California Statewide Flavor Ban?

[Jazzman]

First I do agree there aren't going to be a lot of people selling this on the side (illegal dealing). If anything it will be people making some to sell to family and friends to cover their own costs of making juice. I don't see this as the next big organized crime market.

Now here is where I start to disagree. Just because some individual(s) are making liquid to sell illegally doesn't mean they are going to start putting random crap in it. Why would they waste money buying extra crap to put in it? Do you really think most current juice mixers really ran out and bought a lab to start their business? I would bet every last one of the name brands started out as a guy in his garage or a vape shop in house brand before they "got famous". Even today I doubt many if any are made in a lab by full fledged chemists beyond the stuff used by JUUL and other big name pod brands. The fact is you don't need a lab or a chemical engineering degree to MIX juice. It is precisely because it is so cheap and easy to do that makes DIY so worth while to anyone willing to do it. All someone would need to do to scale up from DIY to sales is more space, more ingredients, more bottles, and some extra people that can follow a simple recipe.

I'm not going to disagree that there could be conscientious "big joe" mixers. I've been making juice for over 5 years for myself and a very few select friends. I try to be very exact and clean when I mix. But I would not sell my juice to anyone and especially in the parking lot of a CS... lol. But I do think this will take us back to the days when shops made their own juice in the back room under suspect conditions and practices.

And yes there have been small manufacturers that started making juice themselves at home or whatever and scaled up to having their own lab or more commonly hired certified labs to make the juice for them to their specs to exacting standards and practices with verification of all components and QC reports to accompany the order. I can't think of a single well known brand that doesn't, but maybe there are some... dunno.

I just don't want to see this trend reverse with unknown and unknowable juice that could be problematic.

 

[ScottP]

I'm not going to disagree that there could be conscientious "big joe" mixers. I've been making juice for over 5 years for myself and a very few select friends. I try to be very exact and clean when I mix. But I would not sell my juice to anyone and especially in the parking lot of a CS... lol. But I do think this will take us back to the days when shops made their own juice in the back room under suspect conditions and practices.

And yes there have been small manufacturers that started making juice themselves at home or whatever and scaled up to having their own lab or more commonly hired certified labs to make the juice for them to their specs to exacting standards and practices with verification of all components and QC reports to accompany the order. I can't think of a single well known brand that doesn't, but maybe there are some... dunno.

I just don't want to see this trend reverse with unknown and unknowable juice that could be problematic.

I don't put much stock in either QC reports sent/released by the manufacturer or "certificates of authenticity" provided by sellers. My grandmother used to read the Enquirer and you wouldn't believe all the trash sold in that rag that came with such certificates. I remember one of them were crosses that were supposedly hand made by GOD himself and filled with holy water that came with such a certificate. Do people really fall for that? The truth is, anyone with a printer can make a certificate or QC report.

 

[Jazzman]

I don't put much stock in either QC reports sent/released by the manufacturer or "certificates of authenticity" provided by sellers. My grandmother used to read the Enquirer and you wouldn't believe all the trash sold in that rag that came with such certificates. I remember one of them were crosses that were supposedly hand made by GOD himself and filled with holy water that came with such a certificate. Do people really fall for that? The truth is, anyone with a printer can make a certificate or QC report.

I was probably not clear at all, sorry about that. The ejuice manufacturers that use certified labs are using private FDA certified labs that produce accurate certifications, ridiculous retention rules for QC paperwork, control samples that must be stored and available for validation testing at a later date, The FDA has audit authority, etc. It is more cost effective for small~medium sized ejuice manufacturers than building their own labs. It is a very common practice for ejuice to be made this way.

Since the deeming regs require this when fully enforced, most serious ejuice manufacturers have become proactive and have already made the move to their own labs or independent labs. Part of the reason is that FDA keeps moving the phase in target date for the regs that should have happened a while ago. But a serious company would have to believe the FDA was serious with their date and changed the business model well in advance of the first proposed date. The labs get the recipe and exact ingredients, make the juice, steep if part of the contract, bottle, label, and seal the juice. Or if the ejuice company has a bottling facility they might get larger containers of the final juice from the lab with all pertinent certifications and bottle, label, seal themselves. But I think it's much more common to have the lab do everything since it places the regulatory burden on the lab.

But I get your point. It's like a few years ago there were companies selling naming a star for you. Of course the the fine print actually said they would publish the stars name, so they made a book and sent you a copy with the location of the star in the heavens with the name you chose... but they never promised and didn't actually name a star.

 

[englishmick]

One of the things that really bothers me in this thread is the few posts I've seen saying those vapers that have quit smoking can just stop vaping too. I agree this is a solution, but it's not so easy really. The nature of addiction and dependency is just not that simple. Giving up nic, at least for me, is the easiest part of quitting if that's what I wanted to do. But that's only a small part of the addiction to smoking or vaping really. Of course smoking addiction is worse than vaping addiction I think with all the chemical additives that vaping doesn't have, and most of the ancillary dependencies of vaping probably originated from smoking dependencies... but vaping satisfies them quite nicely... and they still exist. Dependencies like hand to mouth ritual, sucking in a lungful of pseudo smoke, exhaling same, time of day I expect to get this ritual fix like after meals, etc. There are lots of carry overs from smoking that vaping satisfies that has nothing to do with nic fix, although that is part of it all. And even flavors play a very big part because in anticipation of the next toot on the mod is expectation of the flavor we know we will enjoy.

Before the huge price rise in cigarettes I would never have deviated from my favorite brand of smokes, and none of my friends would either. We had flavors we were used to and could anticipate (part of the dependency) and if a friend offered me one of his I would have to be fairly desperate to take it rather than run out to a CS to pick up a pack of my brand.

I know for me, after working for many hours without vaping, just the act of picking up my mod after I make to my car and out of my clients parking lot relaxes me before I even take a toot. And of course I relax even more after filling my lungs with that sweet, sweet flavor I had known was coming. And the onset of the nic effect after a short time validates the relaxing feeling I had when I picked up the mod and before I actually vaped. This is a small part of the addiction/dependency synergy. It's not a simple equation to understand or fix.

Finally, the argument that the vaper can just quit is narrow minded in the way that for the last 25 years at least this is the same argument non-smokers have used against smokers. It really makes me sad to see this argument used by vapers to other vapers.

This makes sense to me. I believe I would have a really hard time if I had to quit vaping tomorrow. If cigarettes were available I'm not confident I could resist.

On the other hand there was a survey posted here on ECF a few weeks ago showing percentages for various groups, dual users, ex-smoking vapers, etc. My memory isn't too good these days. Can't remember who put out the survey but I'm pretty sure it was someone sympathetic to vaping. Maybe something to do with flavors.

One surprise, to me, was the rather small number of long term vapers. The numbers seemed to suggest that most people who quit smoking through the use of vaping went on to stop vaping, either to return to smoking or to do neither.

 

[Beamslider]

I would guess a good percentage of adult that switched to vaping from smoking end up stopping both. I don't intend to but I have definitely cut back on the amount of Nicotine in the vape juice. Vaping for a couple years make it a lot easier to quit outright.

 

[ScottP]

I would guess a good percentage of adult that switched to vaping from smoking end up stopping both. I don't intend to but I have definitely cut back on the amount of Nicotine in the vape juice. Vaping for a couple years make it a lot easier to quit outright.

Personally I have been vaping for 6 years now. My ADV is "Winter's Frost" (Wintergreen + Cooling agent) that I make myself. If they actually managed to force me to stop DIY, I don't think I would go back to smoking. Unfortunately I would probably end up with diabetes from the new Ice Breakers habit I would end up with.

 

[Rossum]

So IMO, "big joe" is not a viable alternative for the majority to get their juice. Even if they know a "big joe" it would not be a wise decision to exercise that option... for obvious reasons.

It would be far wiser than going back to smoking.

 

[jandrew]

...
So IMO, "big joe" is not a viable alternative for the majority to get their juice. Even if they know a "big joe" it would not be a wise decision to exercise that option... for obvious reasons.

I wouldn't trust no Big Joe ... go see Big Jim on 42nd Street --- he guarantees good clean juice ... and don't nobody mess around with Jim (excepting maybe Slim).

 

[smacuser]

I'll visit once it becomes an island.

 

[JCinFLA]

You're someone they know, who vapes. If they didn't know anyone that vaped, they probably wouldn't have much interest.

You totally missed my reason for mentioning family and friends who've asked me about some of the current vaping news, concerns, potential bans, etc. Those people aren't even vapers...yet they are aware of those things and were asking questions about them. So, wouldn't you think that people who actually DO vape, especially those who vape to stay off the smokes...would or should want to be aware of them and interested in them, too? Those things will potentially directly affect THEM.

So to you the only way to find an ADV is to read ECF, follow the FDA, and be fully invested? /boggle

Geez! WTH???
How do you come up with these ridiculous ideas or statements, that you mistakenly attribute to me? Seems like there's some reading comprehension problems in this thread. That's OK though. I won't post anything further here, for you to twist and turn into something totally different than I actually said.

 

[mp25]

People underestimate the influence of California. Besides its obviously large population, it was the first state to ban smoking in restaurants in 1995 and in bars in 1998. Within 10 years, more than half the other states had done the same.

Not extremely relevant, but it’s just an example of how California likes to lead the charge “banning” things its politicians don’t like.

 

[ScottP]

Not extremely relevant, but it’s just an example of how California likes to lead the charge “banning” things its politicians don’t like.

I think I figured out part of the problem. States like CA and NY have legislatures with a constant year round general session so they have plenty of time to pass wasteful and unnecessary garbage. Meanwhile the Texas legislature general session lasts just 140 days in ODD years only, unless the Governor calls a special emergency session for something big. That is less than 20% of the time the CA legislature gets. So in the little time they have, they have to focus on the big meaningful topics and don't have the time for this kind of nonsense. So it seems to me what other states need to do is cut the time their politicians are allowed to work. Heck we should do that in the District of Corruption ... err Columbia too.

 

[TylerA]

You totally missed my reason for mentioning family and friends who've asked me about some of the current vaping news, concerns, potential bans, etc. Those people aren't even vapers...yet they are aware of those things and were asking questions about them. So, wouldn't you think that people who actually DO vape, especially those who vape to stay off the smokes...would or should want to be aware of them and interested in them, too? Those things will potentially directly affect THEM.

Sure, they may have heard something about vaping and the surrounding news but I still contend that your family and friends are asking you questions because they're more interested in you and your life, rather than vaping in general. I design websites for a living, people will ask me about that when we speak, but beyond that I doubt they care very much what happens in my field of work.

Most people people just want to go about their lives and don't have the time to sit in front of a computer doing a bunch of research. Since I started vaping, I've got three people to quit smoking entirely, and two more that have drastically reduced the amount of cigarettes they smoke per day ... however, two of these people are older, not tech savvy (they watch TV for news, they don't read internet forums), and generally don't care to read beyond local news ... two others have a 1 year old son, work full time jobs - they have more on their plate than to care about politics or laws regarding vaping ... the last person might be the only person that would bother investigating vaping news, etc.

Sure, in a perfect world, every person should want to know what affects their vaping experience ... but in reality, people do not have the time or have more important things that concern them. I think its a good idea to introduce vapers to the plights and concerns of fellow vapers, but I don't think we should force them to make it a priority.

 

[stols001]

I got into all the legislature stuff early on but I find it interesting. Also I joined ECF during the "sort of mad panic" about the deeming date. But I also got into DIY early on, and I don't think that is really typical but I had JUST QUIT after decades of 3 ppd smoking, so it was less a desire and more of a need. I was like "No one is going to take this away from me because I don't want COPD."

However, not every vaper "smokes to quit" in the extreme fashion that I did. Plus, I like to cook so it all made sense. I really enjoy it now, but that is just the bonus. The real deal for me Is NO ONE is taking vaping away from me EVER.

While I WAS buying juice in the deeming era, I saw ONE sign in a vape shop. It said, "Worried about deeming? Here is special price X on ONE liter of REGULAR JUICE."

I don't think that would take a person very far, and when I asked about it in vape shops staff either did not seem to know, or were encouraged to be rather opaque about it.

It is what it is. I mean the majority of profit in vape shops is eliquid. They're not going to advertise, "Stop buying our juice and HERE is how!" Not unless it's the bitter end and they are selling off the rest of their nic, PG and VG because flavors have been banned. Maybe then.

Anna

 

[Jazzman]

I got into all the legislature stuff early on but I find it interesting. Also I joined ECF during the "sort of mad panic" about the deeming date. But I also got into DIY early on, and I don't think that is really typical but I had JUST QUIT after decades of 3 ppd smoking, so it was less a desire and more of a need. I was like "No one is going to take this away from me because I don't want COPD."

However, not every vaper "smokes to quit" in the extreme fashion that I did. Plus, I like to cook so it all made sense. I really enjoy it now, but that is just the bonus. The real deal for me Is NO ONE is taking vaping away from me EVER.

While I WAS buying juice in the deeming era, I saw ONE sign in a vape shop. It said, "Worried about deeming? Here is special price X on ONE liter of REGULAR JUICE."

I don't think that would take a person very far, and when I asked about it in vape shops staff either did not seem to know, or were encouraged to be rather opaque about it.

It is what it is. I mean the majority of profit in vape shops is eliquid. They're not going to advertise, "Stop buying our juice and HERE is how!" Not unless it's the bitter end and they are selling off the rest of their nic, PG and VG because flavors have been banned. Maybe then.

Anna

This is a very salient point @stols001 . Most B&M vape shops rely on juice sales to stay in business. Juice is likely the highest profit item they sell and what they sell the most of. Juice sales is what drives the frequent return of customers, who then buy the shiny other things they see while at the vape shop, often expensive mods and attys. With customers not being able to buy their favorite, or even palatable juices I think it will have a detrimental effect on bottom line profits for these shops and will likely make it difficult for many shops to remain in business. Or at the least stay profitable enough to make the business model worthwhile for the long term.

So flavored juice restrictions is likely to have wide ranging effects on existing vape businesses. All CA would need then is an internet sales ban to pretty much kill vaping as we know it now.

All the more reason to fight this before this absurd proposal passes out of committee. If the the past is any indicator waiting until just before the actual bill is to be voted on to ramp up the fight, assuming it passes committee and is written as a bill to be voted on, has been a strategy in the past that has had very poor outcomes. It would be better to be vocal and proactive now because if the proposal passes committee and the time and effort is taken to craft a bill it will be very difficult to stop.

 

[stols001]

The stores (and store owners) are in a really crappy situation that is for sure. They're kind of damned if they do and damned if they don't. I think that is the reason for many "uniformed" vapers not knowing. If they go to a B&M for juice, they will not hear about DIY and etc.

Anna

 

[Don29palms]

The communist overlords in Kalifornia are the leader of unintended consequences. They really don't care about the people as much as they care about staying in power. Banning flavors will be just the first step to killing off vaping in Kalifornia.

 

[ScottP]

The communist overlords in Kalifornia are TV he leader of unintended consequences. They really don't care about the people as much as they care about staying in power. Banning flavors will be just the first step to killing off vaping in Kalifornia.

I don't really view the Cali government as communistic. I see it more like a Democratic Tyranny that wants nothing less than total control over it's citizens subjects.

 

[mcclintock]

Regarding tobacco flavors still being allowed, I can't help but think of that as a challenge. A lot of current vaping tobacco flavors have rather exaggerated nuances, for example very nutty, French Pipe is berry, other pipes are vanilla, RY4 tends toward vanilla and caramel, there's "sweet tobacco" and there are plenty of fruit/tobacco blends with vague names. As to "craptastic", purer tobacco flavors work best in vaping at a subtle flavor level, which is not ideal for quitting smokers but can become excellent.

 

[englishmick]

I think I figured out part of the problem. States like CA and NY have legislatures with a constant year round general session so they have plenty of time to pass wasteful and unnecessary garbage. Meanwhile the Texas legislature general session lasts just 140 days in ODD years only, unless the Governor calls a special emergency session for something big. That is less than 20% of the time the CA legislature gets. So in the little time they have, they have to focus on the big meaningful topics and don't have the time for this kind of nonsense. So it seems to me what other states need to do is cut the time their politicians are allowed to work. Heck we should do that in the District of Corruption ... err Columbia too.

Maybe depends on what you mean by work. It's not like the time they spend in session is a major part of their workload. Most of their time in any State is spent meeting with important (rich) people collecting money and discussing ideas on appropriate legislative action. Then they get together with other legislators and negotiate what gets to the top of the agenda. The last step is going to their House of business and voting stuff in. That part doesn't take much time at all. Pass the bills that matter to their donors, and fill in with a bit of political grandstanding to make it look real for the masses.