Big Tobacco and E-Cigs... A Winning Combination

[Jolly Roger]

I don't know how I feel about Big tobacco commingling with e-cigs. At this point, nothing Big tobacco can do will appeal to people on vape communities - I can't imagine that Big tobacco will be able to provide mods or juices that exceed the quality of what Vapor Chef, etc can provide. I think their presence in the market just saturates the market with lower quality goods.

 

[Baldr]

Also, I think the industry is in need of some sort of regulation (VERY limited regulation).

Big Tobacco is going to love you and others like you, who want more regulation. But they aren't going to stop at "very limited regulation".

Once they get what they want, they'll have it regulated to the point where people can't DIY for their own juice, people can't get flavors they love because the little companies making the flavor got "regulated" out of business. The only people in the e-cig market will be the big tobacco-company-sized giants, and the governement will tax the heck out of it just like cigarettes.

I'm not surprised that some people think this is a good thing, but I absolutely hate it.

As best I can tell, the only thing any of the cig companies are pushing are cig-alike type systems, mostly disposables. That will hardly do as a replacement for what I'm using once they regulate the small guys out of business.

 

[Baldr]

the more people who try cig-alikes and dislike them are one google search away from finding us.

I think they are more likely to say "Hey, I tried one of those e-cig things, it sucked". I know I tried a hit off of a friends cig-alike a year or two before I started vaping, and I thought "Well, that sucks". Only after another friend started vaping and having success and suggesting I try it did I start googling and find the ECF forum.

I don't think that using a cig-alike and finding that it doesn't work is going to make most people think "Hey, that didn't work worth a darn, so obviously I need to put more time and effort into learning about them". It just makes them think "those suck", then they move on.

 

[Stosh]

No idea. Typically e-liquids are considered to have a shelf life of 1 year. Some people have been stocking up and storing concentrated nicotine liquid in their freezers since before last April when the FDA was supposed to regulate e-cigarettes.

Of course, this is only a temporary solution. Eventually those supplies are going to run out.

Stockpiling has been going on since 2010 or before (not sure, I only started in 2010) from before the FDA lost their first banning ploy in court.

Federal regulations would be a joke at best, even if they allow liter bottles of e-liquid, at any vaping strength you like to puff. Just look at the list of current additives that are ALLOWED for BT to add to cigarettes. This is the for a very highly regulated product, the list is nearly endless.

Also remember the FDA is the FOOD and Drug Administration. Look at the ingredients on many prepared foods, the list of additives are endless, all with federal regulation. What is allowed to be added under natural color and flavor would curl your hair. Read up on what is currently allowed and regulated, guarantee you will lose 5-10 lbs....

For the drug side of the FDA, you have to look no farther that Chantix...... an approved, regulated drug.

BT being involved or not involved isn't so much the problem as the lack of common sense, scientific honesty, and the belief that "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help" isn't very scary.

 

[Ed_C]

I've never understood this willful naivete and blindness to history regarding regulation that libertarians and "constitutionalists" have. Sure, let the free market reign and everything will be alright. Do exploding Pintos mean anything to you? How about the Triangle Shirt Factory fire? In 1909, before any meaningful mine safety regulation was enacted, there were 3,242 deaths in mining accidents. Corporate history is fraught with examples of the criminal behavior of business when allowed to operate with no controls. Do you really believe that BT would not advertise to kids if allowed free reign? Go watch "The Insider." It's a really good movie and it's absolutely realistic in terms of what these corporations will do to remain profitable. There is no minimal or local control that will stop that kind of behavior. That's akin to putting unarmed mall cops out in the worst neighborhoods.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd like to see regulation to keep BT out of any tobacco alternative and let them die the slow agonizing death they have sentenced so many to over the years.

Amen to that! Regulation in itself is not bad if it's done properly. I, for one, don't want to send everything that I ingest out for chemical analysis because there's no regulation. In the case of BT there should be much more regulation. They shouldn't be able to add additional ingredients that make cigarettes more harmful and addictive. While it's true that much regulation is poor, in many cases that's because big business has big government in their back pocket. The answer isn't to drop all regulation and have consumers be responsible to test all the products that they use. That would never work in the world we live in and was only practical before the industrial revolution.

 

[Chicken Menudo]

There are a lot of passionate views on this one and I definitely understand the concern regarding the "Walmart Effect." I do find it ironic how some are extremely opposed to regulation and some for. Baldr, I think you've already lost the war against zero regulation (e-cigs have already been banned for sell to minors in some states) unless, of course you are for banning e-cigs to minors in which case you have entered the "very little regulation world."



Some have commented that Big Tobacco only brings to market 6 year-old technology (i.e. mini e-cigs). Well, I think it should be pretty obvious that they are not going for the "vapor crowd." Their choice of going the mini route actually makes the best market sense. I'm going to assume that they are working a "cradle to the grave" approach (similar to Apple) by getting current smokers into their court. Once they have developed a solid e-cig customer base, then I could see them branching into the mid-size market. It'll really depend on the margins, where they bring mini e-cig technology, etc. Can't criticize them for that any more than I can criticize Apple for their closed system.

Last, but not least... ALL corporations work the bottom line. Do you really think Google "Does no evil?" When you buy that Prius, do you actually think Honda cares about the environment? No, they just want you money.

 

[zelda]

I've been vaping for almost 4 and 1/2 years just fine without the need for regulations or taxes.

Any regulations on ecigarettes -especially eliquid - is going to be focused on saving the children. I strongly suspect this means limiting the flavors and nicotine strength of eliquid - probably to only tobacco and menthol flavors at a low nicotine level. This would probably put most eliquid vendors out of business,

Online sales may be severely limited or prohibited as well. If allowed these sales would be taxed just like tobacco products are now that are sold online. I can just imagine what the requirements will be like for an ecigarette business to get a license from the state/federal government.

 

[Ed_C]

When you buy that Prius, do you actually think Honda cares about the environment? No, they just want you money.

No, I think when you buy a Prius, Honda would most likely think you should have bought a Accord Hybrid instead of a Toyota. All kidding aside, while I would agree that Honda is in the business of selling cars, I have no idea if anyone at Honda cares about the environment or not and neither do you. Not everyone that works at all corporations are evil to the bone, just most.

 

[Jman8]

Pay VERY careful attention to what Batitude and molimelight have to say about BT. I like this, "Make no mistake, job one at BT is addiction." It doesn't matter to them how many carcinogenic compounds they have to use to achieve it.

I have been paying very careful attention to the BT naysayers and continually looking for / asking for links, but alas they can't be produced. Or if they are, the links are akin to why gun rights advocate feels justified in stockpiling noting the economy will be collapsing any day now. Here, read this link. This link helps you understand everything you need to know.

That's what will be in their "safe for the kids," sealed, non-refillable, pre-filled cartomizers that are electronically keyed to only work with their own brand of battery (digital VUSE) and vice versa. They're not only out to eliminate competition from "poisonous" bottled nicotine and associated delivery devices, they're also out to lock you into their high-profit cigalike batteries and eliminate "mods." Don't plan on using your ProVari, much less your carto tanks, with their encrypted key cartomizers/cartridges.

They have the most extensive logistics/distribution chain in the world already in place and are out to eliminate mail-order/internet sales of e-cigarettes, allegedly to keep them out of the hands of children, but in reality to maintain top to bottom control.

There may be some small benefits to BT being involved in e-cigarettes, but the end result is a bad one for vapers.

IMO, the reality is BT will be involved. This is already visible. Get BT entirely out by some magic wand and what will (undoubtedly) fill that void is ANTZ, as a very very well funded organization of concerned citizens and 'scientists.' This is already visible. Perhaps vaping consumers will be all on board and somehow (magically) get BT out of the picture, but to think ANTZ won't fill the vacuum is as naive as assuming BT is only in this fight to make things all better for everyone.

Furthermore, take a company like V2, or the other top of the heap eCig companies. Do all vapers love them? Not in my observation. So whatever is middle of the road, budding eCig company today does look all wonderful and good. But give them unlimited wealth and influence, and let's see how they fare when suddenly on top tier. I honestly can't think of any company in any field, ever, that was beyond all scrutiny from the public, much less it's own consumers. World don't work like that.

BT will try to monopolize or gain profits, but IMO they won't succeed in obtaining actual monopoly. Simply not possible in today's world. But BT can and already is serving to get the message out, about what eCigs really are. Current public perception is it looks like smoking, therefore it is. With BT in the mix, it can make that distinction more challenging, but there are more players in the field, and I think always will be, besides BT, V2 and those on top.

Yet, we have reached the inevitable turning point of any industry. Either the world powers that be, find way to make it work, or the industry is decimated and goes back to eCigs of 2007 and before. My money is on, it will find way to work, and with a little luck innovation of the quality kind will exist for the foreseeable future.

 

[molimelight]

Last, but not least... ALL corporations work the bottom line. Do you really think Google "Does no evil?" When you buy that Prius, do you actually think Honda cares about the environment? No, they just want you money.

There's a HUGE difference between the Googles of the world and BT. If you can't see that, then you're functionally blind!

http://www.google.cn/intl/en/about/company/responsibility/

There's a big difference between responsible profit and a venal pursuit of more and more wealth and the consumer be damned. While Honda may not be perfect, how many class action law suits have been filed over safety related defects in their cars and motorcycles? Now look at the Detroit big three. The very nature and growth of BT is based on the profitability of dealing addiction and death to the world. Now you're expecting them to be upright citizens? The seller of any other product that was sold and caused as many deaths as cigarettes would be spending life in prison.

Like I said before, a slow agonizing death would be too good for Big Tobacco, and I sure as heck don't want them anywhere near E-Cigs. They have far too much blood on their hands.

 

[Jman8]

I don't think that using a cig-alike and finding that it doesn't work is going to make most people think "Hey, that didn't work worth a darn, so obviously I need to put more time and effort into learning about them". It just makes them think "those suck", then they move on.

I use cigalike to this day, and find they work well. I started with disposable cigalike, and thought it worked okay. I realized within a month that there were better products around. Again, I'm still on cigalike and fully realize there are superior products around. Yet, my cigalikes work very well.

BT has been in the game for very short period of time. Common sense would suggest that given time and enormous resources, their products will improve. And yet, more common sense suggests there will always be products around that BT doesn't care to produce and that fits a market segment that prefers to do things differently (if not better).

The "that sucks" crowd that will move on could try best / most expensive eCig device currently available and come to the subjective conclusion of "this sucks." And the rational conclusion that this is isn't worth the money, given alternatives available.

 

[Jman8]

Like I said before, a slow agonizing death would be too good for Big Tobacco, and I sure as heck don't want them anywhere near E-Cigs. They have far too much blood on their hands.

While those 'innocent' users of Big Tobacco have zero blood on their hands?

 

[Ed_C]

If it was simply that BT was selling a product that was dangerous to consenting, adult, consumers, that might be forgivable. But the fact that they sell a product that is chemically engineered to maximize addiction and harm, well that crosses a line for me. I rather not put more money in their pockets.

 

[zelda]

If people want to buy from BT that's fine. But some of us would like the option to use the devices and eliquid we want to.

And the minute the government starts regulating that option may well be gone.

I would like to mention I really don't understand why anyone would want regulations and taxes.

If you're leary of what's in your eliquid you can diy your own eliquid and pretty much know what goes into it.

If it's hardware that concerns you you can stick with Joye batteries or the big name cigalikes.

The vaping industry has done a fine job of policing itself in the sales to minors already.

And BT's association with ecigarettes is not going to change the public perception of vaping as not smoking imo.

 

[Jman8]

If it was simply that BT was selling a product that was dangerous to consenting, adult, consumers, that might be forgivable. But the fact that they sell a product that is chemically engineered to maximize addiction and harm, well that crosses a line for me. I rather not put more money in their pockets.

I find both forgivable. Considering how forgiveness actually works. And how the world (of business) works.

 

[NiNi]

Why in the world would we want Big Tobacco to profit or get control of another product? Does BT really care about it's consumers? No, they only care about their bottom line, MONEY. Do they have any track record of being honest or trustworthy? Pffftttt.......RJ Reynolds handing out free cigarettes to children ring a bell? "Joe Camel"? How about the truth about the ingredients in their tobacco products? Quite possibly they're burning both ends of the candle, pushing for a ban to keep their cigarette profits and entering the e-cig market to cover their rears.

For all we know, they're in bed with Big Pharma, people smoke, they want to quit, get Chantix, gum, or the patch, rarely works and jump back on the cig wagon. A viscious cycle which is a "win, win" situation for both parties.

I wouldn't trust BT for any of my vaping products. I'm surprised they haven't got their hands on another smoke-able organic that is becoming legalized. But as that is a State by State decision, I don't see why individual States would want the likes of the major "Death Dealers" (BT) making a dime off of it.

*If "Smoking = Death", why aren't the powers that be banning cigarettes completely? The product the government heavily taxes because of its huge effects on medical care, addiction in minors, etc, etc? And why would the Government allow BT to acquire a hold in yet another consumer product when BT's track record SUCKS?*

BT doesn't do any favors for anyone unless there's a payoff. I, for one, am very ticked off that BT wants to gain control of my wallet and health again.

 

[Ed_C]

I would like to mention I really don't understand why anyone would want regulations and taxes.

So you don't want any sort of protection for consumers and workers, roads, fire and police departments, aid for people who were devastated by natural disasters, etc? You would prefer a return to the wild west? You know it wasn't really like you see in a John Wayne movie.

 

[Jman8]

If people want to buy from BT that's fine. But some of us would like the option to use the devices and eliquid we want to.

And the minute the government starts regulating that option may well be gone.

I honestly do not see that option ever being eradicated. One can look to other items that government forbids and see that options are available. Strictly controlled (or allegedly strictly controlled) markets still have options if options are truly the bottom line for you as a consumer.

And BT's association with ecigarettes is not going to change the public perception of vaping as not smoking imo.I would like to mention I really don't understand why anyone would want regulations and taxes.

I believe BT's association with eCigarettes will change, as eCigs are a game changer. To me, it is like saying you, who are (or were) smoker will not change. Even some of us experienced this when being honest about our own self, that we will not change. We were in this for life. Then eCigs came along and turned that perception upside down. Redeemed us in a very real way.

Yeah, I can very much understand hating on BT perhaps for rest of one's life, but if being honest, that hatred is on you. That caution to trust again is on you. BT is in the market of selling eCigs now and unless ANTZ succeeds in decimating the industry, BT will be in the new market indefinitely. Whether you choose to buy a BT produced eCig device or liquid, is entirely up to you.

But just to be clear, to think your current eCig manufacturer is beyond all public scrutiny sounds naive. Perhaps not here on a vaping forum where we can all more or less agree on what is top companies / best quality, but in general public, I think the scrutiny is taken to a level where objectivity is more viable.

 

[mobocracy]

I think there's probably some advantages to be gained by gained by big tobacco entering the e-cig market. They certainly have a lot of research data and definitely have the science and engineering ability to design a product that works well and consistently. I'm sure those that are actually working on it are well-aware of the challenges around batteries, juices, and basic vaping technologies like cartomizers, atomizers, etc.

I think there's a lot of room for improvement in the basic vaping technology that could happen if you applied some real high-end chemical engineering and mechanical engineering to the problems. It strikes me that the existing systems aren't really all that innovative and mainly seem to be variations on the same theme, cartomizers and tank-based atomizers.

I think a certain amount of purity requirements and transparency in terms of listing ingredients are worthwhile, as are knowing that the ingredients are made to standards applicable to products made for internal consumption. I don't think anybody wants anything made with sloppy ingredients, processes in a dirty facility.

Of course there are risks, since big tobacco may see anyone selling e-cigs who's not big tobacco as a threat to be eliminated via their connections to government and the kind of unholy alliance they have with antismoking forces who see tobacco as a source of money.

I think they have to be careful, though, because that kind of thing could backfire on them -- there may be people sympathetic to e-cigs who wouldn't be if they were simply seen as another addictive product from big tobacco. I think this will force Big Tobacco to enter e-cig markers with different branding and positioning that makes them seem "different" than cigarettes which will make it more difficult for them to argue for restrictions that only can hurt their competitors.

 

[MTFogger]

Yea the last thing I want is to have to walk in a convenient store and buy a bottle of Camel Menthols with all the addictive properties that have been added to regular tobacco for the sake of making better prophet. If FDA was smart they would categorize E-Cigs as a new product and regulate it for quality, not what flavor it is or the fact it contains nicotine. I wonder if we would be having all these problems if caffeine was in it instead of nicotine. or when they first came out they called them E-Foggers instead of E-Cigs. Make no mistake you do not want BT in total control E-Cigs or FDA to categorize them as tobacco but as few others here have said that will be the most likely results IMO.

I'm for:
No sales under 18.
FDA regulation of e-juice products as far as quality goes.
Safe and better devices.
No bans on alternative non combustion products.
Promotional research spending on E-cigs and liquids for better products.
Future reduction and elimination of combustion cigarettes.
More spending on better E-cigs and devices. (Companies) V2 is fixing to release a non wick 500 puff cartridge.
No special taxes on E-Cigs and devices etc.
Better or alternative ID checking for internet sales.

Oh and not hand over the industries to BT and Pharm or greedy politicians.