Big Tobacco and E-Cigs... A Winning Combination

[Chicken Menudo]

dns,

You wouldn't happen to have spent some time in the military?

 

[BillyWJ]

It's challenging to separate the issues. Especially in thread like this. Especially considering weight that Bill carries on these matters.

Where you say "FDS overreach" I'm thinking you meant FDA. And if yes, it is what I see BT doing, to best of their ability, given where they're at (in standing with US perception and politics). We are on a thread where ex-smokers have said that an agonizing slow death is too good for BT. That's the sentiment they are up against. Anything they put their finger on (anything at all) and attempt to make it better, however that is subjectively defined, is gonna be scrutinized as if now that BT is there, things just done got worse. I can't think of anything they (BT) can do to change their public perception so that all haters will suddenly accept them. Instead, I believe all haters are going to keep on hating, and judge all possible BT actions thru prism of, "that's just the sort of devious, greedy, selfish act that BT would do. Anyone that disagrees with this is naive."

I'd encourage BT to get into eCig market. You reading this BT? I encourage you. Perhaps, I could call up a major tobacco company or write them a letter to encourage them. I mean it's possible right. Then I, Jman, could say I encouraged them to do so. But methinks, everyone would treat that as Jman thinks he's a little more important than he actually is. So, if Bill actually did encourage them, I'm curious how that worked exactly, as I don't really doubt it, and do instead think Bill carries a weight with BT that amounts to sometime between 2007 and 2011, Bill's influence was partially what let decision makers in BT to actually get into the eCig market. IMO, that is very very very significant to what this thread is discussing.

The eliminating the competition thing is I believe par for human nature. Especially in business. Where the sport of competition is not as important as the desire to make profit and keep that train rolling as long as market forces will allow. I think there are vapers amongst us that would have very little issue if FDA came down with ruling/regulation that said cigalikes are essentially banned, but for now, the other devices are good to go (legal to sell). I expect certain people reading this to speak up and say they would be equally against this and yadda yadda yadda. But then a whole bunch of other vapers who just assume remain quiet and are glad the product they choose to use or manufacture / sell escaped the tentacles of FDA restrictions. And would seek to move forward either making or obtaining more of those devices, with glee, or greed, however you wish to view it. IOW, if FDA decimated BT (and cigalike vendors) but handed over market to other vendors (i.e. Provari), that suddenly a portion of ECF membership would be whistling a different tune, that comes off as joyous and great cause for celebration. I could be mistaken, I don't believe that I am.

The "luring the children" thing is near the very core of the larger debate. To think BT is on side of those who use this propaganda deception tool is interesting. I see them as squarely not, but also that in learning to adapt to market, it behooves them to give off that impression everywhere possible, as their participation in the market (absolutely) must be seen as intended for responsible adults only. And if they were interested in fighting this sort of propaganda, as Jman is very interested in doing just that, that BT would stand to lose a lot more than what Jman currently has. So, if you are eCig/tobacco company and wish to participate in the market in the long term, and understand exactly what TCA is all about, you do everything possible to ensure your marketed product is not for children and that you are on the side of those who wish to restrict sales to minors.

Just as CASAA holds to that position.
While almost every single smoker, ever, started on tobacco under the age of 18. Because they were lured in, and not by own choice. Can't have that message floating around.

I get what you're saying, but I have a hard time being anything but outraged at big tobacco, especially after watching things like the recent Vice.com short about BT's going into new markets around the world, because of lost sales in North America. It's on HBO, so I can't link to it.

Tobaccoland | VICE United States

I understand your wanting BT to go into ecigs, but I simply don't trust them to engineer eliquid to make it more addicting, and putting carcinogens in it. They DON'T CARE about your health. They just want to sell you a product. BT will play whatever side of the fence that benefits them, even if it means both sides, and they're not the only ones.

Big Tobacco is severely constrained in our markets as to how they can market their products, but if you leave our country, and go to places like Indonesia, they ARE marketing to kids, they are lying about the health effects of tobacco and burning it, and they would I would guarantee go back to their shady ways here if the laws were changed.

I would be careful about assigning altruistic characteristics to an industry like Big Tobacco.

 

[Chicken Menudo]

There are definitely dangers to BT's involvement with the e-big market. Will they attempt to engineer juices that have more addictive qualities? Probably. Will e-juice companies do they same (if they aren't looking into it already)? No doubt in my mind.As have been mention countless times before, no corporation/company is in the business for altruistic purposes and if given the opportunity, will attempt to corner their given market. Will they engage in deceptive, anti-competitive, and unethical activities? Yes... if they think they can get away with it. The only thing that sets BT from most of the other "Bigs" is that they were really good at it... and then they got caught. Rest assured that all the other "Bigs" have learned BT's mistakes and probably will never get caught.

 

[dead not sleeping]

dns,

You wouldn't happen to have spent some time in the military?

No, but if they are willing to give their lives for me, I am willing to do the same for them. I consider myself an unaffiliated Free Patriot. I may be dead, but I'm not sleeping. Concord Green will be where the enemy will find it.

dns

Edit: However, if I go out to the chicken coop and see your avatar, I'm running away, screaming like a little girl.

 

[ScottP]

There are definitely dangers to BT's involvement with the e-big market. Will they attempt to engineer juices that have more addictive qualities? Probably. Will e-juice companies do they same (if they aren't looking into it already)? No doubt in my mind.As have been mention countless times before, no corporation/company is in the business for altruistic purposes and if given the opportunity, will attempt to corner their given market. Will they engage in deceptive, anti-competitive, and unethical activities? Yes... if they think they can get away with it. The only thing that sets BT from most of the other "Bigs" is that they were really good at it... and then they got caught. Rest assured that all the other "Bigs" have learned BT's mistakes and probably will never get caught.

I see Big-T getting involved, then helping to shape US regulations so that only pre-manufactured cig-a-likes are legal and then only if manufactured to certain standards that only Big-T can comply with. Effectively killing every normal ecig vendors business. It will be after this occurs that they will begin doctoring their own products to be more addictive and more harmful. They will also very likely push for flavor limitations to tobacco and menthol flavors....just like their cash cow products are.

The net result will be that Big-T will once again be the only source for your inhaled nicotine needs, the only flavor choices will be the craptastic flavors Big-T is making now, and the quality/safety will deteriorate to the point that most people will just return to smoking, thus preserving the Big-T's real money maker...the analog cigarette.

 

[grayscale]

I almost swallowed my tongue when I read this thread title. Lack of education on a subject can be very dangerous.

 

[BillyWJ]

I see Big-T getting involved, then helping to shape US regulations so that only pre-manufactured cig-a-likes are legal and then only if manufactured to certain standards that only Big-T can comply with. Effectively killing every normal ecig vendors business. It will be after this occurs that they will begin doctoring their own products to be more addictive and more harmful. They will also very likely push for flavor limitations to tobacco and menthol flavors....just like their cash cow products are.

The net result will be that Big-T will once again be the only source for your inhaled nicotine needs, the only flavor choices will be the craptastic flavors Big-T is making now, and the quality/safety will deteriorate to the point that most people will just return to smoking, thus preserving the Big-T's real money maker...the analog cigarette.

I have a question, where does most of the liquid nicotine come from? Is BT producing it, or is it coming from overseas? That's where BT has a massive stake in the business, and where they can profit the most, if they lobbied Washington to put tariffs or bans on Chinese or offshore sources and be the only source for US flavor vendors. I know China grows a lot of tobacco, so I know a lot of it is probably coming in from there.

Granted, the angle they (Big Tobacco, Big Pharma, Big Government) seem to be taking is being the ruling authority on "approved" delivery systems, so you may be right.

 

[grayscale]

I have a question, where does most of the liquid nicotine come from? Is BT producing it, or is it coming from overseas? That's where BT has a massive stake in the business, and where they can profit the most, if they lobbied Washington to put tariffs or bans on Chinese or offshore sources and be the only source for US flavor vendors. I know China grows a lot of tobacco, so I know a lot of it is probably coming in from there.

Granted, the angle they (Big Tobacco, Big Pharma, Big Government) seem to be taking is being the ruling authority on "approved" delivery systems, so you may be right.

All of the "extracted nicotine" available right now comes from overseas. There is no authorized US extractor currently. However, there is supposedly a company based in the Carolinas that is close to being approved and will be the first US source. Unfortunately there are many efluid vendors out there that will tell you there nicotine comes from the US but they are either lying or have been lied to by their supplier.

 

[krukentip]

I think the ecig and ejuice community should be careful what it wishes for. Regulation and proper labeling is a good thing, but you can find out what is in your ejuice just by doing a bit of research. I honestly hope that regulation of ecigs and ejuice is never regulated by the individual states. Reason being, I currently live in Utah, which has already passed a law called the "Clean Air Act", which makes it illegal to vape in public places, i.e. parks, bus stops, malls, restaurants, etc. I'm afraid that if Utah got their grubby little hands in the mix at all, we in Utah wouldn't even be able to get pictures of an ecig. LOL. Regulation is a good thing when in the proper context. Otherwise, I prefer to be able to do what works for me without the BT industry, BB Government, or anyone else looking over my shoulder. Just MHO.

 

[ScottP]

I have a question, where does most of the liquid nicotine come from? Is BT producing it, or is it coming from overseas? That's where BT has a massive stake in the business, and where they can profit the most, if they lobbied Washington to put tariffs or bans on Chinese or offshore sources and be the only source for US flavor vendors. I know China grows a lot of tobacco, so I know a lot of it is probably coming in from there.

Granted, the angle they (Big Tobacco, Big Pharma, Big Government) seem to be taking is being the ruling authority on "approved" delivery systems, so you may be right.

As grayscale said, currently all liquid nicotine is coming from overseas. Big-T is still in the fledgling phases of getting themselves setup to be fully independent. Mark my words, once Big-T has gotten their manufacturing fully squared away, they will start pushing hard to get the regulations to fit what they have setup and not allow anything else.

 

[Ken_A]

I see Big-T getting involved, then helping to shape US regulations so that only pre-manufactured cig-a-likes are legal and then only if manufactured to certain standards that only Big-T can comply with. Effectively killing every normal ecig vendors business. It will be after this occurs that they will begin doctoring their own products to be more addictive and more harmful. They will also very likely push for flavor limitations to tobacco and menthol flavors....just like their cash cow products are.

The net result will be that Big-T will once again be the only source for your inhaled nicotine needs, the only flavor choices will be the craptastic flavors Big-T is making now, and the quality/safety will deteriorate to the point that most people will just return to smoking, thus preserving the Big-T's real money maker...the analog cigarette.

Check out the last vplive vp vape team.
NJoy is petitioning Health Canada to regulate ecigs as medical devices. Non refillable, disposable and stringently regulated so that only well established companies can provide them.
In other words: don't look for it in the future. It's happening RIGHT NOW!!

 

[ScottP]

Check out the last vplive vp vape team.
NJoy is petitioning Health Canada to regulate ecigs as medical devices. Non refillable, disposable and stringently regulated so that only well established companies can provide them.
In other words: don't look for it in the future. It's happening RIGHT NOW!!

Sometimes it sucks being right all the time.

Luckily here in the US it's going to be a tougher fight, since the Supreme Court already shot down the idea of regulating them as medical devices. So Big-T is going to have to get their extraction plants all setup and then decide how to get regulations that make it so they are the only ones that are qualified to make the nic juice. Once they do, they of course will not sell the juice to anyone except in their own disposable POS devices.

Our only hope is that Big-T can't find a way to get this done though the FDA, leaving them to have to get our do-nothing deadlocked Congress to pass a law. In the current climate it is extremely difficult to get anything through Congress so we could be safe for the short term.

 

[Chicken Menudo]

I almost swallowed my tongue when I read this thread title. Lack of education on a subject can be very dangerous.

Yeah, it's called "Intro to Journalism." Hopefully, you've learned a thing or two since you've been on this thread (probably not, reference "Intro to Psychology").

 

[BillyWJ]

Check out the last vplive vp vape team.
NJoy is petitioning Health Canada to regulate ecigs as medical devices. Non refillable, disposable and stringently regulated so that only well established companies can provide them.
In other words: don't look for it in the future. It's happening RIGHT NOW!!

Well, take Njoy off the list of companies I'll buy from.

 

[Chicken Menudo]

Aren't e-cigs banned in Canada? If so, couldn't that mean that NJOY is just trying to find a way into the market? It could also mean that NJOY has built a business model poised to take advantage of the most restrictive markets.

 

[BillyWJ]

Aren't e-cigs banned in Canada? If so, couldn't that mean that NJOY is just trying to find a way into the market? It could also mean that NJOY has built a business model poised to take advantage of the most restrictive markets.

I believe that's exactly what they're doing. But, that's the kind of thing other government agencies can use to justify OTHER regulations, in other countries.

We as a community do not want ecigs labeled a medical device anywhere.

 

[DC2]

Aren't e-cigs banned in Canada? If so, couldn't that mean that NJOY is just trying to find a way into the market? It could also mean that NJOY has built a business model poised to take advantage of the most restrictive markets.

Electronic cigarettes with nicotine are supposedly banned in Canada.
Not ones without nicotine.

And I say supposedly, because if you ask most of the people who understand Canadian laws...
They will tell you that the idea that they are banned is a lie, and does not hold up when vendors stand firm against Health Canada.

 

[Bunnykiller]

the way I see it... BT gets involved/takes over, it becomes an FDA thing, It becomes a highly taxable item, it becomes regulated, it becomes what real tobacco is today.... I like my 40$/100ml price for juice I can afford that. Imagine how much tax would be imposed on a 100ml bottle. Someone is going to figure out that the tax on a pack of ciggies is a certian amount and relate that to the amount of nic in a bottle and tax accordingly.. 100ml taxed to be 150$ a bottle??

 

[kathi17]

Well, take Njoy off the list of companies I'll buy from.

I went to their site after reading that. Gosh, who'd want to buy their crummy products anyway???

 

[Jman8]

We as a community do not want ecigs labeled a medical device anywhere.

We as a community seem a little bit confused about what we as a community do want eCigs labeled as.

Not medical devices.
Not tobacco products.

Instead they are.....?

And then realize whatever they actually are, that a company with lots of resources and motivation, may wish to get into market or business that distributes them, in order to collect their share of the billion plus dollars that will be earned from mass distribution.

All while ANTZ, BP and government seek to restrict, decimate and, at very least, control distribution all in the name of the children. Oh and getting their cut of the billion dollars that will be 'earned' in the mean time.

• ANTZ already has its monopoly stake in the matter. Fairly well established, I must add. See existence of TCA if there are any questions on this.
• BP already has its monopoly stake in the matter. Perhaps that which is in bed with ANTZ and/or fueling their thirst for control.
• Government has its monopoly in the matter. It needs no stake, other than to exercise full authority to collect its share of the revenue, via taxation. I mean, you didn't think this perfectly legal product was going to be able to forego taxation, did you? No seriously, did you?

But let's keep harping on BT as the entity in the game that seeks control, wants a monopoly and is clearly in bed with government, BP and ANTZ, by choice. I say we consumers get together, force BT out of the game, and then let's fend for ourselves against BP, ANTZ and government. I'm sure with BT gone, they'll become reasonable on our desire to vape nicotine forever and ever, without any desire to tax, or to control the debate around what is safe, and what is a matter of exercising personal freedom.