Church?

[Kwiq Niss]

I have been disrespected by Christians several times just when I stated my beliefs. I don't mean to be rude but Christians are constantly ridiculed by people who are atheist/agnostic. A lot of what you say is completely outrageous and creates a stigma that makes Christianity look very unappealing. (knight is a prime example of what a good Christian is)
Don't mean to offend anyone it's just that when you don't believe in god and someone suggests that you should vape the blood of Christ, that it's freakin HILARIOUS!

I don't mean any disrespect, but you were offended by people. I have offended many, as I'm sure everyone here has. I mean no offense, but we are all flawed, and someone must speak out for what they believe. The only thing I'm trying to point out is that there is evidence, and it would be hasty to make any decision without some facts. And if one person reads this with an open mind and accepts my challenge, it will have been worth posting this.
I believe Paul was a good Christian, if there is any such thing, as Christ himself was the only one that was ever truly, completely good. I'm not comparing myself to him, there is no comparison, but if you think I'm boisterous about my beliefs, you should read the book of Acts and Romans, and... well nearly the whole new testament. Paul and Jesus spoke of what they knew, as did the prophets. I don't think pointing out what I know to be fact, in a factual way, makes me in any way a bad Christian, or creates a stigma.
Have you ever had anything that you believed in, that if you heard some one bash it, you would speak out about what you know. What would you do if you were in a chat with a congressman who was bashing the e-cig?
May I ask what it was that I said that was so outrageous?

 

[Zben504]

I don't mean any disrespect, but you were offended by people. I have offended many, as I'm sure everyone here has. I mean no offense, but we are all flawed, and someone must speak out for what they believe. The only thing I'm trying to point out is that there is evidence, and it would be hasty to make any decision without some facts. And if one person reads this with an open mind and accepts my challenge, it will have been worth posting this.
I believe Paul was a good Christian, if there is any such thing, as Christ himself was the only one that was ever truly, completely good. I'm not comparing myself to him, there is no comparison, but if you think I'm boisterous about my beliefs, you should read the book of Acts and Romans, and... well nearly the whole new testament. Paul and Jesus spoke of what they knew, as did the prophets. I don't think pointing out what I know to be fact, in a factual way, makes me in any way a bad Christian, or creates a stigma.
Have you ever had anything that you believed in, that if you heard some one bash it, you would speak out about what you know. What would you do if you were in a chat with a congressman who was bashing the e-cig?
May I ask what it was that I said that was so outrageous?

That wasn't directed at any one person, just most Christians. You obviously aren't like 90% of them.

 

[Vapor Pete]

Ok, lets see if I can answere you:

Having the knowledge of the scientific fields that are discussed in these books, it would take more faith to be an atheist than a Chistian.

Please refer back to what I said, Atheism is a denial of faith, religion requires faith. So with all due respect, your statement is incorrect.

This is science. It does not require disregarding science to have faith.

What is science? If a scientist turns to faith, he must, by default, disregard his scientific mind and replace it with irrationality. You cannot have both.

The science actually backs up the belief.

If science backs up anything... it backs up science.

These are educated men interviewed here. Real studies, real facts, real science.

Educated men being interviewed does not help your case. I still am not sure of the "facts" you speak of, and it most definatly is not real science.

Men who had different opinions completely, one sided in the opposite direction, whose beliefs were turned upside down by their findings. You say these books are one-sided, and they're not. Quite the opposite I'd say.

Point taken on this. Except that I will restate my statement from before:
If their beliefs were turned upside down by "findings", then they relinquished their critical mind, for irrationality. Its not a put down... its a fact, only because the two cannot reside together. And by one-sided, I mean if Lee Strobel (a christian) interviews a former scientist turned christian, to back up christian doctrin or faith, only to arrive at christianity... thats very one sided. Not the opposite, I'd say.

Real science requires testability and observability.

You are absolutly correct on that. Which is why it is religions biggest adversary. Im very surprised that you would bring up real science.

If this were some one sided book that wasn't challenging and didn't contain perspective from both sides, it would mean nothing. Check it out...

I've already discussed how it's one sided. As for checking it out... well I proposed to you, to read one of the books I can suggest. And in true christain conversation, you have dismissed my suggestion, stated your case again.. and asked me to read your books again.

Darwin himself said if such a thing as irreducible complexity were ever discovered, the theory of macro-evolution would fall flat on its face. Without intervention, how do you explain the Cambrian explosion.

Im not much of a Darwin scholar, so excuse me if I cannot speak to that. However, Dawkins makes some excellent points, scientifically speaking, to I.C. The Cambrian Exp, I've never heard of.

How do you explain the "design" of dna, this is information encoding

It does not need to be explained with a "design". Unless you are a christian.

How do you explain that their was once nothing, nothing at all physical, and then all of a sudden something went boom. What could've gone boom if there was nothing physical and nothing to interact, unless there is something not subject to either time, or physics.

I dont have a personal answer for you on this. But just because I cant answere you, doesnt mean that filling in my unknowns with supernatural mumbo jumbo makes it offically GOD.

If you don't believe in the Big Bang, then how do you explain that anything physical could possibly exist for an infinite amount of time.
How do you explain out of body experiences.
How can you explain the perfect balance of gravity (not just on earth, but the gravity of the universe), helium to hydrogen conversion, and the other micro-tuned to infinitesimal accuracy balance of all things in the universe.

Refer to my statement above. Also I am to assume you cant explain these things either... so you have chosen to fill in that lack of knowledge with unreasonable, untestable, unprovable faith. Im not saying you are bad for that. Im just saying its irrational.

How can you explain 3rd party accounts, from atheist historians that state very clearly that Jesus performed miracles.

Please refer me to unbiblical resources that make the claim you just did.
The historians that lived in the time of the supossed jesus, never spoke of him.

How do you explain morals, the general knowledge of right and wrong.

Very simple. Any animal that lives in a society, and depends on eachother to a degree, has an ingrained sense of right and wrong. Gorillas know that they should not kill their groups head. They recognize the need to have a leader. To do so would be wrong. Has it happened? Sure! Just like people murder people. In humans, these things can be taught. My 4 year old knows its wrong to bite... not because she has a belief in a god, its because I taught her its wrong.

Unless you can answer all of these questions better than the leading scientists in each of these fields (as well as several others),

I think I did pretty good here... but If I wanted to completely answer with certainty, the scientist I would go to would be Dawkins, since these things are his field. Furthermore, his field isnt presupposed that christianity is correct.

then you have faith in atheism

Atheism is NOT A FAITH!!! Lol!!

that is not based on knowledge,

The knowledge I have is WHY Im an Atheist, thank you.

or anything provable!

I am not under obligation to prove anything my dear friend. You are.

My best,
-VP

 

[Doctor Girlfriend]

Why am I having flashbacks to my time on Yahoo Answers in the R&S section? lol

Anyway, I liked your responses, Pete.

 

[Vapor Pete]

Why am I having flashbacks to my time on Yahoo Answers in the R&S section? lol

Anyway, I liked your responses, Pete.

Thanks doctor. Im glad you like the response, Im sure his reply wont be as short and concise as yours though. To me its all very simple.
My best,
-VP

 

[Blue Knight Max]

Ok, I think it's time for me to step in here

Let me begin with Vapor Pete.

Vapor Pete, as a man, has the God given right to choose the path he wishes to follow. God has given man a "soul" and with such a gift, we have the right to choose our own paths and beliefs. One can not compare animals to a man because animals do not have souls. Because they do not have souls, they do not "choose" but rather live life based on natural instincts.

For God to have faithful followers, he needs people that are willing to follow him whole heartly which requires faith. Faith is the belief in things that are not seen and faith comes by hearing the word of God.

If one chooses to not have faith and/or follow God, God still loves them and always will no matter what.

Like the story of the prodigal son, our father will be waiting for the day that his son returns. This holds true for all non-belivers. Whether or not they do return is totally up to them.

I do admire the open mindness of Vapor Pete and respect his position. However, I have to be real here, based on my beliefs and faith, I will pray that one day, he will come to the Lord. But, like I said before, it's totally up to him and if and when that ever does happen, God will love him just the same as he loves all others.

Vapor Pete, you look like one cool dude and I appreciate the fact that you did not use this forum to bash anyone or disrespect anyone of christian belief but rather kept your conversation going in a intellictual way. God Bless you dude.

For those Christians out there, there is no need to debate or argue with those that do not share the same beliefs. All one needs to do respect their positions/beliefs and pray and let God handle the rest. Jesus had run ins with many non-believers, and pretty much, he prayed for them. Follow his lead.

I'm sorry if I can't remember your user name but someone here mentioned that he/she does not go to church anymore. He/she also goes on to state that church is "man-made".

Well, the building itself is man-made but the Church is not. A "church" is a gathering of followers that gather for the purpose of worshipping God and hearing the word. If your belief is that a church is man-made and that's your reason why you don't go anymore, then do you believe that the bible is written by man and hence forth not worth reading? The only way to strengthen your faith is to hear the word of God. Your Spirit needs to be fed this bread. If your physical body goes without food for some time, it would naturally get weak. The same applies to your spiritual body. As your faith weakens, so does your beliefs.

I do not want to continue writting because I do not want to sound like I'm preaching or anything like that but I thank everyone for allowing me to put my 2 cents in.

I would like to extend an invitation to everyone browsing this thread who would like to gather with other christians or those who simply are seeking God or would like to know more about him to join my social group "Christian Vapors".

The group is moderated so you will need to request to join. I have to this date have not denied anyone looking to join so feel free to fellowship with us.

I look forward to seeing you there.

Max

 

[Blue Knight Max]

Oh I almost forgot, as far as doctrines.....

I do not want to disrespect anyone or any church that follows doctrine. Just for information purposes, not every church follows doctrine.

I belong to a non-denominational bible based church. Our teachings come straight out of the bible and not doctrine.

In the past, I have been a member of several doctirne based churches and have found that the church I currently attend works for me.

Max

 

[laynies]

IF I was in a church (rare event for me) I would not vape out of respect for the others there. It's not a matter of legality, it's about consideration. What benefit is there for disrupting the service?

 

[K-Sound Krew]

One can not compare animals to a man because animals do not have souls. Because they do not have souls, they do not "choose" but rather live life based on natural instincts.

Obviously you have never seen all dogs go to heaven

I actually preferred the sequel all cats go to hell

 

[Nuck]

If I was in a church it means I'm dead and some vegetation is about to get hit with a serious motherload of fertilizer.

 

[K-Sound Krew]

I don't believe in god but if I had to choose I would pick Dionysus and become a member of bacchus

I mean come on the entire religion is based on getting drunk, listening to music, watching a movie, and then when the girls get really wasted they start having a full on lesbian orgy

Now that's what I'm talking about

 

[ForHim]

This is an interesting thread...I've sat and read the whole thing this afternoon. I am a Christ follower, but that hasn't always been the case. I was a drug addict for 25 years and have done many shameful things as a result of my addiction. Ten years ago I did stumble through church doors looking for a way out of the life I was leading. I was embraced by the church and mentored with love and understanding. I am so grateful first to Jesus for the atonement of my sins and second to the people of the church for the support and love they have always shown me. God delivered me instantly from my addiction to drugs but I struggle to quit the analogs. I don't believe that analogs are sinful but I do feel that it is detrimental to my witness of Christ. I would never vape in the church. I'm not very eliquent and for that I apologize but Max you are awesome! I hope you are involved in some sort of outreach program because you have a God given talent. Anyway that's my 2 cents.

 

[benjamen.davis]

lol, vp, I dont necessarily line up with "your body is the temple" idea, I have tattoos, smoke, drink, and oh yeah, i am also one of the biggest christian hippocrites because i am fat (gluttony is expressly condemned in the bible, its listed pretty high up there if you believe there are levels of sin, which i dont) I'm not so much concerned with smoking being a sin, I just think being dependant on a drug instead of being able to rely on God shows a lacking somewhere in my walk with God.

as far as a debate with an atheist, those days are over. I've learned that the only thing i can do is love them, take them out for a few beers, play some halo, and just hope that they can realize that not all christians are the horrible monsters we're made out to be in modern society. Changing someones mind on a matter they hold so close to thier hearts isnt going to be done by throwing bible verses around, and in most case, probably wont happen no matter what you do. so like i said, I dont debate atheist anymore, but if you want go out to the bars and finish the night up with a friendly religous discussion at a hookah bar or coffee shop, count me in, but dont expect me to change my mind either, but i do LOVE hearing what drives people to their beliefs, be it christin, muslim, athiest, buddist or whatever.

anyways, all that being said, I hope someday you do accept God's love for you, but I'm certainly not gonna try to force it down your throat.

 

[Kwiq Niss]

I never meant to seem like or give the impression that I was trying to force anything on anyone. I just feel that some who speak on an "intelectual" level against Creationism and/or Christianity could benefit from educating themselves on the matter further because there is a lot of information available with modern science that points in the completely opposite direction from what science is portrayed to have found. Many of the leading studies that are used to lay the groundwork for evolution and creation alternatives have been completely debunked. If you're up for a challenge and want to know what real science says, please feel free so look further into this.
That is the last I will say about this, unless someone has questions, I will be more than happy to answer if you PM me or post here.
I'm glad to see this thread and look forward to the conversations that might spawn here.
Knight, can you PM me info on your group?
God bless.

 

[Blue Knight Max]

I never meant to seem like or give the impression that I was trying to force anything on anyone. I just feel that some who speak on an "intelectual" level against Creationism and/or Christianity could benefit from educating themselves on the matter further because there is a lot of information available with modern science that points in the completely opposite direction from what science is portrayed to have found. Many of the leading studies that are used to lay the groundwork for evolution and creation alternatives have been completely debunked. If you're up for a challenge and want to know what real science says, please feel free so look further into this.
That is the last I will say about this, unless someone has questions, I will be more than happy to answer if you PM me or post here.
I'm glad to see this thread and look forward to the conversations that might spawn here.
Knight, can you PM me info on your group?
God bless.

Your point is taken.

My thoughts are that science will never get to the point where it can prove everything with regards to our beliefs.

If so, then with all that science proving (or attempting to prove) the existence of God, Jesus etc, then where will faith be? Our beliefs are based on faith and without it, our beliefs will go into the science books as nothing but theory. We need faith because without it, we do not have hope.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing your point, these are just my thoughts.

We can continue this conversation over at the social group page if you want. I do not want to take this thread off topic.

Back on Target....

I would not vape in a church. Why? I chose not to. that's all.

 

[Zben504]

lol, vp, I dont necessarily line up with "your body is the temple" idea, I have tattoos, smoke, drink, and oh yeah, i am also one of the biggest christian hippocrites because i am fat (gluttony is expressly condemned in the bible, its listed pretty high up there if you believe there are levels of sin, which i dont) I'm not so much concerned with smoking being a sin, I just think being dependant on a drug instead of being able to rely on God shows a lacking somewhere in my walk with God.

as far as a debate with an atheist, those days are over. I've learned that the only thing i can do is love them, take them out for a few beers, play some halo, and just hope that they can realize that not all christians are the horrible monsters we're made out to be in modern society. Changing someones mind on a matter they hold so close to thier hearts isnt going to be done by throwing bible verses around, and in most case, probably wont happen no matter what you do. so like i said, I dont debate atheist anymore, but if you want go out to the bars and finish the night up with a friendly religous discussion at a hookah bar or coffee shop, count me in, but dont expect me to change my mind either, but i do LOVE hearing what drives people to their beliefs, be it christin, muslim, athiest, buddist or whatever.

anyways, all that being said, I hope someday you do accept God's love for you, but I'm certainly not gonna try to force it down your throat.

If every Christian thought the way you do the world would be a better place.

 

[Vapor Pete]

lol, vp, I dont necessarily line up with "your body is the temple" idea, I have tattoos, smoke, drink, and oh yeah, i am also one of the biggest christian hippocrites because i am fat (gluttony is expressly condemned in the bible, its listed pretty high up there if you believe there are levels of sin, which i dont) I'm not so much concerned with smoking being a sin, I just think being dependant on a drug instead of being able to rely on God shows a lacking somewhere in my walk with God.

Ok, I understand. I really want to get technical with you here. But I wont.

as far as a debate with an atheist, those days are over. I've learned that the only thing i can do is love them, take them out for a few beers, play some halo, and just hope that they can realize that not all christians are the horrible monsters we're made out to be in modern society. Changing someones mind on a matter they hold so close to thier hearts isnt going to be done by throwing bible verses around, and in most case, probably wont happen no matter what you do. so like i said, I dont debate atheist anymore, but if you want go out to the bars and finish the night up with a friendly religous discussion at a hookah bar or coffee shop, count me in, but dont expect me to change my mind either, but i do LOVE hearing what drives people to their beliefs, be it christin, muslim, athiest, buddist or whatever.

I couldnt be happier. Very comendable.

anyways, all that being said, I hope someday you do accept God's love for you, but I'm certainly not gonna try to force it down your throat.

I can only say thank you, but I must add... I cannot accept anything from something I cannot believe in. But you, and BlueKnight... are two of the most upstanding christians I have come across. Thanks for being honest... both of you.
My best,
-VP

 

[Vapor Pete]

I never meant to seem like or give the impression that I was trying to force anything on anyone. I just feel that some who speak on an "intelectual" level against Creationism and/or Christianity could benefit from educating themselves on the matter further because there is a lot of information available with modern science that points in the completely opposite direction from what science is portrayed to have found. Many of the leading studies that are used to lay the groundwork for evolution and creation alternatives have been completely debunked. If you're up for a challenge and want to know what real science says, please feel free so look further into this.
That is the last I will say about this, unless someone has questions, I will be more than happy to answer if you PM me or post here.
I'm glad to see this thread and look forward to the conversations that might spawn here.
Knight, can you PM me info on your group?
God bless.

I really am wondering why the neglect to respond to my breakdown of your post Kwiq? And again, not picking a fight, but I have asked for non-biblical references to your "true science", and "truths"... and you give none, but restate you have them? And I can only assume that your reference to creation/evo being debunked, has been done so by the likes of Lee Stobel. I have pointed out some books from unbiased scientists for you to research. Have you done so?
My best,
-VP

 

[Vapor Pete]

Ok, I think it's time for me to step in here

Let me begin with Vapor Pete.

Vapor Pete, as a man, has the God given right to choose the path he wishes to follow. God has given man a "soul" and with such a gift, we have the right to choose our own paths and beliefs. One can not compare animals to a man because animals do not have souls. Because they do not have souls, they do not "choose" but rather live life based on natural instincts.

Max, that could be highly debated about animals. It is a notion more personal than provable, so its your own ascertion. Many believe their pets have souls, and many have claimed to see the ghosts of their deceased pets. Apes choose things on a DAILY basis... I know what your saying bro, Im just pointing out that its subject to objection.

I do admire the open mindness of Vapor Pete and respect his position. However, I have to be real here, based on my beliefs and faith, I will pray that one day, he will come to the Lord. But, like I said before, it's totally up to him and if and when that ever does happen, God will love him just the same as he loves all others.

I admire you as well Max. With all due respect, please do not pray for me. It alludes that you have a higher connection to something, making you more important. If I want to pray to something, I can do it myself. And I can gaurantee no amount of praying for me is going to make me turn to the lord. For one... I wouldnt know which one to go to!

Vapor Pete, you look like one cool dude and I appreciate the fact that you did not use this forum to bash anyone or disrespect anyone of christian belief but rather kept your conversation going in a intellictual way. God Bless you dude.

Max, it is ditto for me. Please do not take my comments here to you offensivley. I would not bash someone. I cant say that I havent, or dont want to sometimes... but maturaty and life experience tend to lead me in an opposite direction. If I feel bashed, I will stand up. As you would. I would proudly vape with you, or ride next to you, any day bro! (Just remember.... I dont need god to bless me)
My VERY best to you,
-VP

 

[Vapor Pete]

Also, Max.... I too have a social group... I wonder if you can help me:
It says I have join requests, but I cannot find where to accept them, I cant even see who they are?? Any ideas? ( Its Athiest Vapers... and you too are free to join my friend)
Thanks,
My best,
-VP