alloys.
This may result in the formation of hydrogen to
produce explosive mixtures. These solutions also
decompose cement-based products and attack
some plastics such as nylon, polycarbonates,
polyamides

Think e-cig casing and polyfill.

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Maybe we are not there yet with this method.

 

[kinabaloo]

Possible solution :

Citric acid can be neutralized by calcium hydroxide; these react to precipitate insoluble tri-calcium citrate with water being the other product.

So with some pH strips to hand, add a solution of calcium hydroxide drop by drop until the solution is neutral. We need to calculate the approximate amount for a given strength of the Ca(OH)2.

 

[DVap]

Yea, go for it.

I wouldn't use the word "happy" in there.. just not the right "feel".

Also, since snus does have proven efficacy and a long safety record, something should be said about snus being generally a known safe WTA source, and might be tried to see if it does the trick... with this sort of procedure being more appropriate to those who just need the whole hand/mouth/vapor experience... and snus just didn't do it well enough.

So more a means of last resort to save oneself from going back to smoking.

 

[kinabaloo]

Yea, go for it.

I wouldn't use the word "happy" in there.. just not the right "feel".

Also, since snus does have proven efficacy and a long safety record, something should be said about snus being generally a known safe WTA source, and might be tried to see if it does the trick... with this sort of procedure being more appropriate to those who just need the whole hand/mouth/vapor experience... and snus just didn't do it well enough.

So more a means of last resort to save oneself from going back to smoking.

Exactly (last point). Will look at wording at add it pronto.

 

[DVap]

Possible solution :

Citric acid can be neutralized by calcium hydroxide, precipitating insoluble calcium citrate.

Ca(OH)2 is insoluble in itself, but I could possibly see enough low solubility interaction occurring to provide neutralization. Or CaCO3 instead? Perhaps akin to the reaction of limestone with acid.

One could simply make up a solution of citric acid in water, figure out the millimoles present, and figure out the equivalent amount of Ca(OH)2 or CaCO3.. then add an excess of solid Ca(OH)2 or CaCO3, shake it up, wait a bit, then filter or decant and check the pH of the clarified solution. Worth a look if someone wants to take it on.

 

[kinabaloo]

Ca(OH)2 is insoluble in itself, but I could possibly see enough low solubility interaction occurring to provide neutralization. Or CaCO3 instead? Perhaps akin to the reaction of limestone with acid.

One could simply make up a solution of citric acid in water, figure out the millimoles present, and figure out the equivalent amount of Ca(OH)2 or CaCO3.. then add an excess of solid Ca(OH)2 or CaCO3, shake it up, wait a bit, then filter or decant and check the pH of the clarified solution. Worth a look if someone wants to take it on.

Good point.

We'd have to crush to a fine powder a known amount (to be calculated) or just excess as you say, then shake up a few times.

Calcium carbonate is pure form of chalk; the main part of the white stuff that builds up in kettles.

This should work. Pity it's an extra step, but will be well worth the little extra effort.

sigh of relief ! 5 minutes of panic.

On the bright side, it gives a reason to do a extra filter (dampened coffe filter paper).

 

[slopes]

"One significant application of calcium hydroxide is as a flocculant, in water and sewage treatment. It forms a fluffy charged solid that aids in the removal of smaller particles from water, resulting in a clearer product. This application is enabled by the low cost and non-toxicity of calcium hydroxide. It is also used in fresh water treatment for raising the pH of the water so that the pipes won't corrode where the base water is acidic." Wikipedia.

Sounds like it might kill two birds with one stone.

 

[kinabaloo]

"One significant application of calcium hydroxide is as a flocculant, in water and sewage treatment. It forms a fluffy charged solid that aids in the removal of smaller particles from water, resulting in a clearer product. This application is enabled by the low cost and non-toxicity of calcium hydroxide. It is also used in fresh water treatment for raising the pH of the water so that the pipes won't corrode where the base water is acidic." Wikipedia.

Sounds like it might kill two birds with one stone.

Nice find

~~~

Updated the method with the excess acid precipitate out step.

The method : http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-more-effective-e-liquid-135.html#post2703356

 

[kinabaloo]

Ca(OH)2 is insoluble in itself, but I could possibly see enough low solubility interaction occurring to provide neutralization. Or CaCO3 instead? Perhaps akin to the reaction of limestone with acid.

One could simply make up a solution of citric acid in water, figure out the millimoles present, and figure out the equivalent amount of Ca(OH)2 or CaCO3.. then add an excess of solid Ca(OH)2 or CaCO3, shake it up, wait a bit, then filter or decant and check the pH of the clarified solution. Worth a look if someone wants to take it on.

Even if it might not dissolve at all (in a way a good thing) it will likely react at the surface interface. Could be ideal scenario for us because not only the product is insoluble, but the reactant too, so no chance of another excess.

Then filter and happy vaping

 

[DVap]

Nice find

~~~

Updated the method with the excess acid precipitate out step.

The method : http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-more-effective-e-liquid-135.html#post2703356

Might it be wiser to test first and update later?

 

[kinabaloo]

Might it be wiser to test first and update later?

After weighing it up, I felt this the best option. Even if it didn't work well, it will do no harm. Searched for some chalk sticks I have somewhere, but couldnt find them.

Calcium carbonate is very slightly soluble; that's why some ends up in the kettle over time.

With carbonate there's also be harmless CO2 produced I expect. Back to the carbon cycle of life.

 

[DVap]

After weighing it up, I felt this the best option. Even if it didn't work well, it will do no harm. Searched for some chalk sticks I have somewhere, but couldnt find them.

Calcium carbonate is very slightly soluble; that's why some ends up in the kettle over time.

With carbonate there's also be harmless CO2 produced I expect. Back to the carbon cycle of life.

fair 'nuff... it's you guy's baby.

I could nit-pick some of the procedure comments (the main one being the statement suggesting that tobacco matrix components are present in trace amounts, they're actually quite considerable percent-wise relative to the alkaloids, but probably a far cry better than a simple tobacco soak in PG or VG which is just filthy) but it's looking like it should basically spit out enough tobacco alkaloids to get a good snoot-full.

 

[kinabaloo]

fair 'nuff... it's you guy's baby.

I could nit-pick some of the procedure comments (the main one being the statement suggesting that tobacco matrix components are present in trace amounts, they're actually quite considerable percent-wise relative to the alkaloids, but probably a far cry better than a simple tobacco soak in PG or VG which is just filthy) but it's looking like it should basically spit out enough tobacco alkaloids to get a good snoot-full.

Really ? I thought the alkaloids were, among organic comounds, distinguished by their alkali property (basic nitrogens) and so should be more or less the only things to pass through the alkali-acid cycle ... No ?

In this respect, how would a more potent acid and volatile organic solvent possibly be any better ?

~~~

Done carefully, this 'kitchen' method might well get within a 10% margin of the lab method - both in terms of yield and purity.

Now there's a wager !

Within 10% difference in terms of purity and 15% in terms of yield and I'd call it a major success.

~~~

Nit-pick away ... this is the chance to get it best as can be.

Maybe we ultimately go for two versions - one detailed, nuanced and a bit technical, and the other a 1,2,3

What I'm updating presently is nearer to the 1,2,3

~~~

If something will add 5% to yield, no big deal. If it adds 5% to purity, it's worth looking at.

~~~

Changed 'traces' to 'small amount'

 

[kinabaloo]

Steve Loughran's photographs of deep space from back garden in Cambridge | Mail Online

 

[kardenm]

Ca(OH)2 is insoluble in itself, but I could possibly see enough low solubility interaction occurring to provide neutralization. Or CaCO3 instead? Perhaps akin to the reaction of limestone with acid.

One could simply make up a solution of citric acid in water, figure out the millimoles present, and figure out the equivalent amount of Ca(OH)2 or CaCO3.. then add an excess of solid Ca(OH)2 or CaCO3, shake it up, wait a bit, then filter or decant and check the pH of the clarified solution. Worth a look if someone wants to take it on.

Haven't really thought this through but, is there any possibility that neutralizing will cause any wta to become insoluble and therefore be lost?

 

[kardenm]

Steve Loughran's photographs of deep space from back garden in Cambridge | Mail Online

Amazing! Beautiful!! Thanks.

 

[kinabaloo]

Haven't really thought this through but, is there any possibility that neutralizing will cause any wta to become insoluble and therefore be lost?

AS the alkaloids are in salt form at this stage, there should be no loss. But only a test, as DVap says, will prove it so.

 

[kinabaloo]

Amazing! Beautiful!! Thanks.

Another similar story, ballon pics of earth this time ...

British aerospace enthusiast takes NASA-style photographs using a helium balloon and a pocket camera | Mail Online

And two more :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...edge-space-capture-stunning-images-Earth.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...taken-30-digital-camera-attached-balloon.html

The pics are n't so great but the tech / approach is interesting

 

[kardenm]

Another similar story, ballon pics of earth this time ...

British aerospace enthusiast takes NASA-style photographs using a helium balloon and a pocket camera | Mail Online

And two more :

Students tie £56 camera to balloon and send it to edge of space to capture stunning images of Earth | Mail Online

The incredible pictures from the edge of space - taken with a £30 digital camera attached to a balloon | Mail Online

Nice! Thanks again.