Black Market - Is it heading in that direction?

[Vocalek]

If NY manages to pass a sales ban on e-cigarettes, perhaps guys like "Lonnie Loosie" can pick up the slack.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/05/nyregion/05loosie.html?_r=1

 

[jlarsen]

I remember when "loosies" (they weren't called that, maybe "singles" or something, I can't remember) were legal here in MT for stores to sell. I think I used to pay $0.20 a piece for them at the one convenient store in town that sold them. (at $1.89 a pack back in "the day" cigs were less than ten cents a piece if you bought them by the pack). Most stores didn't bother, because technically they'd still have to card you for a $0.20 purchase, it wasn't worth their while. Now it is against state law (I believe). At $6.10 a pack, a single cig would have to go for about $0.65 (doubling the cost), even if it was legal.

 

[trying]

Given that no matter which way the court rules the FDA will heavily curtail what is now an unregulated E-cigarette market and that will make a black market all but inevitable.

 

[Josh the Happy]

Damn, i'm going to commute to the big
city and start selling loosies myself.

 

[jlarsen]

Given that no matter which way the court rules the FDA will heavily curtail what is now an unregulated E-cigarette market and that will make a black market all but inevitable.

+1

Stock up on hardware and unflavored juice for DIY. No matter how much they regulate the ecig industry, they can't ban all candy flavorings.

If a person bought a good sized supply of battery connectors and atomizers, they wouldn't even need commercial devices, they could build a mod as needed. All anyone needs is a couple of drip tips, battery connectors, atomizers, and a gallon jug of 100mg/ml nic juice in the fridge - radio shack and the candy supply shop could do the rest, the FDA could do their worst and not be able to impede that person's vaping for years... a decade maybe.

It's too bad the hellomizer startup went belly up before it got off the ground, an atomizer that could be rebuilt indefinitely - the FDA's worst nightmare.

Customs can't stop every unmarked package from China from getting through anyway. It would be almost impossible for them to stop ecig sales. That's why they have to attack the product's safety, and prevent its awareness... people can't use what they don't know exists, and won't use what they believe to be unsafe.

 

[earthpig]

Downside is it kills the industry as far as availability, and makes no new users (or very few).
Then where will we be a few years out.

 

[rothenbj]

Damn, i'm going to commute to the big
city and start selling loosies myself.

Okay, if you're going to sell them, at least do it smart. Get tax stamped packs so you're not selling contraband, then keep refilling the packs with the black market smokes. At a buck for 2 you're not making a profit in NY, you're just being a nice guy.

 

[VpnDrgn]

Psst, Hey mister.... need some juice?

 

[Traver]

Of course the real money is in black market cartons. That industry was there 45 years ago when I lived in the city and I'm sure it's much bigger now.

 

[sqirl1]

there's no need. all we need to do is find a different purpose to say the batteries, atomizers, cartos etc. are for. One idea I have is to make them and market them as parts for costume props, which a buddy of mine is actually thinking about using his E-cig for; he said he was going to make a fake gun and get some pure PG and use his E-cig to make it look like smoke is coming out of it. Every thing with E-liquid would need to be DIY or at least the nic would need to be, but the beauty of an E-cig is that the parts could be dubbed as just about ANYTHING to evade FDA jurisdiction, it's just that it would be harder to reach new users.

 

[proax9]

Maybe I have it wrong- but I do not believe the FDA will go after the hardware (as mentioned above- too easy to make from Radio Shack anyway). They cannot go after the flavors, VG or PG. However- they can make nicotine "impossible to get" legally- leaving US vapers to purchase from people selling anything and everything as 'nicotine'

 

[meeems]

Psst, Hey mister.... need some juice?

Hahahahaahahahahhhaah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...almost on the floor over here.....

picturing you in a dark alley on a side street'...hahahahahahaha...

 

[earthpig]

proax9
They have attempted to go after the hardware, with N-Joy, referring to them as "drug delivery devices". It was shot down in court, appealed and shot down again.
That's N-joy, but it doesn't mean they are done trying. What the loss was is the FDA has jurisdiction now, through the Tobacco Act (now modified, to the best I understand it) is Nicotine from tobacco (which is the best and presently only source)..

Everyone is awaiting the FDA's next move, which is inevitable.

 

[Vap0rJay]

Let em ban hardware! I'll just direct drip on my stove top atomizer (that big glowing electric coil)!
*gets out a really long straw to suck through*

Seriously... ban nicotine.. I'll get out my bunsen burner and chemistry kit... Play chemist and figure extraction method on:

1. Tomato: As hard as it is to believe, tomatoes do contain some amounts of nicotine. It has a net weight of 7.1 to 7.3ng/g. What this translates to is about 7.1 ng of nicotine for each gram a tomato has. However, it is said that the nicotine content reduces when the tomato ripens and it contains a nicotine alkaloid known as tomatine.

2. Potato: This is a vegetable that contains a nicotine alkaloid known as solanine, mostly found in the peel. A potato has an average weight of 15ng/g but goes to about 42.8ng/g if the potato is green or still budding while the ripe ones contain as little as 4.3ng/g net weight. If you get pureed potatoes, then the amount shoots up to about 52ng/g. Such high nicotine content is said to have fatal implications on human health.

3. Eggplant: Also known as aubergines, these contain about 100ng/g of this harmful substance. This may be the highest nicotine reading next to tobacco products. This loosely translates to the fact that about 10 kilograms of eggplants could contain the nicotine content of a cigarette.

4. Teas: As much as tea is one of the healthiest beverages around, it also contains some amount of nicotine. Green and black tea, whether caffeinated or decaf, does contain some nicotine. Black tea, for example, has content of about 100ng/g of nicotine. Instant tea, as compared to natural brewed tea, may have a nicotine reading going up to 285ng/g.

5. Peppers and Capsicums: These food flavorings contain alkaloids known as solanine and solanadine, much like the other nightshade family variations. You will find that peppers contain solanine levels of about 7.7 to 9.2 mg per 100 grams of food serving.

6. Cauliflower: Although it is not part of the nightshade family, it does contain its own share of nicotine. Cauliflower has nicotine standing of about 16.8ng/g.

And what are they going to do??? Make produce illegal?!?

 

[Traver]

I will find a way to get what I want but there are many vapors who will go back to cigarettes. Drastic FDA regulations will also stop or drastically reduce the number of smokers who switch. Those people will be condemned to suffer from all of the bad health effects to cigarettes. Another reason is that as more smokers switch we will have more clout with the government.

 

[VpnDrgn]

With the current circumstances ( where anyone that wants to sell juice just has to buy some base ingredients ) as they are, there is some concern over safety
and quality control. At least there is a sort of built in control. If a vendor lets his juice become contaminated, it will not taste good and he loses business.

If however, nic juice goes black market because of bans, there will be no controls at all and there will be no way to tell what kind of poisons will be in the
nic juice we bought from some guy that thinks he knows how to distill nicotine.

 

[Traver]

With the current circumstances ( where anyone that wants to sell juice just has to buy some base ingredients ) as they are, there is some concern over safety
and quality control. At least there is a sort of built in control. If a vendor lets his juice become contaminated, it will not taste good and he loses business.

If however, nic juice goes black market because of bans, there will be no controls at all and there will be no way to tell what kind of poisons will be in the
nic juice we bought from some guy that thinks he knows how to distill nicotine.

I don' see why juice can't become contaminated with bacteria still taste good and cause a large number of people to get sick. The one thing I found disturbing about the FDA report was the sloppy mixing. After reading it I started to mix my own juice. I agree about the black market. Although there are other countries you can buy nicotine from. Just don't put it on the package.

 

[Vocalek]

2. Potato: This is a vegetable that contains a nicotine alkaloid known as solanine, mostly found in the peel. A potato has an average weight of 15ng/g but goes to about 42.8ng/g if the potato is green or still budding while the ripe ones contain as little as 4.3ng/g net weight. If you get pureed potatoes, then the amount shoots up to about 52ng/g. Such high nicotine content is said to have fatal implications on human health.

52 ng/g is equivalent to 0.000052 mg / g. I am using e-juice that contains 24 mg/g of nicotine. Shouldn't I be dead by now?

If a vendor lets his juice become contaminated, it will not taste good and he loses business.

Propylene glycol has antibacterial and antifungal properties. Vegetable glycerin is also said to have antibacterial properties.

 

[VpnDrgn]

PG and VG do have anti-bacterial properties, I was referring mainly to QC when talking about Mr. Vendor.

If nic juice is not properly handled and stored ( especially long term ) it can oxidize and if exposed to sunlight
the nicotine will begin to breakdown. If separate implements are not used to handle the concentrated flavorings
they can become cross contaminated very quickly. Therefore it is in the vendors best interest to use reasonable
care in processing the juices or he risk loosing repeat business.

Now Mr. Black Market on the other hand is another story.

If vaping is completely banned, our main weak point is going to be getting the nicotine juice. Beyond the fact
that concentrated nicotine is extremely poisonous, this stuff is very difficult to make. Nicotine by itself can
not actually be distilled. The tobacco is broken down and then a chemical that can be distilled is bonded to the
nicotine. After that chemical has been removed from the soup of chemicals in tobacco it is then separated
from the nicotine leaving it like 99% (?) pure. A crude analogy would be - If you just stuck your hand in water
and then pulled it out, all you would get is a wet hand and not very much water; but if you wrap your hand
in several layers of cotton and stuck it in the water, you would pull out a lot more water. The lab then
suspends the nicotine in PG using a homogenizing process that gives us our 100mg nic juice.

If we have to buy nic juice on the black market we will be taking a gamble on whether it came from an
accredited lab overseas or the .... lab down the street.

I am sorry about the ramble, but this is something that has weighed heavily on my mind since I determined
that vaping could indeed keep me off of cigarettes. I am not a chemist, my source is the internet so take
that for what it's worth. Feel free to correct me ( please don't just say "you're wrong" and move on,
cite your corrections and your source if you can ), or if you know of a simpler method please share.

Vape on People

 

[Papa Lazarou]

The trouble is not all of the black market is made up of likeable guys making a living selling "loosies" which they have bought out of state. A big problem in Europe and the UK (and I would imagine the US) is large scale importation of illicit copies of brands like Marlboro etc. from China. It is multi billion dollar industry, and the big money is attracting serious criminals. It's IMO a situation almost entirely of the various government's own making through their policy of consistent above inflation tax rises (in line with what the WHO recommends). The irony is this could end up with a health crisis far worse than if they'd just left things alone - some of the fakes have been found to contain very high levels of lead, for example.