Church?

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Vapor Pete

The Vapor Pope
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Mar 14, 2009
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Also, Max.... I too have a social group... I wonder if you can help me:
It says I have join requests, but I cannot find where to accept them, I cant even see who they are?? Any ideas? ( Its Athiest Vapers... and you too are free to join my friend:))
Thanks,
My best,
-VP

Nevermind Max...I figured it out bro! And btw, in case your interested,


http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/for...st-vapers.html

My best,
-VP
 

Kwiq Niss

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Apr 24, 2009
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I really am wondering why the neglect to respond to my breakdown of your post Kwiq? And again, not picking a fight, but I have asked for non-biblical references to your "true science", and "truths"... and you give none, but restate you have them? And I can only assume that your reference to creation/evo being debunked, has been done so by the likes of Lee Stobel. I have pointed out some books from unbiased scientists for you to research. Have you done so?
My best,
-VP
Josephus is one historian that mentions Jesus and his performing miracles
The Cambrian explosion was a short period of time where most of today's primates appeared suddenly with no fossils found that can support macroevolution. Their are no links from these species to previously existing species, and the time span is short. Their are very good fossil records from this time frame, shortly before, and shortly after. This is unexplainable without accepting intervention.
Lee Strobel makes no claims of his own. He has only conducted several interviews of scientists and compiles those interviews in books. He gives references to studies from both sides.
I have read many of the studies from both sides, and was open for a long time, but the evidence really has pointed me in the direction of God, His son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
The evidence still requires faith, but much less faith than would be required for me to be atheist. Just as you can have "faith" that someone has car keys in their pocket when they walk to their car and, reach in their pocket and all of a sudden their car lights flash and horn sounds.
Now if that person pulled their keys out of their pocket and showed them to you, it would not require faith to believe that they actually had keys in their pocket, but the evidence that a creator exists is similar to this. Similar historical evidence exists that Jesus is real, and was actually who he said he was.
In addition to that, I have personally experienced Him and can say that I am now certain that He is real, and I will pray to Him regarding you as I would any other person I've met in my life.
Please keep an open mind, as no one has or can prove that He is not real. Allow yourself to accept the possibility, and perhaps one day check into it for yourself.
May God bless you so that you may be a blessing to others.
 
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Vapor Pete

The Vapor Pope
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Josephus is one historian that mentions Jesus and his performing miracles

Without further research, or going back through the books, I believe Josephus was the ONLY historian of his time to mention Jesus. In fact, I further believe, it has been proven to be a hox. In that a statement was made about Jesus, and later found to be added after Josephus's death.


The Cambrian explosion was a short period of time where most of today's primates appeared suddenly with no fossils found that can support macroevolution. Their are no links from these species to previously existing species, and the time span is short. Their are very good fossil records from this time frame, shortly before, and shortly after. This is unexplainable without accepting intervention.

I think you are referring to "the missinglink" debate here. Not sure. But I have not heard of the name you call it by. Further research would need to be done by me to speak to it. But again, just because science hasnt put a theory to something, or admits there are further questions to be answered, does not require anyone to fill in that gap with the supernatural. It may be unexplainable at this point, but so are UFO's.

Lee Strobel makes no claims of his own. He has only conducted several interviews of scientists and compiles those interviews in books. He gives references to studies from both sides.

As I mentioned before, Mr Strobel is a christian. So his books start under the presumption he is right. And end up with him being right.

I have read many of the studies from both sides, and was open for a long time, but the evidence really has pointed me in the direction of God, His son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

And I would not take that away from you. I hope it helps you in your life.

The evidence still requires faith, but much less faith than would be required for me to be atheist.

Again my dear friend... christianity REQUIRES you to have faith. Atheism is the dismissal of faith, lack of faith, or other irrational presumptions. It is simply having no faith. You dont need to have faith that there is nothing to have faith in, in order to not have faith.


Just as you can have "faith" that someone has car keys in their pocket when they walk to their car and, reach in their pocket and all of a sudden their car lights flash and horn sounds.
Now if that person pulled their keys out of their pocket and showed them to you, it would not require faith to believe that they actually had keys in their pocket, but the evidence that a creator exists is similar to this. Similar historical evidence exists that Jesus is real, and was actually who he said he was.

Lost me on this one. I couldnt care less whats in someones pockets. But anyway, to your last point... there is also a LACK of historical evidence saying Jesus lived. Such as the fact that there are no other non biblical accounts of this man from anyone, including the Roman Empires own records.

In addition to that, I have personally experienced Him and can say that I am now certain that He is real, and I will pray to Him regarding you as I would any other person I've met in my life.

If I say I personally experienced the rock gnomes in my back yard, would you believe me? Again, I wont take it away from you. But I can come up with dozens of explanations to your experiences. And as I've asked Max not to do, I will ask you not to pray for me. Its rude, and it insinuates you have a special connection to something that I am unable to obtain if I so desired.


Please keep an open mind, as no one has or can prove that He is not real. Allow yourself to accept the possibility,

I have an open mind my friend, its called free thought inquiry, reason, rationalism and science.


and perhaps one day check into it for yourself.
May God bless you so that you may be a blessing to others.

lol...have you read anything I've said?? It should be painfully clear that I've looked into it;) ... Oh yeah, I waiting to hear how you like the books you asked about... are they making sense to you?

My best,
-VP
 

Kwiq Niss

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Apr 24, 2009
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Vapor Pete,
I don't know if I will be able to accept that anyone has made an informed decision to be atheist without having atleast read The case for a Creator. There are many other books I've read on this subject, but none that were so well put together, and built upon as this one. I've read studies and books from both sides, and if after reading this, you still feel the same way I would be more willing to accept that you've made an educated decision to put you're faith in atheism rather than the true and loving God.
 
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taukimada

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im stunned...

i mean... REALLY i am...

i am stunned that it has been a month and this thread has been regurgitated like some foul...well.. fowl eaten two weeks after thansgiving

this thread went to crap a very long time ago... i will say.. at least there's some decent debategoingin the rehash.. but still.........

anyways.. i just wanted to say what i just said.. that's it... oh wait.. one more thing..

Pete.. i LOVE you arguments... it would take too much time for me to formulate my thoughts to put them thewayyou have... but i must differ with you on ONE point..

a christian has faith that there is a god... no proof needed...
an atheist has faith that there is no god... no proof needed..
it is the agnostic who needs proof... and thusly is the only one of the three truly lacking faith

<-- Faithless
 

Vapor Pete

The Vapor Pope
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Mar 14, 2009
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Kate.. not sure what your getting at. But, in all the reading/research I've done, in regards to Atheist/Theist beliefs, it is generally accepted that the Theist requires "faith" in order to further the idea of a god. An Atheist rejects the idea of a god, thus rejecting the need and/or requirment for said faith. Thats where Im getting the argument that an Atheist needs no "faith" to be an Atheist. Its all in the context of faith meaning religious faith. Hope that clears it up.
My best,
-VP
 

Vapor Pete

The Vapor Pope
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Vapor Pete,
I don't know if I will be able to accept that anyone has made an informed decision to be atheist without having atleast read The case for a Creator. There are many other books I've read on this subject, but none that were so well put together, and built upon as this one. I've read studies and books from both sides, and if after reading this, you still feel the same way I would be more willing to accept that you've made an educated decision to put you're faith in atheism rather than the true and loving God.

Well, now you can accept it my friend! Im living proof. I think you should be willing to accept that I've made a VERY educated decision based on the things I've told you, and the answers I've given you. With all due respect, I cannot take you up on your offer, because I've made several counter offers, and you've ignored them. Annnd again, to be an Atheist requires no faith... its a rejection of it.:D
My best,
-VP
 

Vapor Pete

The Vapor Pope
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a christian has faith that there is a god... no proof needed...
an atheist has faith that there is no god... no proof needed..
it is the agnostic who needs proof... and thusly is the only one of the three truly lacking faith

<-- Faithless

Hummmm...good point. I guess what Im saying is that the word faith in the context of this discussion presupposes that there is a god. I would also contend that the religious person has faith that there is a god, not because there is no proof needed, but because he has no proof... theres no other choice. And I stand my the statement that an Atheist rejects the notion of a god, conversley rejecting "faith". read my respones to the other posters, maybe its clearer. And thank you for you kind words.
My best,
-VP
 

Kate

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Jun 26, 2008
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Hi Pete. I wasn't really trying to make a point except that maybe a definition of faith would be handy so everyone was using the same language.

As far as belief and faith is concerned, I tried to find something I could believe and have faith in for many years, I looked hard and long. It was distressing to me that nothing had any meaning until I realised that it's not finding faith or truth that's important for me but how I go about getting there.

I like to keep my karma polished, not because I believe in reincarnation but because it seems a sound principal for leading a happy, healthy life. It's the nearest to a true, reliable, consistent philosophy for me.

Anything else is Santa for grown ups as far as I'm concerned. I do have a lot of respect for people who find comfort in spiritual matters and religion but none of it really rings true for me.

The only divinity I've found is in everyday things like good people (and cats ;)). Ethics are far more valuable than religious doctrine to me.

So I don't know if that means I have faith or not. I believe that it's important to be the best person you can be, I believe that ethics are important codes for us all to understand and be guided by, I believe that if anything is divine it's the good things and beings in the world.
 

Vapor Pete

The Vapor Pope
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Rochester, NY
Hi Pete. I wasn't really trying to make a point except that maybe a definition of faith would be handy so everyone was using the same language.

As far as belief and faith is concerned, I tried to find something I could believe and have faith in for many years, I looked hard and long. It was distressing to me that nothing had any meaning until I realised that it's not finding faith or truth that's important for me but how I go about getting there.

I like to keep my karma polished, not because I believe in reincarnation but because it seems a sound principal for leading a happy, healthy life. It's the nearest to a true, reliable, consistent philosophy for me.

Anything else is Santa for grown ups as far as I'm concerned. I do have a lot of respect for people who find comfort in spiritual matters and religion but none of it really rings true for me.

The only divinity I've found is in everyday things like good people (and cats ;)). Ethics are far more valuable than religious doctrine to me.

So I don't know if that means I have faith or not. I believe that it's important to be the best person you can be, I believe that ethics are important codes for us all to understand and be guided by, I believe that if anything is divine it's the good things and beings in the world.

Hi kate,
I agree with the point that a definition of faith should be brought forth so we are all on the same page. I've done so a couple posts back:D. From what you are saying, your beliefs seem to fall under humanism. Also, you may want to look into Unitarian Universalism. I was searching just like you were and came across it. Its a wonderful religious home to those of all persuasions. My wife and I are both members of a large UU Church here with an excess of 325 members. Maybe you've heard of it, maybe not. Either way, its a place to go and do ya thing!!:cool: (religiously of course;))
I like your take on things and I think we may agree on many points. vape on sister!
My best,
-VP
 

Vapor Pete

The Vapor Pope
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Mar 14, 2009
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Rochester, NY
Hey Pete,

I was up at Rochester riding last year. Next time I'm up there we'll ride!

WARNING: My bike is known for setting off car alarms.

I will be at Americade this year.

Time for me to bounce off this thread.

My best to everyone.

If you bouncing off the thread, you may not get this. But Let me know when you'll be up here! And also... my Dad was born and raised in Bay Shore... small world huh! lol
My best,
-VP
 

OutWest

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Max, that could be highly debated about animals. It is a notion more personal than provable, so its your own ascertion. Many believe their pets have souls, and many have claimed to see the ghosts of their deceased pets. Apes choose things on a DAILY basis... I know what your saying bro, Im just pointing out that its subject to objection.
I normally stay out of religious discussions, but that is one thing that has bothered me ever since hearing it as a small child (the people have souls but animals dont, bit). Animals show affection, dislike, anger, other emotions, and intelligence all the time.

One day my cat and I got into a battle of wills. (I dont remember what it was over). He got mad at me, and stormed out of the kitchen and down the hallway. I followed, peering around the corners to watch him. He went into the bathroom and stood next to some dirty clothes of mine, looking at the clothing with a P.O'd look on his face and then turning to the litter box with a "but I really should..." look on his face. Bath and forth he looked, debating about what to do. After a bit I made my presence known by stepping into the doorway and saying nicely to him "whatcha doing?" He then walked over to his litterbox to urinate in it. And, I swear he even sighed with resignation before doing so.

Like a child, he was mad and really wanted to punish me for not getting his way, but felt torn because he knew it would be wrong. Intelligent? Yes. Able to make a decision between right and wrong? Yes. Does that mean he has a soul? I dont know, but the notion shouldnt be so readily dismissed imho.

Okay, back to your regularly scheduled program ;)
 
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