Bill 45

[warrior3995]

Bill 45 broken down to explain what this really means for vendors and users. This is pretty scary, folks. Please take the time to read this and then go in to one of the small vape shops and sign the petition, if you haven't already. Enough is enough with this Bill and trying to hurt our community.


Meatheads Madness: Bill 45 - Schedule 3; The Dipi Solution
meatheads-madness.blogspot.com

Should make this disclaimer; The vendors mentioned in the Definitions section, to my knowledge are working very hard to get Bill 45 sorted, I needed an example and at least with the first two, I do a lot of business...

 

[Maiar]

Handy link to the petition and other related material.

Fight Bill 45

 

[BigBoyBlue]

This bill is a real atrocity. Can you believe that they are pushing this bill as a measure to protect the citizens of Ontario? So, let's protect people by keeping them on analogues. We have seen some half wit studies that have shown e-cigarettes may be worse than normal tobacco so lets regulate them to the point that no one uses them. So you are going to die from smoking analogues? Ohh well, we get a lot of taxes from them.

Someone needs to put together a rally at parliament. We need to make a huge fuss about this bill. Someone needs to call all news stations, papers and confront these politicians. Let's see if they actually know the studies. These devices are far safer than cigarettes and need to be encouraged.

I've always had a distaste for the government but this is really striking a chord with me. These people are greedy imbeciles that only care about their revenue. They are uniformed, yet control the industry? If they truly are doing this for our benefit it goes to further the point that they are unintelligent. Anyone who spends 2 hours researching e-cigarettes quickly learns they are far safer than analogues. So our politicians are either really greedy, or too busy shaking hands to get informed. . . or both.

 

[vincom]

common sense would say atomizing a liquid is far safer than burning tobacco.
smoke/fog machines work on same principle as personnel vapors aka ecigs and afaik there are no warnings on those machines and are perfectly legal to sell to any1.
temperature of liquid on coil does in no way get close to temps as when burning analogues(as long as wick is wet).
as far as protecting consumers everything has a safety concern doesnt mean everyting can be legislated.
this is all about big brother and money

 

[robvanhooren]

This bill is a real atrocity. [...] Someone needs to put together a rally at parliament. We need to make a huge fuss about this bill

if a rolling army of nearly two thousand tow truck drivers from all over the province can gather together in one day and blockade the 400, 401, 427, QEW, and Gardiner main arteries to a complete standstill for hours on their way to protest at Queens Park in order to protest Bill 15 earlier this week?

(coincidentally without a single cop in sight to do anything about it whatsoever)

then the province's vapers can surely rally to do something equally as noticeable in protest of Bill 45.

someone recently said it without mincing too many words: if we lose Ontario to such a ridiculous precedent, we'll basically have lost the whole country.

Bill 45 is *not* the time to stick your head in the sand and just hope it'll all just go away.

 

[Zurd]

Any news on what's going on with this bill recently?

 

[railz68]

Signed, disappointed there aren't more sigs on there. However, at 46 years of age, i have learned the Government just does what it wants to do. They just Do it, and it's done. Even if it means downright lying.

Jean Chretien: "elect me, and i'll get rid of the GST".

Elected.

Public: "When can we expect you to get rid of the GST"

Jean Chretien: "oh i can't do that"

 

[vincom]

Signed, disappointed there aren't more sigs on there. However, at 46 years of age, i have learned the Government just does what it wants to do. They just Do it, and it's done. Even if it means downright lying.

Jean Chretien: "elect me, and i'll get rid of the GST".

Elected.

Public: "When can we expect you to get rid of the GST"

Jean Chretien: "oh i can't do that"

he threw out his "red book" when he got elected

back to topic:
tobacco use is decreasing.
vaping use is increasing.
govt stance - no proof that vaping is a smoking cessation product.
govt responce - make vaping equipment harder to get and/or use.

 

[railz68]

he threw out his "red book" when he got elected

back to topic:
tobacco use is decreasing.
vaping use is increasing.
govt stance - no proof that vaping is a smoking cessation product.


govt responce - make vaping equipment harder to get and/or use.

my point is, the money, just follow the money. It's not about right and wrong.

tobacco use is decreasing: less tax money coming in
vaping use is increasing: lets find a means to tax it
govt stance: vaping is generating lots of doh that we are not taxing like we do cigs
govt response: fear mongering, get general population on board that is just like cigarettes, and tax it as such.

I seek no argument over this, but the fact is, the Government is a legalized Mafia.

The Patch is fine, they get there cut. The gum is fine, they get there cut. They are not getting there cut on the e-cig business (currently). And they will get there way, sooner or later. They will pass bills as they see fit. Just follow the money. It has nothing to do with health.

When the day comes that they are getting a piece of the action (tax), you'll see all the positive benefits of e-cigs in the news and media.

All the rebuttals to the things you've heard in the media here on the forums, ever see them mentioned in the same media ?. No, never. It is a one sided view in media. We, us, that read into the truth know better. But non-smokers don't really care one way or the other, and can be swayed very easily. I was a 34 year smoker, and I've had friends change from "good for you giving it up", to "you know those e-cigs are even worse for you".

For my small group of friends, i have shown them the rebuttal time and time again. And for the most part, they see it. But this education only impacts the few that care enough to read it. Again, non smokers / non vapors do not care one way or the other. It does not affect them if they tax/ban e-cigs.

So, show me a petition. I'll sign it. E-Cigs have saved my life i believe, but it's not going to stop the greed of money. The government is not going to stop the attack until they are getting there cut.

 

[Projectguy]

Reading through the thread I'd like to make some observations:

1. Consider that Ontario tax revenue from tobacco sales was $1.142 billion in 2012–2013 and compare this to Ontario’s direct health costs due to tobacco related illnesses of $1.6 billion plus the $4.4 billion in lost productivity for a total cost to the Ontario economy of $6.0 billion annually. So in fact taxes from smoking are not the cash cow they are perceived to be. ‪‬

So if by enacting world leading vaping legislation you could cut those numbers in half for a loss of $570.4 million in revenue the province could realize a savings of $3 billion in health costs and productivity gains.

2. Bill 45 with a couple of easy modifications could in fact solve a number of problems.

Clause 3: Display, etc. The sections in this clause create a “don’t ask; don’t tell” environment around the sale and use of E-cigs. This clause requires specialty small business owners whose only products are vaping gear and e-liquid and where age restrictions apply, not show to their wares for sale to those who would be and are legally allowed to purchase vape gear and e-liquid. I would suggest that the sale of E-cigs and e-liquid be restricted to single purpose “Vape shops” and that within those “Vape shops” the restrictions in this clause form part of the exemptions.

Clause 10: Prohibition. On where one can vape. In its entirety the provisions of this clause creates a “speak easy” form of use. I have to assume that the reasoning behind this clause is that the authors of the proposed legislation used, to the exclusion of all else, the “science of convenience” that meets a political objective. While this “science of convenience” creates sensational headlines and warns of death and mayhem from vaping it tries to bury the truth. I would be preaching to the choir if I discussed the fact that vapour is benign. I would suggest that the decision of where one can vape be left to property owners, tenants or employers.

3. Things Bill 45 doesn't cover but should because we have to give to get:

a. Certification of employees of Vape Shops: As a vaper of almost 3 years and thanks to the vaping community and committed vape shop owners I have vaped safely and completely kicked my tobacco addiction. Persons behind the counter should be certified in the areas of E-cigs and e-liquid use and safety and battery safety.
b. E-liquid testing: E-liquids for sale in Ontario (or anywhere for that matter) should meet the quality control standards as laid out by the Electronic Cigarette Trade Association.
c. Labeling: Bottles of e-liquid which leave the shop should be devoid of all promotional labeling and be restricted to Federal labeling requirements with only the e-liquid name, nicotine strength, batch number and best before date.

That's my take on the issue

 

[Kagey K]

Reading through the thread I'd like to make some observations:

1. Consider that Ontario tax revenue from tobacco sales was $1.142 billion in 2012–2013 and compare this to Ontario’s direct health costs due to tobacco related illnesses of $1.6 billion plus the $4.4 billion in lost productivity for a total cost to the Ontario economy of $6.0 billion annually. So in fact taxes from smoking are not the cash cow they are perceived to be. ‪‬

So if by enacting world leading vaping legislation you could cut those numbers in half for a loss of $570.4 million in revenue the province could realize a savings of $3 billion in health costs and productivity gains.

2. Bill 45 with a couple of easy modifications could in fact solve a number of problems.

Clause 3: Display, etc. The sections in this clause create a “don’t ask; don’t tell” environment around the sale and use of E-cigs. This clause requires specialty small business owners whose only products are vaping gear and e-liquid and where age restrictions apply, not show to their wares for sale to those who would be and are legally allowed to purchase vape gear and e-liquid. I would suggest that the sale of E-cigs and e-liquid be restricted to single purpose “Vape shops” and that within those “Vape shops” the restrictions in this clause form part of the exemptions.

Clause 10: Prohibition. On where one can vape. In its entirety the provisions of this clause creates a “speak easy” form of use. I have to assume that the reasoning behind this clause is that the authors of the proposed legislation used, to the exclusion of all else, the “science of convenience” that meets a political objective. While this “science of convenience” creates sensational headlines and warns of death and mayhem from vaping it tries to bury the truth. I would be preaching to the choir if I discussed the fact that vapour is benign. I would suggest that the decision of where one can vape be left to property owners, tenants or employers.

3. Things Bill 45 doesn't cover but should because we have to give to get:

a. Certification of employees of Vape Shops: As a vaper of almost 3 years and thanks to the vaping community and committed vape shop owners I have vaped safely and completely kicked my tobacco addiction. Persons behind the counter should be certified in the areas of E-cigs and e-liquid use and safety and battery safety.
b. E-liquid testing: E-liquids for sale in Ontario (or anywhere for that matter) should meet the quality control standards as laid out by the Electronic Cigarette Trade Association.
c. Labeling: Bottles of e-liquid which leave the shop should be devoid of all promotional labeling and be restricted to Federal labeling requirements with only the e-liquid name, nicotine strength, batch number and best before date.

That's my take on the issue

While I agree with you for the most part there are some assumptions that need to be cleared. The profit and loss due to smoking is attributed to many things. As soon as you say you smoke they can blame any illness on the cigarettes and inflate the numbers to do just that.

My only other problem (which I actually like ) is in the certification and testing of the juices. While it seems good in practice and I wish all my juices could be certified. It would cost the vendor thousands and thousands of dollars, which would then inhibit their tendencies to try new things or introduce new flavours. They would stick to 4 or 5 flavours and would inhibit growth of their lines.

It would literally halt vendors and their lines and let only the haves get more while the have nots get less. It also opens a spot where only big tobacco gets certified by being cost prohibitive. The idea is to have more choices,not less and this one can kill the entire industry by itself.

 

[vincom]

u forgot about tobacco corporate taxes, corporate related expenses such as leases etc, taxes of tobacco employees , store retail sales taxes, vendor bussiness tax, vendor and its employess taxes, spinoff sales eg. lighters, burnt clothing replacement, cleanup of butts, ashtrays etc etc.

 

[caramel]

[...] $4.4 billion in lost productivity for a total cost to the Ontario economy of $6.0 billion annually.[...]

They conveniently forget to mention that this is caused by government's regulations regarding indoor smoking.

The reasoning is terrible. First, we mandate the washrooms to be in a separate building than the workplace. Then, we calculate how much is lost in "productivity" due to the time the employees need to dress and travel forth and back to the washrooms. Then we come up with the solution: a tax and more restrictions on washroom usage to discourage employees from using them.

 

[Vatigu]

Vote deferred.

April 2, 2015

Declared carried. Referred to the Standing Committee on General Government

We're almost past the point of no return now... GG vaping in Ontario...

third reading is effectively a stamp...

 

[EdT586]

Is there a reason why liquid nicotine and e-liquids is not allow enter or for sale in Canada ?
I know Health Canada posted a warning, but a warning is far being the law and CSBA has no rights in stopping them from entering the country !
There should be a class action suit against the Canadian Government and CSBA !

 

[vincom]

^^ good luck w that argument here in Canada.
Health Canada has power to deem what is safe or not as such can stop item from entering into Canada, citizens would have to file a lawsuit against HC in which it would cost a bundle and I don't see lawyers lining up to take this on for us.

HC IMO is a just a govt sponsored puppet for big pharma

 

[Vatigu]

Is there a reason why liquid nicotine and e-liquids is not allow enter or for sale in Canada ?
I know Health Canada posted a warning, but a warning is far being the law and CSBA has no rights in stopping them from entering the country !
There should be a class action suit against the Canadian Government and CSBA !

CBSA is an enforcement agency. They don't make the rules they just listen to health canada and do what they're told. HC has avoided lawsuits by backing down whenever there was potential for one and has thusly protected it's rules from being struck down.

Either way it's irrelevant the standing committee on health has made fairly reasonable suggestions(What they suggest is still overkill but it's nowhere near as bad as what most states are doing) to the federal government which will end HC's blockade eventually. The problem here is Bill 45 being signed into Ontario law means vaping in Ontario is screwed. We won't be as badly off as the US if the FDA deems them, but all of our B&M's will be dead in the water guaranteed and lots of current smokers will not get the chance to quit using an e-cig.

 

[Woofer]

It also sets a precedent for other provinces to follow, not good.
I am not aware of much protest from the Ont vapers, I hope that is my ignorance showing and not the way it is.

 

[Vatigu]

I've been emailing every legislator I can but can't do much in person with a full time job.

 

[Ryedan]

Vote deferred.

April 2, 2015

Declared carried. Referred to the Standing Committee on General Government

We're almost past the point of no return now... GG vaping in Ontario...

third reading is effectively a stamp...

Bill 45 is going into review phase by the Committee for General Government. A public hearing will be held Monday, April 20th, and review of written only submissions will happen on Wednesday, April 22.

If anyone wants to register to be heard - here is the info:

Bill 45, Making Healthier Choices Act, 2015.

The Standing Committee on General Government will meet to consider Bill 45, An Act to enhance public health by enacting the Healthy Menu Choices Act, 2014 and the Electronic Cigarettes Act, 2014 and by amending the Smoke-Free Ontario Act.

The Committee intends to hold public hearings in Toronto on Monday, April 20 and Wednesday, April 22, 2015.

Interested people who wish to be considered to make an oral presentation on Bill 45 should contact the Clerk of the Committee by 4:00 p.m. on Wednesday, April 15, 2015.

Those who do not wish to make an oral presentation but wish to comment on the Bill may send written submissions to the Clerk of the Committee at the address below by 5:00 p.m. on Wednesday, April 22, 2015.

An electronic version of the Bill is available on the Legislative Assembly website.

The Clerk of the Committee is:

MPP Sylwia Przezdziecki
Phone: 416-325-3515 Collect calls will be accepted.
sprzezdziecki@ola.org

Room 1405, Whitney Block/Bureau 1405, édifice Whitney
Queen’s Park, Toronto ON M7A 1A2


I emailed Sylwia Przezdziecki last week and she registered me. I included the following information:

Contact name
Presenters' names and titles
Address, contact phone numbers, and email
Bill name or number, or issue that presenters wish to speak about

If anyone would like more information or any help with this, please post and/or PM me.