Box Elder Nic

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George.B

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I Just finished reading Kurt's post on Box Elder titration results http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...on-we-have-problem-nic-titration-results.html I must admit I didn't get everything that was said about how the tests were performed, but I did see that the labeled mg/nic and the actual mg/nic levels were quite different. This concerns me in that 1. I don't want to buy some juice from a vendor, load my carto and die from nicotine toxicity on my first vape, and 2. I am concerned that this may lead to new regulations on nicotine and the vaping industry in general.
I certainly want anything I vape to be safe, but I also don't want to see the government step in and put the kabosh on the only thing that helped me kick cigarettes. Thoughts?
 

36tinybells

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I think it is awesome that this industry is self regulating, this industry is testing on it's own for it''s own! No gov agency made him test, he just did! Kudos to him!

That being said, I find it reprehensible that Box Elder has been so lax as to cause this to be an issue. Frightening. I will not be purchasing from them, for my diy, and hope that every vendor that uses them for their juice is verifying nic content. But as a consumer, I understand my risk and accept it, just like when I smoked cigs and knew that there was a risk, or when I eat prepare foods and know the risk involved in trusting the maker is following best practices.
 
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Sugar_and_Spice

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I Just finished reading Kurt's post on Box Elder titration results http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...on-we-have-problem-nic-titration-results.html I must admit I didn't get everything that was said about how the tests were performed, but I did see that the labeled mg/nic and the actual mg/nic levels were quite different. This concerns me in that 1. I don't want to buy some juice from a vendor, load my carto and die from nicotine toxicity on my first vape, and 2. I am concerned that this may lead to new regulations on nicotine and the vaping industry in general.
I certainly want anything I vape to be safe, but I also don't want to see the government step in and put the kabosh on the only thing that helped me kick cigarettes. Thoughts?


Welcome to ecf....
Believe me , we all share your views.....just go the extra step and ask the vendor you order your juice from, if they have tested to ensure the quality of product, and 2. who their supplier of nic is......if it is box elder, then don't buy....
There are plenty of other responsible suppliers that stand by their products and are not afraid to test....be pro-active....
happy vaping,
:)
 

vocr

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I think it is awesome that this industry is self regulating, this industry is testing on it's own for it''s own! No gov agency made him test, he just did! Kudos to him!

As far as I can tell, Kurt is not part of the industry. He is just like us, a vaper, who used his chemist skills to ensure the safety of his fellow vapers. I am picking nits, but I want it clear that it was not the "industry" that "self-regulated" here. It was vaper action that uncovered this extremely dangerous, definitely unethical and possibly illegal practice.

In that vein, though, I agree that is awesome what Kurt did. We need to watch each other's backs and make sure the "industry" is not harming us.

George.B, I think you will find your reaction is the same as even 5 year veterans of vaping. I am not a veteran, but I know my confidence is rocked. I DIYed because it gave me what I perceived as control. That illusion was shattered today. Later this week or early next I decided I will bring all my DIY stuff and some of my mixed juices to a lab and going to pay to get it all tested. Trust is a fine line and boxelder definitely shattered it for me.

I understand that they are also a big supplier for juice makers. Sugar_and_Spice's suggestion is well heeded, to ask and make sure the vendor is not getting their nic from Boxelder or do not buy from them.
 

kabonk

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well I've never got nic that was too strong from boxelder but I have no idea if it was weaker then it was labeled I have 1200ml of boxelder 24mg nic in my freezer from the last sale now that I'm mixing at 6mg at least I think I'm mixing at 6mg geez thats going to last a long time (I'm sure its not higher 24mg gives me a headache fast) I guess I'll be changing vendors RTS seems to have good prices
 

Vapoor eyes er

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There is a vid from a Dr. in Alberta who is studying Ecigs. He believes in them and said his only concern was the quality control of the product. He then stated all the North American companies seemed to sell exactly what they advertised and QC was not an issue. He also said he had concerns, in regards to QC, with "some" companies based in China. Overall he supports Ecigs.
As for Box Elder I had read that post long ago and the points that disturbed me was the facts the the Nic content was way above the advertised level and, more importantly, the company refused to answer emails in regards to this issue. I DIY and ALWAYS test my juice when it's delivered and after I mix it. An extra step but just to play it safe. The first batch I made I did mix up the ingredients and had to further dilute/ add ingredients. Ever since then I write down numbers, check and double check everything I mix.
 
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Sugar_and_Spice

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kabonk

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and what are you using to test it with?

There is a vid from a Dr. in Alberta who is studying Ecigs. He believes in them and said his only concern was the quality control of the product. He then stated all the North American companies seemed to sell exactly what they advertised and QC was not an issue. He also said he had concerns, in regards to QC, with "some" companies based in China. Overall he supports Ecigs.
As for Box Elder I had read that post long ago and the points that disturbed me was the facts the the Nic content was way above the advertised level and, more importantly, the company refused to answer emails in regards to this issue. I DIY and ALWAYS test my juice when it's delivered and after I mix it. An extra step but just to play it safe. The first batch I made I did mix up the ingredients and had to further dilute/ add ingredients. Ever since then I write down numbers, check and double check everything I mix.
 
I just ordered 125ml of unflavored juice from a supplier other than Box Elder. When I read Kurt's post I emailed the supplier I just ordered from and asked where they get their nicotine . . . they would not disclose the source but they assured me that is was good. I can understand the reasons for not disclosing sources for business reasons. Ideally though I would like to find a source for buying my e-juice that has a ongoing and regular testing of source materials protocol and they make this info available.
 

swedishfish

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This is a serious issue and I am not trying to minimize it in any way; but, as a smoker, you have an innate "understanding" of nicotine. If you vape something and it doesn't feel right, don't continue to vape it.

Exactly Mlinky. I ordered juice (take a wild guess where) during a big sale and I knew immediately that something was definitely 'off'.

I think they forgot the nic and it had a funky, moldy taste. They told me to let it steep. I'd have to put it in a time capsule and shoot it to the moon to steep the nasty out of that juice.
 

Sugar_and_Spice

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I just ordered 125ml of unflavored juice from a supplier other than Box Elder. When I read Kurt's post I emailed the supplier I just ordered from and asked where they get their nicotine . . . they would not disclose the source but they assured me that is was good. I can understand the reasons for not disclosing sources for business reasons. Ideally though I would like to find a source for buying my e-juice that has a ongoing and regular testing of source materials protocol and they make this info available.

rts says that they welcome and want testing on their nic......hope this is who you bought from....
 

kabonk

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well I just got this email from boxelder:

Hello Everyone,
Due to recent independent titration analyses we have decided to reveal our own internal methods of testing and quality control as well as our own independent analysis of liquids that have been diluted before they have arrived at our distribution facility. As I have stated before, we dilute pure nicotine down to just over 10% strength before it arrives at our distribution facility. At that point we have an independent GC/MS done to give us an accurate reading of the product ingredients and strengths. The diluted product comes in at about 11 to 13% in strength. We then we do a final adjustment to bring the product to an actual 10% strength. The reason for this is "if the product were to come in weaker than the target 10%", we would have no way of increasing the strength due to the fact that we only work with 10% strength or lower in the distribution facility.
We admit that mistakes could be made in labeling which could result in a product labeled as 48 mg/ml strength and actually be 100 mg/ml. Even a mistake like this could be dangerous and if we have made this type of mistake then all we could do is offer our humblest apologies and / or a replacement product. A product that is testing at at 272 mg/ml and labeled at 100 mg/ml is more than dangerous, it could be deadly. In all of our analyses (internal or independent) over the last two years we have never received a diluted batch for testing that was over 14%. We test every diluted batch and we will now post the latest independent tests online every time a new batch is run.
For clarity we will label each independent test that will match a lot number on every bottle that goes out.
Furthermore on some occasions we may run out of nicotine during a big sale at which point we may use products from other US vendors. Due to this we will also be posting random independent tests on other US vendors as well.
Please look for our current independent GC/MS reports at http://www.boxelderchemicalsupply.com/110811pgtest.pdf
With that being said, we feel that this issue is starting to appear more like a smear campaign against our company and less like a valid scientific exploration of the products we all use and vape. We appreciate the support from all of our customers and assure you all that we are extremely confident in our own internal safety procedures as well as the credibility of our independent testing labs and the quality of US vendors that we may utilize from time to time. So confident that I am willing to sign my name to this message and not hide behind an obscure username on a forum or the posting of a forum user that has never returned to respond to an original post.
Due to the fact that an unscrupulous company or individual could easily take our labeled product and increase or decrease the strength in an effort to disparage our hard earned name and reputation, we will be converting to a tamper resistant bottle for all of our nicotine products and we will only be responding to forum posted tests from credible laboratory testing facilities that will verify that they received what appears to be an un-opened un-tampered bottle of our product. We will not be responding to chemistry students who possibly are on the correct and intelligent path towards testing a given substance but who may also be unknowingly party to the destruction of one company for the benefit of another.

We realize that there are many issues associated with this business and we want to do our part to provide a new level of transparency to this whole industry.

Sincerely,


Brad Bacher
 

Rimau

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This is a serious issue and I am not trying to minimize it in any way; but, as a smoker, you have an innate "understanding" of nicotine. If you vape something and it doesn't feel right, don't continue to vape it.

Exactly!

This is exactly what the ani-vaping contingent loves. Something they can point to and say "that is why it needs to be regulated or banned". That is almost as scarry as not being able to trust a vendor. But, in the end, if you mix any new batch in a small amount and it feels wrong, you can always dilute, or just complain to the vendor and get it from somewhere else. This is the only instance I have heard of this kind of mistake. Could be a simple labeling error, still unexcusable, but not as bad as zero quality control.
 
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