Case has E-cigarette industry fired up

[Sebastian]

I understand where you're coming from....but it just comes out sounding smug and self important...which is definitely not the way to win over customers.... it's the exact same reason I won't give any business to V4L either.... or the GG line of mods...but it has toned down some from the first incarnation of your website... so congradulations on that one...in my mind at least it's gone from a "oh hell no never" to just skepticism and trepidation

I get where you're coming from on the auto batteries as far as the elderly and newly transitioned smokers go...but to state that the majority of users prefer auto over manual....that's just a targeted demographic... that's like me saying that the majority of people watching TV prefer cartoons when the only people polled are 7 year olds...

you have a lot of users that prefer manuals because of either enviromental reasons or because they prefer to drip rather than use a cartridge...I dare say if you polled this forum the actual preference would be toward manual batteries...I know that for me for example auto batteries are just not an option so any product that only offers that is immediately off my personal list...

EDIT: and good dodge of the hardware question....

Drozd,
It shouldn't come off as smug and certainly not self important. Posit that you have a business and people are making claims that are completely untrue. Of course you are going to want to defend your company. I'm sure I have lost customers by some of my responses on here, but I have also gained many as well. I am going to say what I think because I've been doing this a while and I am not out of touch with my customers either.... you can call at any given day and I will also be manning the phones so I can quality control how our customers are interacting with our staff. I KNOW that many people prefer manual here, but the demographic here isn't representative of people NOT on ECF.

I am giving what I believe more people want. I've been around for over 2 years now. In that time I have seen dozens, no HUNDREDS, of companies come and go. Maybe I am in the minority, but there is a substantial market for what I supply (In hardware, quality, and service). As far as winning over customers and toning stuff down, I think alot of the toning down has to do with people who challenged my claims following up so I didn't have to defend claims any longer. I'm taking the Steve Jobs approach of trying to interact with some of the customers out there, whether they like or dislike what I have to offer.

My apologies I didn't dodge the hardware question I was just trying ot cut and paste quotes (I'm a little tired), and it didn't work out. NO none of those models are mine but I also am not getting into all this model this, model that, battery capacity this and that stuff.

 

[LynGBH]

Careful now, might get litigious on your azz.

You're right. I guess I should edit the "azz" thing.

 

[Sebastian]

I'm just lovin' on the 20 cartos = 25 packs of cigs at.....yep, I just looked, $70. But wait! Free shipping!

Yer' makin' a bit of an azz of yourself, Sebastian. You're dealing with vape geeks here....not people in a position to be easily taken advanage of.....

LynGBH,
OK how many puffs equal a cigarette, or how long are those puffs, and how much nicotine, and how much vapor? Please quantify it because I believe it to be a mixture of the number of puffs combined with nicotine ingestion. It's clearly stated, on our website that you referenced, because I agree that the quantifying comparison of e-cigs to regular cigs is a bit of a gray area. My equation is cut and dry. You can't disagree with the numbers. The numbers equate to the assertion.

Now if you disagree with the assertion (the assertion being that a nicotine fix is the goal of the product), that's a different story altogether. But that's the great thing about the e-cig industry. You can go with someone like me that is going to try to do the right thing and give the right information, bash them, and I will just keep chugging along and rebutting with sound facts and evidence in quantifiable numbers.

The 'assertion' I am talking about is the belief, and the belief of pretty much everyone IN THE WORLD, that smokers are addicted to nicotine and using an e-cig to get that nicotine 'fix' (whether they want to eliminate that or diminish that fix is a matter of choice). Vapor production and the hand to mouth 'habit' are secondary stimuli to that nicotine 'assertion'. I can't make it any clearer than that.

Thanks for your comment, it gives me an opportunity to explain the numbers so people can really think of them from a utilitarianistic point of view and make their own rationale based on the aforementioned information! Happy Vaping!

 

[Sainted_S]

Well, you are definitely telling your customers what you want to hear.

I'm not posting on this thread again because, being such a noob, I didn't realized this a was a weed in the garden of ECF.

I am satisfied that many can read the posts here and come to their own conclusions. The only real issues I have are that you threatened a poster for expressing their opinion and I feel that you are bad for ecigs in general. You like touting that you are registered with the FDA when most of us on the forum realize that if ecigs are found to be drug delivery devices, none of the smaller businesses will be able to compete with the pharmaceutical companies.

 

[Sainted_S]

No, no, no, you have the right to express your opinion, Lyn!!

I didn't mean to take back my words, Lyn replied while I was responding. Ok, my lips are zipped.

 

[Sebastian]

Well, you are definitely telling your customers what you want to hear.

I'm not posting on this thread again because, being such a noob, I didn't realized this a was a weed in the garden of ECF.

I am satisfied that many can read the posts here and come to their own conclusions. The only real issues I have are that you threatened a poster for expressing their opinion and I feel that you are bad for ecigs in general. You like touting that you are registered with the FDA when most of us on the forum realize that if ecigs are found to be drug delivery devices, none of the smaller businesses will be able to compete with the pharmaceutical companies.

Sainted,
I said that you can verify through the BBB as to the information they have received from me. They accredited me only AFTER reviewing my information, as well as my website, as well as talking to some of our customers, and speaking with the FDA.

You can read the posts and certainly you can draw your own conclusions, apparently you did before your first post, and everyone else can call the BBB and verify them. And yes, they don't say whether or not they are true...in that case it is within any American's right to report me to the FTC or any other appropriate business regulation institution, if they find my claims are baseless.

Otherwise they can join the thousands of others that enjoy Liberty Stix. Like I said, many don't come on this site, I have a VERY small internet presence....it was different when Overstock.com was still selling our products until Paypal pulled the plug last month... OH but I think you can still access the reviews....all 4 or 5 star reviews, except one. Please feel free to do your research and get back to us Sainted, it seems you have taken quite an interest in LS.

If we don't hear back from you then happy vaping and thanks for the great discussion!

 

[BengalBacker]

No you don't have to pay the shipping either way. We ship the new battery, usually the same day you call, with a Self Addressed Stamped Envelope to return the damaged product. As long as it isn't water damaged, or run over by a car, it's no problem and no cost to our customers.

What makes it the 'Cadillac'?

Well, not flatulence in 7 colors in an arc.... although that is a colorful response

Quality - Our Eagle Edition kit is great quality.
Customer Service - Both Trouble Shooting and if you have a faulty component etc. is excellent.
Innovation - Our filling machine, is the only one like it in the US that I know of, and until someone tells me otherwise WITH PROOF, I am going with that.... I have proof. (Clevelenad Plain Dealer, News Herald, and a few customers that I allowed to walk through to check out our operation).

If you can do it at 1/4 of the cost with American liquid, please do tell. That's less than it costs me! You do know that companies have to incur costs to do the labor of filling, plugging, heat sealing, boxing and shipping though, right? As well as customer service, insurance, gas electric etc. I mean, I am not sitting on the couch watching The Office reruns and filling cartridges lol, I'm on The Couch watching TiVoed office reruns while eating Stacy's Everything bagel chips...lol.

Before our employees even start filling it costs $10 just to prep them for work...... Purel their hands and wrists, booties for their feet, bouffants for their hair, surgical masks, tyvek suits....and then after they go on break you gotta do it all over again....

Alot of people want quality, but they have no concept on any level what that quality costs. They just know that they can go online and buy bottles of liquid for x amount of dollars and anything over x is a supplier ripping you off....simply not true.

Glad to hear you pay the shipping costs for items returned under warranty. That surprises me.

As far as quality, you charge $22 for a battery and $20 for an atomizer. I've had standard 510 batteries and atomizers last me months with no problems whatsoever, for a fraction of that cost. They were covered by a 6 month warranty.

Customer service. We are talking about a battery and a cartomizer. What kind of troubleshooting and faulty component issues can we possibly be dealing with. Everywhere I've ever bought from just sends a new one if something is wrong. Actually, I've never had anything wrong with anything I bought, so I've never had to test this policy. They must be pretty good quality too.

Innovation. To be honest, the uniqueness of your filling machine doesn't play a role in my decision to buy your product.

It's very easy to vape for 1/4 of what it would cost to vape with your product. You say your cartos hold .9ml I think. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and round that up to to 1ml. Let's say I'm using Halo juice, an American made juice which sells for $20 for 30 ml. That's medium to high priced for juice. 30 of your cartos, roughly the equivalent in juice, would cost $105. But, you say, that's just the juice cost and doesn't include the carto itself. That's true. So how much do other refillable cartos cost? I just went to a site at random, happened to be goodprophets. A 5 pack of empty 510 cartos is $8.99. The more you buy, the cheaper it is. Let's go with the $9 for 5 though. That's $1.80 each. As everyone knows, these can be refilled at least 5 times, so it would take roughly 6 of these to equal 30 of your cartos. So 6 times $1.80 equals $10.80, plus $20 for 30ml of juice equals $30.80. That's less than 1/3 your price. Add in the bloated price of your batteries and you're right around 1/4 the price. Plus you can get good juice cheaper than Halo. Many places sell 50ml bottles at a reduced rate too. I can buy a 150ml bottle of one of my favorite juices, Caramel Tobacco at BlueMist vaping for $30. That price absolutely blows yours out of the water, even if you only get 3 refills on a carto.

It's very easy to vape for 1/4 what it would cost with your stuff. Again, better make me fart rainbows.

 

[Sebastian]

Glad to hear you pay the shipping costs for items returned under warranty. That surprises me.

As far as quality, you charge $22 for a battery and $20 for an atomizer. I've had standard 510 batteries and atomizers last me months with no problems whatsoever, for a fraction of that cost. They were covered by a 6 month warranty.

Customer service. We are talking about a battery and a cartomizer. What kind of troubleshooting and faulty component issues can we possibly be dealing with. Everywhere I've ever bought from just sends a new one if something is wrong. Actually, I've never had anything wrong with anything I bought, so I've never had to test this policy. They must be pretty good quality too.

Innovation. To be honest, the uniqueness of your filling machine doesn't play a role in my decision to buy your product.

It's very easy to vape for 1/4 of what it would cost to vape with your product. You say your cartos hold .9ml I think. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and round that up to to 1ml. Let's say I'm using Halo juice, an American made juice which sells for $20 for 30 ml. That's medium to high priced for juice. 30 of your cartos, roughly the equivalent in juice, would cost $105. But, you say, that's just the juice cost and doesn't include the carto itself. That's true. So how much do other refillable cartos cost? I just went to a site at random, happened to be goodprophets. A 5 pack of empty 510 cartos is $8.99. The more you buy, the cheaper it is. Let's go with the $9 for 5 though. That's $1.80 each. As everyone knows, these can be refilled at least 5 times, so it would take roughly 6 of these to equal 30 of your cartos. So 6 times $1.80 equals $10.80, plus $20 for 30ml of juice equals $30.80. That's less than 1/3 your price. Add in the bloated price of your batteries and you're right around 1/4 the price. Plus you can get good juice cheaper than Halo. Many places sell 50ml bottles at a reduced rate too. I can buy a 150ml bottle of one of my favorite juices, Caramel Tobacco at BlueMist vaping for $30. That price absolutely blows yours out of the water, even if you only get 3 refills on a carto.

It's very easy to vape for 1/4 what it would cost with your stuff. Again, better make me fart rainbows.

Well I'm glad some component of the lifetime warranty is up to snuff. As far as the rest, I don't know enough about those juices to make a comment (not gonna make a comment about something I don't know about ). At any rate, if you are getting a great deal, and you are happy, that's the most important thing. People who try our new Eagle Edition are quite pleased. And, like I said, I believe it has, at least in part, to do with our cart filling process. I would certainly be interested in what ingredients are in their product and the testing of their product. I have one study right on our website for you to check out. Gotta get to sleep, big and early day tomorrow.

Happy vaping!

 

[LynGBH]

LynGBH,
OK how many puffs equal a cigarette, or how long are those puffs, and how much nicotine, and how much vapor? Please quantify it because I believe it to be a mixture of the number of puffs combined with nicotine ingestion. It's clearly stated, on our website that you referenced, because I agree that the quantifying comparison of e-cigs to regular cigs is a bit of a gray area. My equation is cut and dry. You can't disagree with the numbers. The numbers equate to the assertion.

Now if you disagree with the assertion (the assertion being that a nicotine fix is the goal of the product), that's a different story altogether. But that's the great thing about the e-cig industry. You can go with someone like me that is going to try to do the right thing and give the right information, bash them, and I will just keep chugging along and rebutting with sound facts and evidence in quantifiable numbers.

The 'assertion' I am talking about is the belief, and the belief of pretty much everyone IN THE WORLD, that smokers are addicted to nicotine and using an e-cig to get that nicotine 'fix' (whether they want to eliminate that or diminish that fix is a matter of choice). Vapor production and the hand to mouth 'habit' are secondary stimuli to that nicotine 'assertion'. I can't make it any clearer than that.

Thanks for your comment, it gives me an opportunity to explain the numbers so people can really think of them from a utilitarianistic point of view and make their own rationale based on the aforementioned information! Happy Vaping!

Mmm-hmm. Whatever you say.

 

[BengalBacker]

I'll stop now. Obviously you are marketing to a different demographic than the hard core vapers who visit these forums. You are right, there are a lot of people who just want "easy". Honestly, good luck filling that market niche, the more people who vape, the better for all of us. I just think it would be wise to tone down the stuff that makes it seem like you could be targeting and taking advantage of the naive. Just my opinion, don't sue me.

Good luck with your business.

 

[t9c]

I'll stop now. Obviously you are marketing to a different demographic than the hard core vapers who visit these forums. You are right, there are a lot of people who just want "easy". Honestly, good luck filling that market niche, the more people who vape, the better for all of us. I just think it would be wise to tone down the stuff that makes it seem like you could be targeting and taking advantage of the naive. Just my opinion, don't sue me.

Good luck with your business.

Looks like I wasn't too far off the mark with my first post after all? I don't mind apologizing to litigious threatening types though - In the court of public opinion, they usually end up up hanging themselves anyway. Ain't no different here. As for the litigious poster's clientele - see ya'll in the Newbies Forum!

 

[Sebastian]

LynGBH,
Thanks. Your answer, to some degree, shows me that it's a difficult to quantify that number. Most companies, that make claims of equivalency just say '1 cartridge is equal to this many cigarettes', however, when I post my claim of equivalency, I CLEARLY state the equation. Additionally, I could get into the whole 'mind over matter' aspect of how an e-cig doesn't burn down to the .... and because of this, people who get their 'fix' after 3-4 drags will put the e-cig back in their pocket, and actually get MORE out of a cartridge, but I'm certain some would also find holes in that logic as well.

Bengal,
It is virtually impossible to please hard core vapers with a branded mini. It's akin to trying to please someone who rolls their own cigarettes with a pack of camels. These are two distinctly different markets, and we are entirely fine with that. Roll your own people certainly would not enjoy Fire Safety Cigarette paper, nor would they enjoy the cut or make up of camels tobacco or any chemicals they might add... heck they probably wouldn't even like the density of how the cigarette was filled (as that would have an effect on how quickly it would burn). As you can see there are many 'Roll Your Own' type vapers here, but I am not one of them.

Many of our customers are very well aware that they can save some money if they go through the extraodinary hassle of taking apart your carts, cleaning them, refilling them, and putting them back together. But this does take time, and to ME time is money. If a customer's sole reason for switching to e-cigs is economical, then vaper geeks have a good case in using mods and dripping etc. However, my time is worth more to me than to go through that every day hassle. I like the convenience of opening a LS box lid, popping the cart out of the bag and putting it on.

I'm in total agreement that the more people who vape the better. I certainly am not targeting the naive. Most of our customers just don't want to deal with it. Some have hectic lives and trust our brand... and most of the elderly clientele, who are still saving money using a prefilled cart, don't have the dexterity to drip liquid into a small hole.

Thank you for the well wishes and good luck to you.

 

[Sebastian]

Looks like I wasn't too far off the mark with my first post after all? I don't mind apologizing to litigious threatening types though - In the court of public opinion, they usually end up up hanging themselves anyway. Ain't no different here. As for the litigious poster's clientele - see ya'll in the Newbies Forum!

T9c,
You said 'unfounded claims'. I was more than willing to help clear anything up that you thought to be obscure. I think I managed to do so throughout this thread. As for the 'newbies' jab, I will take it with a grain of salt. Please refer to the post previous to this that was in response to Bengal.

Thanks and happy vaping.

 

[rothenbj]

Plus it's important to understand that Yugo "Invented" the automobile. Sorry Sebastion, but when i read your post, that was the first thing that hit my mind.

 

[kristin]

People need to remember that the vast majority of people using e-cigarettes use prefilled minis and don't come to forums. They are perfectly happy with their purchase. Those who are unhappy seek out forums or just go back to smoking.

In Sebastian's defense, I can't recall too many people coming here complaining that they bought LibertyStiks. Blu - yes. Smokng Everywhere - yes. So, he is obviously making most of his customers happy. There are a lot of kiosk owners who can tell the same story - happy, repeat customers. They resent being portrayed as uncaring scoundrals. I've spoken to a few and they do care about their customers and stand behind their product.

Some people buy tomatoes, do the work and add their own spices to make tasty, affordable spaghetti sauce. Others are perfectly happy buying Newman's Own and paying more. We don't see the Newman's Own company getting reamed for "gouging" customers and providing an inferior product compared to homemade sauce. Heck, people don't even blame Ragu for the crap they sell. To each his own.

I started my mom on a 510 and it was too much hassle for her. Maybe she'd still be vaping if I got her a basic mini - especially one with return service like LibertyStiks.

So, let's keep it in persepective. We are an exclusive community here and by no means represent the majority of vapers.

 

[Nagios]

Who's got the bucket of popcorn? This is getting good

 

[Sebastian]

Kristin,
Thank you very much. I appreciate that. I would like think that our service is pretty good and I would guess that most of our wholesale accounts would share that sentiment. Likewise, I never hear any complaints about you so you must be doing the right thing too!

Although..... I hope Liberty Stix is not a Ragu or a Newman's Own. I'd like to think of LS as a Magggiano's, maybe not the cheapest but definitely very tasty and satisfying.....