Aaah lower resistance means pumping more volts through thinner wire quicker + smaller wire mass = higher performance.
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Build Suggestions for 21700 Samsung 30T
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No, that is incorrect. Lower resistance means pumping more amps through the same thickness and length. But my point was you're not getting lower resistance, because instead, you're getting higher resistance than the Ni80 coil build I suggested in my first reply to this thread, so that STILL invalidates your point of getting faster ramp up as a result from having lower resistance.
I believe you need to check your resistance table, SS is lower resistance than ni80 . As I stated earlier it's a balancing act of wire mass and resistance. Amps is what is pushing the Volts, the less resistance the faster the Amps (more amps required to push) can push the Volts through. Think of it as a river.
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I never said SS isn't lower resistance than Ni80. It is. But the problem you're forgetting is you can't do a fair comparison of the resistance if the thickness, and length, of the two metal wires (i.e. the SS wire and the Ni80 wire) aren't the same. Wire mass is actually irrelevant because instead you need to look at the volume, which is determined by the thickness and the length. Amps is not what is pushing the volts, as it is actually the other way around:
So I still have no idea where you must be getting at. You said to reduce the wire thickness in order to reduce the amount of metal to heat up, thereby getting faster ramp up. But if you reduce the wire thickness like you said, you're going to get increased resistance as a result, not lower resistance. Remember, the OP is already using SS so that's why moving from Ni80 to SS in order to lower the resistance cannot be possible.
Where I'm getting at is simple, if their target is for example 0.2 and they're not happy with the performance reduce the wire mass. SS is lower resistance so you can pump more power through smaller gauge than fatter wire with a higher resistance metal.I never said SS isn't lower resistance than Ni80. It is. But the problem you're forgetting is you can't do a fair comparison of the resistance if the thickness, and length, of the two metal wires (i.e. the SS wire and the Ni80 wire) aren't the same. Wire mass is actually irrelevant because instead you need to look at the volume, which is determined by the thickness and the length. Amps is not what is pushing the volts, as it is actually the other way around:
So I still have no idea where you must be getting at. You said to reduce the wire thickness in order to reduce the amount of metal to heat up, thereby getting faster ramp up. But if you reduce the wire thickness like you said, you're going to get increased resistance as a result, not lower resistance. Remember, the OP is already using SS so that's why moving from Ni80 to SS in order to lower the resistance cannot be possible.
Like I stated before it's a balancing act, you just can't push a button to ramp up to like 5V if you have to much wire. Now on a series Mod they like big fatty coils with over 8V.
OP needs to reduce their wire mass like what was suggested earlier of removing a core from 3 to 2 coils which would help.
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Like I stated before the mass is irrelevant because the volume is all that matters instead in this regard, but anyway, that was not my point. My point was if you're going to reduce the amount of metal (i.e., the volume, which is determined by both the thickness and the length like I also stated before), then if you're going to do so by decreasing the thickness of the core wires, the resistance goes up, not down. Upping the resistance causes slower ramp up, not faster. So your point re lower resistance is moot.
Moot point. See above.
Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators
Look at the explanation of the term "Heat capacity":
The higher the heat capacity, the slower your coil will be to heat up (and to cool down).
Next, go to wire wizard:
Wire wizard | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators
Here you can experiment with all the different variables for your coil. You'll soon find out that a tri-core fused clapton at 4.5 wraps, 3mm inner diameter, 6mm leg length, 27g/36g Ni80 has a noticeably lower heat capacity compared to 5.5 wraps, same inner diameter and leg length, 28g/36g SS316L. I.e., only 144.12 mJ/K (milli-Joules per Kelvin) for the Ni80 coil versus 155.96 mJ/K for the SS coil. This is despite the volume is almost the same. I.e., 38.80 mm³ (cubic millimeters) for the Ni80 coil versus 38.99 mm³ for the SS coil. (As you can also see, the resistance for both coils is pretty much equal, i.e., 0.234ohms for the Ni80 coil versus 0.24ohms for the SS316L coil, so still about 0.12ohms for a dual coil build in both cases.)
If the faster ramp up (and faster cool down) of the solution I gave is not enough, the OP could still decide to reduce the thickness of the wrap wire, from 36g to 38g, for example. But right now the Samsung 30T is the hardest hitting battery of them all, so that is why we should still be careful nevertheless to build our coils in such a way that they will not become too hot for our personal vaping preference. Ramp up time and cool down time are not the only factors that determine the performance of the vape. For example, if the number of core wires is reduced from 3 core wires to 2 core wires like you suggest, then as a result the total surface area of the coil will be reduced, and, in addition to this, the resistance will be increased. Thus, the amount of vapor production will be reduced, which may not be to the OP's liking.
But like I also said in my first reply to this thread, the performance also is part determined by the type of coil build. Fused claptons (and tri-core fused claptons) are not at all bad, but they certainly aren't the be all end all. On a single battery mech, dual coil aliens at 4.5 wraps, 2.5mm inner diameter, 27g/36g Ni80 are my preference. But because the Samsung 30T is hitting so much harder, 2.8mm inner diameter works better. That is, at least for me. Then again, I only use the Samsung 30T in my stacked tube mechs.
dripster,
Don't mean to single you out as my comments here apply to entire thread, using your comment only as a reference example.
Not taking sides in this discussion, I do hope to bring sides together or at least get parallel in what is being discussed. It appears a simple solution has become full blown debate ...
1) Possibly some of us may be using terms that are irrelevant and or wrong based on the topic (performance increase).
a) Mass vs. Volume - I would argue that when discussing round wire (only thing discussed here) that there is no differentiation between these two terms (two wires of equal mass will have equal volume +/- an insignificant value related to performance). It is not like we are talking a pound of feathers vs a pound of lead ..., or a cup of milk vs cup of flour ... where volume and mass have significant difference because objects vary greatly in density.
b) The important consideration is the amount of wire (length, diameter, # of). Without changing the composition of the wire the TCR remains constant.
c) The important consideration related to performance being how quickly the wire heats and cools given equal power and time. In this thread, I believe we agree, increase performance related to decreasing ramp up & cool down time.
d) I would argue that when it comes to heating something up (coil wire in this case), that mass is more significant than volume. We could argue VHC (Volumetric Heat Capacity) and I would agree with you, and comment VHC must be calculated using density, molar mass ... and we could go on discussing Joule Heating (Ohimic & Resistive Heating). Regardless 1a above negates discussion on heating vs electrical capacity and whether term mass or volume more relative to quantify amount of wire.
e) not going to comment on electrical flow through core vs circumference of a wire.
2) Possibly some confusion related to wire guage, specifically AWG (American Wire Guage) and effect on resistance and resultant performance. Yes, what we call guage could have different meaning to someone who measures in different units (SWG = Standard or Sterling Wire Gauge, BWG = Birmingham Wire Gauge, etc.), and whether the unit of measure is empirical or gemoteric.
a) The higher the gauge number (AWG) the bigger the number), the smaller the diameter and the thinner the wire.
b) Since thicker wire carries more current because it has less electrical resistance over a given length, thicker wire is better for longer distances and for minimising heating (which increases resistance).
c) Thinner wire having more resistance will heat up more quickly (given same current), and as it heats resistance will increase causing additional increased heating, etc.
dripster,
Your comment,
"Upping the resistance causes slower ramp up, not faster.",
appears to assume increasing wire length (to up resistance) and appears to ignore "by decreasing the thickness of the core wires" (increasing a wire guage # = smaller wire diameter) increases resistance. BUT, by reducing the amount of wire (smaller diameter) time to heat is reduced and power to temperature is also decreased (see 3 below). Additionally, as the wire heats resistance increases, and the heating increases further.
Net bennifit, increased performance, shorter ramp-up, less power consumed. One possible method of resolution to OP as elluded to in post #2 of this thread.
3) Additionally, reducing the amount of a strand of wire (mass, volume, etc.) can have two different/opposite effects on resistance but yield similar performance change.
a) Reduce the length of wire (less wraps or smaller diameter coil), all else constant = decreased resistance.
b) Reduce the diameter of wire (higher AWG = smaller diameter wire), all else constant = increases resistance.
Even though the effect on resistance is opposite (3a vs. 3b), both decrease ramp up and cool down time (increase performance as described in this thread).
Hopefully something here pulls us together, possibly something for me to learn and or to help others.
Regards,
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Talking about the mass instead of the volume just adds to confusion when there really is no need to. See point b) below, and, I should add that coil building is an art form so, because we're dealing with art, subtle differences can, and do, matter.
This only confirms my earlier statement that the volume is all that counts.
Yes and no. Depending on who you talk to, the ramp up time may be not nearly as important as some would like to assume, as there are other important factors related to performance besides the ramp up, but in the specific case of the OP it would seem clear that slow ramp up is the main cause of the problem.
I would argue that when heating something up there is no need to try and re-invent the laws of physics. There is a reason why wire wizard on steam engine automatically calculates the Heat Capacity for your coil, the reason being it already takes both the volume and the density correctly into account just so people who don't understand why this Heat Capacity is all that matters can accept the simple fact that it is all that matters and so they don't have to worry about massively confusing talk about mass.
Why not?
For round wire thickness in vaping, AWG has always been the norm everywhere around the world.
Yes, but every person who knows how to build a fused clapton coil already knows this fact.
We're not designing a power grid to transfer nuclear power to your wall outlet here.
Ohm's law dictates that having more resistance will give less current (given same voltage), and as the current drops it heats up slower, not faster.
Incorrect. I already explained it to him three times, you can't talk about the lower resistance of SS compared to Ni80 like he does because everyone already knows that lowereing the resistance of your build gives more power on the mech, and, hopefully, everyone using a mech also aready knows more power ramps up faster so instead you have to look at an SS coil the resistance of which is going to be the same as that of the Ni80 coil that you're going to compare it to by comparing apples and apples instead of insisting on comparing apples and oranges the entire time. It really is that simple.
Like I already stated, the Heat Capacity is all that matters both in terms of ramp up (given same power measured in watts, power transformed to heat at the coil) and in terms of cool down (given same dissipation of heat, also measured in watts). And no, the heating doesn't increase if resistance is increased, as power is inversely linked to resistance on the mech, and also the voltage of the battery continues to sag further down after the start of the pull so the power declines.
Net benefit, you just wasted a lot of forum space to show that you don't understand physics at the high school level.
Sure. But the claim that reducing the power (i.e., by increasing the resistance of your build on the mech) is going to help to speed up the ramp up is logically insane. I'm not saying reducing the amount of metal won't help to speed it up. It will, and will do so for reasons that should be completely obvious. But by ignoring the fact that Heat Capacity of the coil is determined by both the amount of metal and the metal type, circular debate remains circular, also for reasons that should be completely obvious.
Changing the resistance changes power on the mech. Lower resistance = higher power = faster ramp up.
Having less metal to heat up will speed up the ramp up, but choosing a metal type that heats up faster (e.g., Nichrome 80 instead of SS) will do the same. Performance is not solely determined by ramp up, and, perceived performance is all that matters so it all boils down to personal preference. Some people prefer smaller SS coils that use thinner wire, whereas others don't. That is why I'm leaving it for the OP to decide, by providing an alternative solution that is based on rational knowledge instead of by using false arguments to try and steer a debate.
If something is going to pull me together, it will be the exact opposite of incorrect/misleading information.
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I can save everyone an awful lot of time here - just use standard round wire builds. I don’t get all this fancy pants stuff. All that added aggro (as can be seen above!) and cost for minimal to no increase in performance over a well built, round wire build.
Everyone who vapes must legally be old enough to decide on their own behalf the amount of time coil building is or isn't worth spending on, and, building your own fused claptons isn't exactly rocket surgery (and the same applies to staggered fused claptons and aliens). Just don't listen to people who add all that added aggro and I promise you it will be just a piece of cake!
Everyone who vapes must legally be old enough to decide on their own behalf the amount of time coil building is or isn't worth spending on, and, building your own fused claptons isn't exactly rocket surgery (and the same applies to staggered fused claptons and aliens). Just don't listen to people who add all that added aggro and I promise you it will be just a piece of cake!
I have been there and done that with more fancy pants builds than I care to mention. And I concluded from that that a regular spaced build took seconds to do, cost pennies for years, and gave as good a performance. For me (and I totally appreciate others feel differently - that is the joy of vaping) there is simply no point in wasting my time with such things, especially as I don’t gain anything from it.
Agree, just take you cotton and wrap your wire around it and vape like a decade ago and enjoy life.
Not however what OP subject was though so there we go. Seems thread should be dead until OP chooses to reply .
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Not however what OP subject was though so there we go. Seems thread should be dead until OP chooses to reply .
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I know man a lot here are stuck in the old world of vaping
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So basically, because it is an old method we shouldn’t be doing it?
Believe it or not, some of us here use equipment to get a decent vape experience. Not just to make huge clouds to look cool infront of our mates.
So basically, because it is an old method we shouldn’t be doing it?
Believe it or not, some of us here use equipment to get a decent vape experience. Not just to make huge clouds to look cool infront of our mates.
To me round wire coils is not a decent vape experience for me is all no vape how u like my man but u make it sound like we are dumb for liking thy way we link to vape is all
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Rule #1 in vaping, when dealing with round wire build aposthles never try to steal their holy grail away from them or useless crying will ensue.
The apostles are dead and gone. There's no need to revive them. And according to urban legends the holy grail is burried deep below the ruins of Petra.
Round wire builds provide a cooler vape and rampup is a bit quicker than vaping on fancier builds.
That said, and although I prefer fused claptons, both types of coils have a raison d'être.
Back to topic.
I'm happy with a dual 4.5 wrap, 3mm ID, 28*3/36 Ni80 setup ohming out at 0.18.
Not that this info yields anything useful, because it is probably a much weaker vape, than the OP would prefer
Round wire builds provide a cooler vape and rampup is a bit quicker than vaping on fancier builds.
That said, and although I prefer fused claptons, both types of coils have a raison d'être.
Back to topic.
I'm happy with a dual 4.5 wrap, 3mm ID, 28*3/36 Ni80 setup ohming out at 0.18.
Not that this info yields anything useful, because it is probably a much weaker vape, than the OP would prefer
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While I agree there's no need to revive round wire build aposthles, somehow they just keep reviving themselves (usually in places where more complex builds are being discussed). And according to me the holy grail is made from strawberries and tropical fruits.The apostles are dead and gone. There's no need to revive them. And according to urban legends the holy grail is burried deep below the ruins of Petra.
Round wire builds provide a cooler vape and rampup is a bit quicker than vaping on fancier builds.
That said, and although I prefer fused claptons, both types of coils have a raison d'être.
Back to topic.
I'm happy with a dual 4.5 wrap, 3mm ID, 28*3/36 Ni80 setup ohming out at 0.18.
Not that this info yields any useful information, because it is probably a much weaker vape, than the OP would prefer
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