Case has E-cigarette industry fired up

[BengalBacker]

From my 18 months of vaping, I've found the versatility and the different combinations of the 510 to be the best overall option. If this thing really is superior and has a lifetime warranty on all hardware, I'll buy a kit and get a replacement battery and atty every time they fail. I've tried RN4081s and they are vastly inferior so if this just looks like one, but is much better, I'd definitely be interested. Maybe it's a M401? Can't be, because they don't hold a candle to the 510 either. A 306 maybe?

Also, in order to get the battery life you claim, that must be at least a 650mAh battery. I'd love to have a battery that small with that much power. I didn't know such technology existed yet. This is like the Holy Grail of vaping!

 

[jj2]

Part of a post that was the most helpful.

I have faith that democracy, and common sense, will prevail, but it does need that extra push.... here is the address to send to:

The Honorable Justices Ginsburg, Henderson and Rogers
U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. District
Constitution Avenue, N.W.
Washington DC, 20001

 

[Sainted_S]

From the BBB website.

As a matter of policy, BBB does not endorse any product, service or business.

BBB Reliability Reports are provided solely to assist you in exercising your own best judgment. Information in this BBB Reliability Report is believed reliable, but not guaranteed as to accuracy.

 

[Sainted_S]

Everyone wants to rag on Chinese products. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the guy who ran that plant that put melamine in the pet food executed? Maybe it was the exec. who's company adulterated baby food. Regardless of the case, it is standard practice in China to prosecute/imprison/execute executives who are guilty of killing for profit.

Contrast that to the U.S. where an executive whos company's products kill, maim, pollute and destroy are protected by law from any personal liability. Furthermore, as long as the death and destruction is not exposed to media scrutiny or attacked by John Edwards types, he'd get multi-million dollar bonuses for "efficiency". If the company is caught, the worse that would happen is that the exec. would be voted out by the B.O.D., granted a giant severance package, and quickly re-hired as CEO of another company.

I agree with you sailor.

 

[Sebastian]

Bengalbacker,
We really don't get into the whole discussion about battery performance on ECF. It is well known that most of the members on ECF prefer these cigar sized batteries or modified electronic cigarettes that look like you are smoking a walkman (we lovingly call those the Zack Morris models), we offer an alternative that is virtually the same size and shape as a cigarette. The battery lasts the equivalent of 200 4 second puffs and the cartomizer should produce over 200 puffs consistently.

I am aware that the site says 30 day warranty, for our ORIGINAL edition unit (all information on the FAQs pertains to that edition). The EAGLE edition is backed by a lifetime warranty.

Sainted,
The information in regards to registration is in refrence to manufacturing and is verifiable via the BBB. I've gone down this route before with posters on this forum and I am going to decline to have an ongoing discussion about it. They can also verify that our liquid is manufactured/sourced/mixed/filled in the USA. THIS is also verifiable via the FDA. Our electronics, yes some are made oversease, but most of the assembly and testing is done in the USA. We have a 17,000 square foot facility (and it's not a huge call center - we only have a 6 person call center), most of the rest of that space is order fullfillment, testing, assembly and filling (verifiable via the Plain Dealer or the News Herald for Northern Ohio - which have both seen and even taken pictures of our facility....google it).

As far as our testing goes, please feel free to go to our website. We have it posted directly from our home page. It was a 3rd party and was not paid for by our company. So yes we have the testing: http://www.libertystix.com/LibertyStixLabAnalysis072309.pdf

If you want testing ALSO done by a third party on electronics you can go here: University of California - UC Newsroom | Electronic cigarettes require more suction

ALSO not paid for and we didn't even know they were doing the testing.
As far as the testimonials go, that was written as a refrence to the testimonials above. Additionally, BBB called these people as well (so THAT too is verifiable). The medical necessity thing refers to people using the product when they can't have nicotine (surgery or being on oxygen tend to be the top two reasons). Surgery because of the blood pressure consequences of nicotine, and oxygen tanks because the flame can make the tanks EXPLODE or cause fires (google oxygen tank cigarettes).

I think that pretty much covers everything. Also if you wish to ask me more please feel free to PM me, I hate getting into these long argumentative threads where I am incessantly defending my company. We are honestly too busy during the week, I just happenned to want to clear the air on the initial post.....funny thing is, by the time I finally post this there will be 5 more accredited experts who will have put their two cents in lol.

Thanks and happy vaping.

 

[Sebastian]

From my 18 months of vaping, I've found the versatility and the different combinations of the 510 to be the best overall option. If this thing really is superior and has a lifetime warranty on all hardware, I'll buy a kit and get a replacement battery and atty every time they fail. I've tried RN4081s and they are vastly inferior so if this just looks like one, but is much better, I'd definitely be interested. Maybe it's a M401? Can't be, because they don't hold a candle to the 510 either. A 306 maybe?

Also, in order to get the battery life you claim, that must be at least a 650mAh battery. I'd love to have a battery that small with that much power. I didn't know such technology existed yet. This is like the Holy Grail of vaping!

We do all our testing in house, and other processes with our cartridge filling procedure and machinery, as well as with a measured and consistent amount of liquid dispensed in each cartridge (cartomizer). We are fine with replacing product as long as alternate liquid and filling is not used with our equipment.

jj2,
Thanks.

Sainted,
You are not comprehending what I wrote, please verify information that we have provided to the BBB. They are VERIFYING information. This is different than endorsing a product. Nevertheless, I'm going to decline responding to any of your further posts. I appreciate your opinion, but I can't do the tit for tat thing all day. Please do an ECF search for Liberty Stix and just about every argument you are throwing my way has been answered almost to a T in one or more threads.

 

[BengalBacker]

Bengalbacker,
I am aware that the site says 30 day warranty, for our ORIGINAL edition unit (all information on the FAQs pertains to that edition). The EAGLE edition is backed by a lifetime warranty.

So on this Eagle edition, for as long as I live you will send me a new battery every time one dies? Do I have to pay the shipping both ways?

 

[Scottitude]

So wait, a member stating an opinion is threatened with "appropriate action" but an allegedly reputable supplier disparages the preferred hardware of many forum members in favor of his own, weak, flawed, sub-standard (and yes, obsolete) product that he claims has a lifetime warranty but his web site clearly states a "limited 30 day" warranty?

Which is it?

For the record, I bought one of these "superior" kits from a local smoke-shop and it was crap. Totally useless crap. So much so that he gave me a no-questions-asked free replacement as soon as I went back the next day and said half the carts wouldn't work and those that did wouldn't give me anywhere near "200 puffs".

When I took *that* one back for the same reason he said 70% of the "kits" he'd sold had been returned and offered to exchange them for an equivalent value of my old brand of cigarettes.

And "Sebastian", if your so convinced your product is so wonderful, send some freebies to a group of veteran ECF members well known for posting honest, accurate hardware reviews and see what they say.

My money's on "crap".

How 'bout it? Send out some review samples, I dare you; I double-dog dare you!

 

[Sebastian]

I forgot this in my previous post. You respond with threats of litigation to a poster on this forum that was expressing his opinion in an arena that should be open to people honestly sharing ideas and thoughts. The thing that really burns me up is that in my OPINION your website gave me the impression that you have some kind of permission from the FDA allowing you to sell ecigs, when currently no ecigs are regulated. For someone that has not researched ecigs it appears that there are no risks in using ecigs.

"Liberty Stix has been extensively tested and the cartridges have been toxicologically tested and none of the ingredients are considered cancer-causing agents. Additionally, Liberty Stix is currently engaged in pulmonary clinical testing, as well as testing through pediatricians that show fewer occurrences of upper respiratory infections, ear infections, and bronchitis in children of former smokers who have switched to Liberty Stix." Are those reports available for review?

Oops, didn't see this page before I responded.

"What does the FDA say about Liberty Stix?
Liberty Stix has yet to be approved by the FDA as a tobacco cessation product. However, we are registered with the FDA. Additionally, the FDA has issued a warning based on studies of Chinese based cartridge formulas. At Liberty Stix, quality, customer service, and innovation are our core values. We stand behind our AMERICAN made cartridge formula, made with 100% pharmaceutical grade ingredients, and agree with the FDA that some other formulas that are available in the market place do have fillers and potentially harmful ingredients. The Liberty Stix cartridge formula does not contain these ingredients.

Our current formula is made in the US and has not yet been evaluated to have these toxins, but does not contain any of the ingredients that the FDA has mentioned. None of the information on our website, implied or otherwise, has been evaluated by the FDA. Liberty Stix is an alternative to traditional tobacco cigarettes and has not yet proven to be a healthy alternative to traditional tobacco."

Well, that gets to the heart of it, doesn't it. Reading the fine print does help, though I imagine someone new to ecigs would gather from your site that you were sanctioned to sell ecigs because the FDA had evaluated your products.

A very fine line indeed between libel and false advertising.

I can only say WOW! But you answered the question that you were asking, then asked another that I think was also answered then put in your opinion. Cool. As far as the extensive toxicology testing MC/GS testing, that, as I stated before is listed on our site. The other testing is somewhat limited, as most physicians participating wanted to hold off until the FDA ruling. Those subjects will be invalid for any studies that we publish, but new testing will restart once the ruling finalizes.

However, I am fairly confident in a favorable ruling. It is well known that, politically, Republicans seem to be supporting the industry in greater numbers than Democrats (also this is not an advocacy for one party over the other, it's just a statistic). Ginsburg and Henderson were appointed by Reagan and GHW Bush respectively, Rogers by Clinton. Two out of three, given the aforementioned, would lend itself to a positive ruling in favor of e-cigs.

 

[BengalBacker]

We are fine with replacing product as long as alternate liquid and filling is not used with our equipment.

So as long as I can prove I've bought your $3.50 cartomizers and only used them, without ever refilling them with other juice, then you will replace my dead battery, I assume shipping at my expense?

Wouldn't it make more sense for me to buy other cartomaizers and other batteries at much lower cost, even if there is no warranty? Unless of course your product is vastly superior to other products. Seems to me your warranty is kind of meaningless given the price of your cartomizers, especially if refilling them voids my warranty.

Just asking.

 

[Sebastian]

Scott,
Those were the ORIGINAL editon kits NOT the Eagle Edition. I will wholly admit the flaws in these ORIGINAL Edition kits. There weren't initial flaws in the Original Edition, but when the seizures started raining, down manufacturing became sub-standard. HENCE why I changed to this EAGLE EDITION, AND every wholesaler was offered an EQUAL value in swapping out all of their Original Edition equipment and cartridges for the Eagle Edition.

And I don't need to hand out freebies to find out the studies because the University of California has done a study for me:
University of California - UC Newsroom | Electronic cigarettes require more suction

Thanks and happy vaping.

 

[BengalBacker]

And I don't need to hand out freebies to find out the studies because the University of California has done a study for me:

hmmm.... Might be worth it for a few of us to chip in, buy a kit and have Grimm Green review it, then pass it on to another reviewer, and so on.

 

[Drozd]

you know I remember the first liberty stix website when it came around at least this time he's not claiming he invented the e-cig...
yeah I remember last time... and while I'm all for US products...expecially Ohio based companies... I gotta say that something about this outfit just hits the wrong chord with me... maybe it's because I remember the first time he showed up and some of the claims that were made...
expecially the claims as far as how long a cartridge lasts.... and I think the lsat time we got into the same go round...
but if what was an average pack a day smoker goes through 2-3 ml a day as polls around here have shown... I'm not sure how with a cartridge capacity of .95ml they can claim that a cartridge is equivalent to 15-20 cigs...
as for the hardware...tough to tell just by looking at it but it looks just like a 306, or a L88B which is what a blu is .....(which are all the same threading as a 510...just that the L88B is reversed polarity from the 510 and 306)

I do find from the comments of that article that the owner is out of touch with the majority of vapers with the statement that manual buttons won't catch on..... however I could see where he might be coming from if all he's polling is the elderly in care facilities that he's servicing....ie too old and set in their ways when having to switch off analogs...these people are also not likely to be drippers or want to refil their own carts anyway....

and from a business perspective and what's going to be found in stores...prefilled cartridges and cartos is where the money is going to be...

 

[Sebastian]

BengalBacker,
Yep. Shipping is free on cartons.

You know Bengal, I have several retail shops in your area, as Ohio is our 3rd biggest selling state. If you would like, please call me tomorrow and I can rattle off a few of them to you. You can check it out first hand.....Additionally, you can even verify the quality of the Eagle Edition through the retailers....of course I would only ask that if you do this that you come back on to ECF to state the findings that I know you will find to be highly different than the experience of Scottitude.

The price of our cartridges is in line with anyone supplying the quality and service of our cartridges. If you want a Cadillac, you pay for a Cadillac. I believe we have a great cartomizer...I believe it to be our filling process and YES that is proprietary. It has MUCH different results than any person can drip (without oversaturating a cartridge and likely doing electronic component damage). It is a very accurate and expensive piece of equipment...

 

[Sebastian]

you know I remember the first liberty stix website when it came around at least this time he's not claiming he invented the e-cig...

I do find from the comments of that article that the owner is out of touch with the majority of vapers with the statement that manual buttons won't catch on..... however I could see where he might be coming from if all he's polling is the elderly in care facilities that he's servicing....ie too old and set in their ways when having to switch off analogs...these people are also not likely to be drippers or want to refil their own carts anyway....

and from a business perspective and what's going to be found in stores...prefilled cartridges and cartos is where the money is going to be...

I think when "INVENTED" it was discussed, my contention was the creation of the brand and the marriage of the components (electronic, filling, and American juice). It was kind of taken out of context in a 'gotcha' journalism fashion, and I addressed it then but am fine with re addressing it.

In retail stores, YES you are correct preffilled carts etc ARE the future of the industry, espescially in retail stores (only a VERY small fraction of our business is done over the internet). I smoked for many many years and I could name dozens of brands of cigs....but I can't name one ROLL YOUR OWN tobacco brand.... Same thinking applies here (it's also why we have the capability of filling huge volumes of cartridges for MANY different brands out there).

Additionally, the MAJORITY of smokers, not just the elderly, will not use a manual switch. We pick up alot of manual switch customers that prefer us over these things because they think the manual switch is a pain. I agree, otherwise I'd be carrying them.....

At least you understand what I am talking about though .

 

[BengalBacker]

BengalBacker,
Yep. Shipping is free on cartons.

You know Bengal, I have several retail shops in your area, as Ohio is our 3rd biggest selling state. If you would like, please call me tomorrow and I can rattle off a few of them to you. You can check it out first hand.....Additionally, you can even verify the quality of the Eagle Edition through the retailers....of course I would only ask that if you do this that you come back on to ECF to state the findings that I know you will find to be highly different than the experience of Scottitude.

The price of our cartridges is in line with anyone supplying the quality and service of our cartridges. If you want a Cadillac, you pay for a Cadillac. I believe we have a great cartomizer...I believe it to be our filling process and YES that is proprietary. It has MUCH different results than any person can drip (without oversaturating a cartridge and likely doing electronic component damage). It is a very accurate and expensive piece of equipment...

No, my question is, if I have to return a dead battery under warranty, do I have to pay the shipping, either way or both ways?

At $3.50 per cartomizer, and I can't refill them, it better be more than the Cadillac, I better fart rainbows.

I can buy juice, other cartos or atomizers, and vape my perfectly great 510s for about one fourth the price. I can even use auto 510 standard batteries, or even 901s for a fraction of the cost of your product if I don't want a "cigar" or a "Walkman". I want to know what makes them the Cadillac. What makes them worth that much more than what is already out there?

I've never tried your product, I have no reason to bash it, it just seems like some extraordinary claims are being made, and from what I've learned about vaping in 18 months, I don't see how your product could possibly be that much better than what has been available for a much better price some time now. I'm not going to go out and buy/try your product until you can convince me why it's better, other than saying it's the Cadillac.

Send a kit to Grimm Green, one to Big Ice Dog, and a couple of other reviewers and I'll trust their opinions. Or send one to me for free. I'll try it, and send it back to you after I've tried at least 4 cartos and report my honest opinion back here. If it's worth that much more than everything else, I'll say so, and I'll become a customer.

 

[Sebastian]

No, my question is, if I have to return a dead battery under warranty, do I have to pay the shipping, either way or both ways?

At $3.50 per cartomizer, and I can't refill them, it better be more than the Cadillac, I better fart rainbows.

I can buy juice, other cartos or atomizers, and vape my perfectly great 510s for about one fourth the price. I can even use auto 510 standard batteries, or even 901s for a fraction of the cost of your product if I don't want a "cigar" or a "Walkman". I want to know what makes them the Cadillac. What makes them worth that much more than what is already out there?

I've never tried your product, I have no reason to bash it, it just seems like some extraordinary claims are being made, and from what I've learned about vaping in 18 months, I don't see how your product could possibly be that much better than what has been available for a much better price some time now. I'm not going to go out and buy/try your product until you can convince me why it's better, other than saying it's the Cadillac.

Send a kit to Grimm Green, one to Big Ice Dog, and a couple of other reviewers and I'll trust their opinions. Or send one to me for free. I'll try it, and send it back to you after I've tried at least 4 cartos and report my honest opinion back here. If it's worth that much more than everything else, I'll say so, and I'll become a customer.

No you don't have to pay the shipping either way. We ship the new battery, usually the same day you call, with a Self Addressed Stamped Envelope to return the damaged product. As long as it isn't water damaged, or run over by a car, it's no problem and no cost to our customers.

What makes it the 'Cadillac'?

Well, not flatulence in 7 colors in an arc.... although that is a colorful response

Quality - Our Eagle Edition kit is great quality.
Customer Service - Both Trouble Shooting and if you have a faulty component etc. is excellent.
Innovation - Our filling machine, is the only one like it in the US that I know of, and until someone tells me otherwise WITH PROOF, I am going with that.... I have proof. (Clevelenad Plain Dealer, News Herald, and a few customers that I allowed to walk through to check out our operation).

If you can do it at 1/4 of the cost with American liquid, please do tell. That's less than it costs me! You do know that companies have to incur costs to do the labor of filling, plugging, heat sealing, boxing and shipping though, right? As well as customer service, insurance, gas electric etc. I mean, I am not sitting on the couch watching The Office reruns and filling cartridges lol, I'm on The Couch watching TiVoed office reruns while eating Stacy's Everything bagel chips...lol.

Before our employees even start filling it costs $10 just to prep them for work...... Purel their hands and wrists, booties for their feet, bouffants for their hair, surgical masks, tyvek suits....and then after they go on break you gotta do it all over again....

Alot of people want quality, but they have no concept on any level what that quality costs. They just know that they can go online and buy bottles of liquid for x amount of dollars and anything over x is a supplier ripping you off....simply not true.

 

[Drozd]

I think when "INVENTED" it was discussed, my contention was the creation of the brand and the marriage of the components (electronic, filling, and American juice). It was kind of taken out of context in a 'gotcha' journalism fashion, and I addressed it then but am fine with re addressing it.

In retail stores, YES you are correct preffilled carts etc ARE the future of the industry, espescially in retail stores (only a VERY small fraction of our business is done over the internet). I smoked for many many years and I could name dozens of brands of cigs....but I can't name one ROLL YOUR OWN tobacco brand.... Same thinking applies here (it's also why we have the capability of filling huge volumes of cartridges for MANY different brands out there).

Additionally, the MAJORITY of smokers, not just the elderly, will not use a manual switch. We pick up alot of manual switch customers that prefer us over these things because they think the manual switch is a pain. I agree, otherwise I'd be carrying them.....

At least you understand what I am talking about though .

I understand where you're coming from....but it just comes out sounding smug and self important...which is definitely not the way to win over customers.... it's the exact same reason I won't give any business to V4L either.... or the GG line of mods...but it has toned down some from the first incarnation of your website... so congradulations on that one...in my mind at least it's gone from a "oh hell no never" to just skepticism and trepidation

I get where you're coming from on the auto batteries as far as the elderly and newly transitioned smokers go...but to state that the majority of users prefer auto over manual....that's just a targeted demographic... that's like me saying that the majority of people watching TV prefer cartoons when the only people polled are 7 year olds...

you have a lot of users that prefer manuals because of either enviromental reasons or because they prefer to drip rather than use a cartridge...I dare say if you polled this forum the actual preference would be toward manual batteries...I know that for me for example auto batteries are just not an option so any product that only offers that is immediately off my personal list...

EDIT: and good dodge of the hardware question....

 

[LynGBH]

I'm just lovin' on the 20 cartos = 25 packs of cigs at.....yep, I just looked, $70. But wait! Free shipping!

You're preaching to the wrong audience, Sebastian. You're dealing with vape geeks here....not people in a position to be easily taken advanage of.

We also have pockets of business through retirement homes, and suppliers of products for people in hospice and other assisted living establishments.

 

[Sainted_S]

I'm just lovin' on the 20 cartos = 25 packs of cigs at.....yep, I just looked, $70. But wait! Free shipping!

Yer' makin' a bit of an azz of yourself, Sebastian. You're dealing with vape geeks here....not people in a position to be easily taken advanage of.....

Careful now, might get litigious on your azz.