Kent - gotcha on all points (esp. the "hooking" thing) and thank you. I'm in the middle of a lot of rethinking my own terms, and should prolly just shut up 
FDA cliff notes on fda?
- Thread starter bace a flunt
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
Kent - gotcha on all points (esp. the "hooking" thing) and thank you. I'm in the middle of a lot of rethinking my own terms, and should prolly just shut up
Don't shut up.... I encourage free expression - it's how we all learn things
wait, they released an opinion last april, when does any of this get voted on or come into effect or anything?
Opinions vary on that. 'Summer of 2015' might find another decision. But there's been a wrench thrown in the gears.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...hering-date-april-2014-time-final-rule-3.html
Even IF a 'final rule' is reached - many are of the opinion that there will be a few years before full implementation, although a few things could hurt early on.
How soon until juice makers need clean rooms?
I only smoke NET's so hopefully they'll fall through the cracks as far as needing flavor approval.
I'm wondering im mom and pop b&m's will just get "clean boxes" with whatever hepa filtration and such is neccesary and throw those in the backYesterday, if they were smart
Not sure what that last means. But.... IF someone is unwilling to engage in the black market, then we shouldn't care about that. That's their decision and it should be respected.
What I'm not sure about is someone who would be willing but "unable" to engage in the black market. If you mean they are 'unable' because of their ethical considerations, then that really puts them in the 'unwilling' category.
If you mean that the black market prices would make them unable to participate, then those who do care about them, should be able to help them out, some, or they could find a creative way to make the exchange possible.
If you're just pushing the 'care' button, then disregard the above.
It may work for some, and not so much for others. It may even achieve the opposite - a bit like the save the children line.
Well, you've left out a whole group of people (I think the majority)- those who would WANT to buy off the black market, but have no idea how to do it, and/or how to do it safely. If you spend any time reading the SG Vapers forum, that's exactly the position they're in.
I would have no idea where to even start looking if I wanted to buy some moonshine, for example. I'm pretty sure it's widely available (not so much here in the northeast, though) but I don't have the foggiest idea how to even go about finding some if I wanted to. Likewise if I wanted to buy a handgun without going through official paperwork. I'm positive it's doable, but just as positive that I would have no idea how to go about it.
Fortunately, I don't have any interest in either of the above. But if vaping stuff went the same route, that would be a different story.
First, your anger at BT is misplaced - the 'BT hooked me on cigarettes' comment on another thread is likely why, from your viewpoint. But BT didn't "hook" you. You "hooked" you. Just like I 'hooked' me, and how others hooked themselves
Secondly, the FDA and the Tobacco Control group hates BT. The only reason it appears that BT and Big Government (BG) are in bed, is because after the Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement, BT has the Stockholm syndrome, and their 'agreement' with the FDA deeming (which is fading - the agreement, that is) is more 'don't hit me anymore' and the fact that they have their own ecigarette departments now and think that they can afford the cost of the deeming better than other ecig vendors especially IF the deeming goes as the FDA plans - they are correct about that.
BG has more to lose in revenues AND more importantly, they are in more control of things than BT or BP, although lobbying does help steer that control - BUT take away lobbying and the influence of campaign contributions and that will show you who actually has control - Government. And there are enough do-gooders and people who know what's best for you and me, in gov't, to where many would attempt to stop vaping regardless of any lobbying or campaign contributions. It is why some of them are in gov't. They couldn't have that amount of control in the private sector - most have mediocre intelligence at best and little ability to compete in a free market - they need the 'badge' of gov't to apply that type of control.
EXACTLY! They go into gov't so they can be fascist bullies and get away with it! This is exactly why I'm starting to think fondly of anarchy!
Andria
With the internet, those "willing and unable due to a lack of information" would learn quickly. Those not on the internet - would find someone who is
The main 'ingredient' is the 'willingness' and that will drive someone to get the right answers or at least some viable possibilities. IOW, find someone who knows more than oneself. It's likely how people found speakeasy's during prohibition.
Two of the 'book recommendations' on the other thread, were by anarcho-capitalists. But that doesn't mean I believe in anarchy - I still think the 'rule of law' - a police force to enforce it and the justice system to judge (along with a military but for defense rather than offense) is necessary to protect rights. The parts of those books that deal with free market solutions to health, disease, sewage, etc. etc. are some of the things that could be privatized and still maintain the level of safety (perhaps even higher) than we have now with agencies who serve business interests more than the consumer or taxpayer and are used by businesses to gain an advantage they wouldn't have if they were made to compete in the free market.
Under those conditions, private companies would have no incentive to use junk science, fear mongering, skewing statistics to their favor, etc. etc. when they would only remain in business against other competing business by providing the best product or service at the best price. And the media could return to being a 'watch dog' rather than a lapdog for gov't.
With the internet, those "willing and unable due to a lack of information" would learn quickly. Those not on the internet - would find someone who is
I guess I wish I lived in Ohio. Life must be so much simpler there.
Perhaps you should go onto the SG Vapers forum and tell all of them that the reason they're struggling to get vape gear is because they are either slow learners or just don't have the "willingness". I'm sure they could pass that info on to all their friends who aren't on the internet, and you would be doing a great service to an entire nation of vapers and would-be vapers.
"Willingness" is a prerequisite. If it's not there, like I said in the post you replied - it's not our business. I don't know 'SG vapers forum'. Is it in a country that has banned ecigs? And there is nothing that I said above to imply 'slow learning'. There's a difference between ignorance (absence of knowledge) and stupidity. I'm 'ignorant' about SG vapers forum
But with a quick search I could easily find out who they are. IOW, I'm not stupid. And if I couldn't find anything, I'd PM you and ask since you obviously know who they are. That's the type of thing I meant and thought I said. Why you want to turn that into something else, I have no clue. But I neither said they were unwilling nor stupid. As far as living in Ohio - I could help find you a gun.
Moonshine, you'd have to go a bit further south.
Last edited:
"Willingness" is a prerequisite. If it's not there, like I said in the post you replied - it's not our business. I don't know 'SG vapers forum'. Is it in a country that has banned ecigs? And there is nothing that I said above to imply 'slow learning'. There's a difference between ignorance (absence of knowledge) and stupidity. I'm 'ignorant' about SG vapers forum
As far as living in Ohio - I could help find you a gun.
SG Vapers is right here on ECF:
SG Vapers
(They're from Singapore, but don't tell anybody) Read through the rules of the forum, and it will give you some idea.
"Willingness" is not a binary choice, though. I would not be willing to place bets through bookies, not because I don't want to bet on games, but because I don't want to connect my wife and kids to the people who take those bets. I would not deal in stuff that's not mentioned here; although I could probably make a killing, it would never be worth the risk to my family. It's not at all the threat of the law, it's the threat from the other side that would deter me the most.
But I won't carry that argument further. Take a look at the posts in the SG forum, and you will see what it's like vaping in a country where everything has to come from the black market. The fear, the ripoffs, the crap merchandise being sold as premium, the lost money, the repercussions.
If it was about getting food, then "willingness" wouldn't be a question. But when it concerns vaping, ultimately it boils down to "how far will I go before deciding that cigarettes is the choice I will make instead of risking something more serious". If you really think this (emphasis added):
IF someone is unwilling to engage in the black market, then we shouldn't care about that. That's their decision and it should be respected.
Well, I have nothing to say about that. Let's just call it a difference of opinion and let it be, because I don't think there's any way we'll ever agree.
"Willingness" is a prerequisite. If it's not there, like I said in the post you replied - it's not our business. I don't know 'SG vapers forum'. Is it in a country that has banned ecigs? And there is nothing that I said above to imply 'slow learning'. There's a difference between ignorance (absence of knowledge) and stupidity. I'm 'ignorant' about SG vapers forum
As far as living in Ohio - I could help find you a gun.
ROFL!!! that's funny! I lived in a small rural town when I graduated from high school/turned 18 (the legal drinking age then). For years I thought a "bootlegger" was just someone who'd sell you beer on Sunday -- for twice the price you could buy it any other day!
Now we have "Sunday sales" here, so I guess that kind of bootlegger is just a historical artifact.
My husband is from Missouri, and he talks about drinking "shine," back in the day, but to the best of my knowledge, I've never encountered any down here, and I did some serious drinking... back in the day.
Andria
twgbonehead:14931709]SG Vapers is right here on ECF:
SG Vapers
(They're from Singapore, but don't tell anybody) Read through the rules of the forum, and it will give you some idea.
Thanks. I'll check it out. I don't 'roam' around here as much as I did earlier. (for various reasons).
"Willingness" is not a binary choice, though. I would not be willing to place bets through bookies, not because I don't want to bet on games, but because I don't want to connect my wife and kids to the people who take those bets. I would not deal in stuff that's not mentioned here; although I could probably make a killing, it would never be worth the risk to my family. It's not at all the threat of the law, it's the threat from the other side that would deter me the most.
I disagree. As I posted to DC2: "If you mean they are 'unable' because of their ethical considerations, then that really puts them in the 'unwilling' category." IOW, there's a willingness without any other considerations (wouldn't that be fun but those other considerations end in an 'unwillingness'. And that end decision is what determines willingness or unwillingness, and it is binary at that point.
But I won't carry that argument further. Take a look at the posts in the SG forum, and you will see what it's like vaping in a country where everything has to come from the black market. The fear, the ripoffs, the crap merchandise being sold as premium, the lost money, the repercussions.
I will read the forum, but I have a pretty good take on those circumstances from 'another lifetime'.
If it was about getting food, then "willingness" wouldn't be a question. But when it concerns vaping, ultimately it boils down to "how far will I go before deciding that cigarettes is the choice I will make instead of risking something more serious". If you really think this (emphasis added):
IF someone is unwilling to engage in the black market, then we shouldn't care about that. That's their decision and it should be respected.
Well, I have nothing to say about that. Let's just call it a difference of opinion and let it be, because I don't think there's any way we'll ever agree.
Well, if you think that you should force someone to participate in the black market who is unwilling to, then we certainly differ and we won't agree. I don't 'help people for their own good'. The other statement that I made, other than the one you cherry-picked, I guess to show how 'uncaring I was' rather than what I actually intended - that once it was evident that the person was unwilling, that it was simply none of our business once that decision was made ...anyway the other statement was: "If you mean that the black market prices would make them unable to participate, then those who do care about them, should be able to help them out, some, or they could find a creative way to make the exchange possible. Something that I have done and would do for those unable but willing.
I usually don't do this but for you, I will. The "I guess I wish I lived in Ohio. Life must be so much simpler there." was a snarky comment. Then following up with two implied ideas that were no part of what I actually said - that a group whom I knew nothing about - that you imply that my comments meant "because they are either slow learners or just don't have the "willingness" as if I didn't care.... truly distorts what I actually posted, and as such is attack on me. I'm guessing it's politics since your last statement tends to reflect that type of disagreement "because I don't think there's any way we'll ever agree." And on that, you are right.... but that's about it.
BTW, the "As far as living in Ohio - I could help find you a gun. Moonshine, you'd have to go a bit further south. " was an (failed) attempt to lighten it up a bit. But obviously that didn't work.
SG Vapers
(They're from Singapore, but don't tell anybody) Read through the rules of the forum, and it will give you some idea.
Thanks. I'll check it out. I don't 'roam' around here as much as I did earlier. (for various reasons).
"Willingness" is not a binary choice, though. I would not be willing to place bets through bookies, not because I don't want to bet on games, but because I don't want to connect my wife and kids to the people who take those bets. I would not deal in stuff that's not mentioned here; although I could probably make a killing, it would never be worth the risk to my family. It's not at all the threat of the law, it's the threat from the other side that would deter me the most.
I disagree. As I posted to DC2: "If you mean they are 'unable' because of their ethical considerations, then that really puts them in the 'unwilling' category." IOW, there's a willingness without any other considerations (wouldn't that be fun
but those other considerations end in an 'unwillingness'. And that end decision is what determines willingness or unwillingness, and it is binary at that point. But I won't carry that argument further. Take a look at the posts in the SG forum, and you will see what it's like vaping in a country where everything has to come from the black market. The fear, the ripoffs, the crap merchandise being sold as premium, the lost money, the repercussions.
I will read the forum, but I have a pretty good take on those circumstances from 'another lifetime'.
If it was about getting food, then "willingness" wouldn't be a question. But when it concerns vaping, ultimately it boils down to "how far will I go before deciding that cigarettes is the choice I will make instead of risking something more serious". If you really think this (emphasis added):
IF someone is unwilling to engage in the black market, then we shouldn't care about that. That's their decision and it should be respected.
Well, I have nothing to say about that. Let's just call it a difference of opinion and let it be, because I don't think there's any way we'll ever agree.
Well, if you think that you should force someone to participate in the black market who is unwilling to, then we certainly differ and we won't agree. I don't 'help people for their own good'. The other statement that I made, other than the one you cherry-picked, I guess to show how 'uncaring I was' rather than what I actually intended - that once it was evident that the person was unwilling, that it was simply none of our business once that decision was made ...anyway the other statement was: "If you mean that the black market prices would make them unable to participate, then those who do care about them, should be able to help them out, some, or they could find a creative way to make the exchange possible. Something that I have done and would do for those unable but willing.
I usually don't do this but for you, I will. The "I guess I wish I lived in Ohio. Life must be so much simpler there." was a snarky comment. Then following up with two implied ideas that were no part of what I actually said - that a group whom I knew nothing about - that you imply that my comments meant "because they are either slow learners or just don't have the "willingness" as if I didn't care.... truly distorts what I actually posted, and as such is attack on me. I'm guessing it's politics since your last statement tends to reflect that type of disagreement "because I don't think there's any way we'll ever agree." And on that, you are right.... but that's about it.
BTW, the "As far as living in Ohio - I could help find you a gun.
Moonshine, you'd have to go a bit further south. " was an (failed) attempt to lighten it up a bit. But obviously that didn't work.
Last edited:
Just take a look at the herb that some people smoke...
When and where it is illegal, you often have to procure it from people you might rather not associate with.
You may even have to put yourself in situations that could turn out quite badly on any given day.
When and where it is legal, there are no such issues.
The people you deal with in each of the above situations are very different kinds of people.
And the risks you take are directly tied to the kinds of people you deal with.
When and where it is illegal, you often have to procure it from people you might rather not associate with.
You may even have to put yourself in situations that could turn out quite badly on any given day.
When and where it is legal, there are no such issues.
The people you deal with in each of the above situations are very different kinds of people.
And the risks you take are directly tied to the kinds of people you deal with.
twgbonehead:14931709]
I usually don't do this but for you, I will. The "I guess I wish I lived in Ohio. Life must be so much simpler there." was a snarky comment. Then following up with two implied ideas that were no part of what I actually said - that a group whom I knew nothing about - that you imply that my comments meant "because they are either slow learners or just don't have the "willingness" as if I didn't care.... truly distorts what I actually posted, and as such is attack on me. I'm guessing it's politics since your last statement tends to reflect that type of disagreement "because I don't think there's any way we'll ever agree." And on that, you are right.... but that's about it.
BTW, the "As far as living in Ohio - I could help find you a gun.
[/COLOR]
Yeah, that was a snarky comment. I apologize; I was a bit frustrated and I let the content get away from me.
We certainly do have very different opinions, though (or else we really don't communicate well). What I was trying to say is that you don't seem to think that having to go to a black market is all that big a deal (that is at least how I understand your position) while I think it IS a big deal.
Again, I apologize for that post. It was a bit vehement and not really productive...
Apology accepted and thanks. If anything, you are brave - apologies are rare on the net
and in this case, appreciated. I DO think the black market is a big deal and the preference to a free market is 99-1 vs. having to go to the black market. That said - IF that is the outcome (I highly doubt it would be here in the US), then my intent was to lay out the options - of 'willing/unwilling' 'able/unable'. I might try to inform or encourage someone 'unwilling' but would never force them. And if someone is willing, I will accommodate if I can. IOW, facing the reality of what a black market means and how it works rather than wringing my hands about it. It's not a good thing but as we've seen, in some countries, it's the only "free market" that exists and unfortunately, it is where people have to go to get what they want. When it's underground, the type of 'self-governing' that we've done here in the open and with full communication works rather well, isn't going to work as well... underground. D'uh
Thanks again, for the link to SG vapers, I spent much time there this morning and afternoon. Such a sad situation but some are doing fine - some not so much and communication there is rightfully tight.... If I could find a way, I would help, but even asking about it there would be a liability for anyone replying
It appears that we aren't as far off as I thought and I recall enjoying many of your posts in the past. But yeah, we have some differences. I try to be as concise as possible and many of my "somes" and "mosts" are read as "all" and I rarely use 'never' or 'always'
Disagree with this, based on the word "often." I would say it is very rare that you put yourself in a position to procure from people you might rather not associate with and/or put yourself in situations that could end up bad.
With vaping, (like with *other stuff*), it would be closer to reality to assume that if you know of anyone at the acquaintance level or higher, who vapes, and have 2 years prep time (which FDA has clearly indicated), then you would have a lot of time to understand what type of situations you would be procuring your stash. I reckon it would be on par with "going over to friend's house to watch sports on TV." And as dangerous if that event included drinking, knowing that one of the people in that situation may later be driving.
The legal situation is not without issue(s). In some ways, I think the underground market is preferable, more personable. IOW, it can be more 'dangerous' but again, is like arguing that a person that speeds on the highway is putting us all in grave danger and that speeding on the highway (going 62 in a 55 zone) is often going to lead to a very bad situation. When in reality, it happens all the time and life goes on as swimmingly as ever.
Buying a gun on the black market (which I've never done) would be akin to driving 85 in a 55 speed zone.
Buying vaping products on the black market would be akin to driving 58 in a 55 speed zone.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
