clone of ggts !!!and ufs

[alvinado]

Why is it a surprise that others copy others work. It is human nature to some to copy others work when there is a gain to be made. Businessmen since the beginning of time have copied ideas and mimicked others invention.

Do you think that the fork was not copied? Really? What about the doghouse? someone invented that and now you can go to a pet store and buy premade doghouses of several varieties.

It was only a matter of time that someone just did not take one aspect and integrate it into their mod design but take the whole thing and replicate it.

Reverse engineering something spawns ideas to others and that spark of an idea makes it to where someone takes a rock wheel and over time makes it into a tubeless rubber radial tire and alloy wheel.

For those that thinks this is shameful and an atrocity to do this really must open their eyes to the bigger picture that it was going to happen and will continue to happen and hopefully some good will come from it.

More than half the things you use on a daily basis was a copy and rendition of something else and made better by this process.

Now don't take this the wrong way, I am not saying that the GGTS can be made better by someone else but one day Imeo may run out of ideas and someone else may pick up the torch.

I personally love my GGTS just the way it is but there are "modders" out there that are going to copy and refine what we currently have and try to make better stuff, and that is how we al got here, if there were not modders and hackers and reverse engineers then we would all be sucking on a 510 battery with 100mah of power and dual coils would not have even been made.

I cannot really agree with you statement fully, maybe 50%, yes taking an idea and make it better is innovation. But copying like for like is conterfeiting. You look at the swiss watch industry, everyone is copying from the others with their own personal touch. But if you make a copy that is maybe 99% of the real deal, that's counterfeiting.

Try telling Rolex that you produce a watch that has the same dimensions and they'll sue the hell outta you. Functions can be copied and made better, just like watches, that drives innovation. but form is permanent, if you copy the form, thats counterfeiting.

 

[imeothanasis]

Its just silly to copy others ideas Papa. The big picture you say its a bad one but exists. Ok, lets stay on this picture. If you see other mods out there with same features like GGTS and without any improvement, its not only a copy but a really silly move just to make some quick backs if you agree. But the only I see are copies that have less features than GGTS. If you are a serious creator you take an idea and you make it much better, not worse if you agree.


ps........ thats doent apply only to GGTS but to all mods out there of course.

 

[Torqueguy]

Correct. The problem is cultural. Asia has had problems with IT stuff, movies, watches etc for this reason. They accept counterfeits as a normal part of doing business. When you duplicate dimensions exactly, then you counterfeit, period.

Try telling Rolex that you produce a watch that has the same dimensions and they'll sue the hell outta you. Functions can be copied and made better, just like watches, that drives innovation. but form is permanent, if you copy the form, thats counterfeiting.

 

[clyde2801]

I went to grad school with a friend of mine who was a taiwanese national on a scholarship. I stayed in the bible belt, he left for the left coast to do contracts for western hemisphere companies wanting to do business in the PRC. (He made me a job offer shortly after graduation, why oh why, didn't I accept?!?)

Sorry. Anyhou, he informed me that in order to protect intellectual property you had to get patents in the US, the EU and China. Simply put, the Chinese don't respect anyone else's patents, only their own. Accordingly, he informed me that if you send something off there to see if they can manufacture it, they will rest assured copy it and make their own version if they can do so and make a profit.

Hard to figure out the ruthless capitalists from the socialists sometimes.

 

[imeothanasis]

clyde, you are a lawyer but a citizent too so I want to ask you something simple. Is there a serious reason to patent something? I am wondering why people have to do that. It would be easier, simpler, cheaper and honest to be able to protect your work without having to pay large amounts of money to do it. Am I right? We are so used to the sh**t that others offer to us that we cant see further. And I dont like the way some people drive this poor world.

I know your answer of course. It will be that you dont make the laws and that we live in a silly world. I will agree for sure.


ps....... we will not accept silly behaviours because its something common. I dont like common things, I like new-better ones!

 

[Major]

And never being satisfied with your products is one reason you'll always be at least one step ahead of the makers of the copies. As for Patents, I was never bar certified as I just didn't take the time but my family's business was and is corporate law. I guess because I never actually practiced it, my views are a little different than others but I tend to agree with your perspective Imeo.

Securing patents is a costly (as to time and legal repressentation) and even if and when patents are secured, spending much of your time and resources to try to have the patents enforced only further slow down your production time. If you were a volume business only after the money, I could see a reason but you are not.

As others have documented as well, look at the countries in question that you would most likely seek to have patent laws enforced. The PRC for example, is a money pit for lawyers representing multi-billion dollar corporations like Microsoft. Yet they still can't even get a noticeable slow down of the counterfeiting of their products. The Chinese government itself thrives on the art of idea theft and replication of other nations industrial complexes.

When the government you seek to protect your intellectual properties are themselves thieves of everything from dog food prodcution to advanced military weapons systems, you are wasting your time. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Papa Hoyt]

I cannot really agree with you statement fully, maybe 50%, yes taking an idea and make it better is innovation. But copying like for like is conterfeiting. You look at the swiss watch industry, everyone is copying from the others with their own personal touch. But if you make a copy that is maybe 99% of the real deal, that's counterfeiting.

Try telling Rolex that you produce a watch that has the same dimensions and they'll sue the hell outta you. Functions can be copied and made better, just like watches, that drives innovation. but form is permanent, if you copy the form, thats counterfeiting.

I understand what you mean by counterfieting and this is pretty dang close to it, the only thing that keeps it from being counterfieting is that it is not being sold as a GGTS or UFS. You can make your own Rolex if you want but put their name on it and then try to sell it as a Rolex will get you in a sling. Using a patented technology in the watch and selling it will get you in a sling as well.

Its just silly to copy others ideas Papa. The big picture you say its a bad one but exists. Ok, lets stay on this picture. If you see other mods out there with same features like GGTS and without any improvement, its not only a copy but a really silly move just to make some quick backs if you agree. But the only I see are copies that have less features than GGTS. If you are a serious creator you take an idea and you make it much better, not worse if you agree.


ps........ thats doent apply only to GGTS but to all mods out there of course.

clyde, you are a lawyer but a citizent too so I want to ask you something simple. Is there a serious reason to patent something? I am wondering why people have to do that. It would be easier, simpler, cheaper and honest to be able to protect your work without having to pay large amounts of money to do it. Am I right? We are so used to the sh**t that others offer to us that we cant see further. And I dont like the way some people drive this poor world.

I know your answer of course. It will be that you dont make the laws and that we live in a silly world. I will agree for sure.


ps....... we will not accept silly behaviours because its something common. I dont like common things, I like new-better ones!

You may think it is silly but the patent laws are their for a reason, if you want to protect what you have then you have to get it patented. Should you have to do it, no but, this is the way it is done to protect what is yours.
Why is it copying is silly? No offense but if I had a lathe and the hardware I could try to replicate what you have done for my own personal use. I could not in good conscious take what I make and sell it to others as it would be a direct copy of what you have built, but htat is me having a concious not all have that and will do what they can to make money. Agree or not that is the cold hard truth. Most people will do anything to make money.

Copying has been going on since time began and will continue to do so. All of us are sitting infront of a machine that has been copying other technologies for a long time whether it be a PC or a MAC, even the linux crowd has copied itself into oblivion.
I agree that thing should be better, if I take your concept and work on it i should put out something that is better and not a complete clone but that happens too unfortunately.

My main concern is not that it is being copied but that part of the family here is naive to the idea that it is happening. You yourself has said it does not bother you and this is because whether you accepted it after the fact or knew the minute you came up with this idea you would be copied.

I am just trying to point out a few things here and not stir up a hornets nest. Everything is copied, copied and improved, and copied and made worse. That is just the way things are.

 

[Major]

I understand your thinking Papa but I still go back to my last post: How can Imeo expect real protection from a patent in countries that have made their own industrial complexes based on the theft of others ideas? One of my family's largest clients, IPC, spends upwards of 20% of their gross income trying to fend off patent infringements every year.

While they have been advised of the obviously uphill battle they are fighting and losing financially, they choose to continue. If Imeo were to form a corporate entity and pursue mass production of this creations and ideas, yes, a patent option may benefit him. As primarily an artist and creator, how can he justify cutting his production time by a third or a half and invest much of his financial return fighting windmills?

I too don't mean to sound offensive and am only expresing an educated opinion but as bad as reality sucks, I can see why Imeo chooses the route he takes.

 

[imeothanasis]

I will stay a little to what you said Papa: "Most people will do anything to make money". Using the word "anything" you show that you dislike the way some people want to make money, yes?

As for the patent issue, you will realize a simple thing if you search deeper. Patent is something that protects you from copiers. So the existence of patent means that copiers are bad people and patent gives us the ability to be protected from them. Am I right? So we have a conclusion here that copiers want to harm us but can be protected by patent.

As for the patent itself. Is there a reason to patent something to be protected? I mean that if someone robs my house then police will not come to help me if I havent patent my house? I really dont get the idea of patent. Its an old status quo that has to change.

stealing an idea is like stealing someone's house and much worse. Because someone's idea worth 1 milion and his house only some thousands of dollars.

Many things have to change in this world and patent idea is one of them to my opinion Papa if you agree.

Of course I dont care about copies because I keep my energy to produce better things for GG and not wasting my time on trash. But we have to say some truths too about business and the way some people run them.

Copiers will be always thiefs and bad thinking people. They exist but that doesnt mean that we have to accept them. If someone want to really improve something (not a nut or a bolt!!) he can do it. But making less just to sell cheaper is really silly

 

[Papa Hoyt]

I understand your thinking Papa but I still go back to my last post: How can Imeo expect real protection from a patent in countries that have made their own industrial complexes based on the theft of others ideas? One of my family's largest clients, IPC, spends upwards of 20% of their gross income trying to fend off patent infringements every year.

While they have been advised of the obviously uphill battle they are fighting and losing financially, they choose to continue. If Imeo were to form a corporate entity and pursue mass production of this creations and ideas, yes, a patent option may benefit him. As primarily an artist and creator, how can he justify cutting his production time by a third or a half and invest much of his financial return fighting windmills?

I too don't mean to sound offensive and am only expresing an educated opinion but as bad as reality sucks, I can see why Imeo chooses the route he takes.

No offense taken, I understand the billions of dollars spent annually defending, updating, and improving patent rights, it is ridiculous because you can spend as much as you make defending your ideas and intellectual properties and that just drives the price up on the product you are trying to produce. Look at Adobe...you really think the software costs 1000+ to produce? Nope it is in patenting it and protecting it.

 

[clyde2801]

clyde, you are a lawyer but a citizent too so I want to ask you something simple. Is there a serious reason to patent something? I am wondering why people have to do that. It would be easier, simpler, cheaper and honest to be able to protect your work without having to pay large amounts of money to do it. Am I right? We are so used to the sh**t that others offer to us that we cant see further. And I dont like the way some people drive this poor world.

I know your answer of course. It will be that you dont make the laws and that we live in a silly world. I will agree for sure.


ps....... we will not accept silly behaviours because its something common. I dont like common things, I like new-better ones!

Let me preface this by saying I'm not a patent attorney, and not licensed in your country, blah-blah-blah. And my knowledge of the patent system is very superficial and limited. But I've heard quite a few folks say that the patent system in the US is like the tax code: overly complex, burdensome and broken.

In theory, someone with a good idea or design should be able to protect their hard work and be entitled to make money off of it for a reasonable period of time before the entire society can benefit from it. Instead, it has been made into a system made to benefit the dishonest, and lawyers.* You have to hire lawyers to make sure your patent will be improved. You have to hire lawyers to fight any infringement in court. You then hire more lawyers to try to get the patent extended so you can keep making money off it, since you've spent so much of the money you made hiring lawyers. Or you can make a bs patent off of nothing more than an vague fuzzy idea with no actual product or design work backing it up, and sue the true innovators who make your vague idea a reality. Apple can shut down knock off 'apple story' shops selling counterfeit goods because they have the money to hire a horde of lawyers, the rest of us just end up getting ripped off. Then again, even Apple has to then turn around and pay for licensing fees because someone came up with patents for 'one click online purchases'. A system made to protect everyone's efforts and ideas has become another battleground of economic warfare.

My understanding is the original e-cig was made by a chinese craftsman or engineer out of spare parts lying around his work space so he didn't have to go outside to smoke. The irony of ironies is that if he had the money and design to get patents in all three jurisdictions to get the proper patents, we'd all be paying him, either for his products or for licensing fees.




*Now theoretically, this is two classes of people....

 

[Papa Hoyt]

I will stay a little to what you said Papa: "Most people will do anything to make money". Using the word "anything" you show that you dislike the way some people want to make money, yes?

As for the patent issue, you will realize a simple thing if you search deeper. Patent is something that protects you from copiers. So the existence of patent means that copiers are bad people and patent gives us the ability to be protected from them. Am I right? So we have a conclusion here that copiers want to harm us but can be protected by patent.

As for the patent itself. Is there a reason to patent something to be protected? I mean that if someone robs my house then police will not come to help me if I havent patent my house? I really dont get the idea of patent. Its an old status quo that has to change.

stealing an idea is like stealing someone's house and much worse. Because someone's idea worth 1 milion and his house only some thousands of dollars.

Many things have to change in this world and patent idea is one of them to my opinion Papa if you agree.

Of course I dont care about copies because I keep my energy to produce better things for GG and not wasting my time on trash. But we have to say some truths too about business and the way some people run them.

Copiers will be always thiefs and bad thinking people. They exist but that doesnt mean that we have to accept them. If someone want to really improve something (not a nut or a bolt!!) he can do it. But making less just to sell cheaper is really silly

I would say that my use of the phrase having a conscience is what would make you believe I disagree with certain practices of the world.

As far as people that break into houses the only patent I recommend is a Springfield 45ACP but that is another subject altogether. I am not one to promote violence but I am not about to cross a busy street without looking both ways either.

I agree on the change that this world needs, but that is also another discussion for another time. Lets just say my beliefs on that would not be stomached well by most.

 

[imeothanasis]

Springfield 45ACP is a nice solution Papa. We agree here for sure lol

 

[TheKeithNewman]

I am about to be a proud owner of a GGTS this week.

While I understand your frustration on this... anyone who ends up spending an insane amount of cash (and let's admit it, the GG isn't cheap) on a dupe without researching first is an idiot. And deserves whatever piece of equipment they get. This is an advanced device, and people who upgrade from standard 510 kits and go to the GG have put some real research into it (I commend Bruce for posting the disclaimer on COV regarding the "advanced device" status on the GG products).

The patent system is broke all over the world. It's creating huge issues with cell phone development and technology in general. I understand why he wouldn't want to patent his product in the first place (mainly because it'll make him bankrupt just defending it). Copying is just going to happen. Unless you have billions and an extremely large user-base that is being dissuaded to use a copy, the loss of a few units doesn't justify the outcome.

This industry was built on copy and paste (as well as tinkerers who moved the movement forward with some impressive mods). Reading through these posts are interesting because a lot of people get the idea and others are sounding like sheep to their mods.

It's nice to know that he is more committed to improving on the GG family than he is on wasting time and money on avoiding/stopping the inevitable practices long withstanding over human history.

 

[clyde2801]

Sorry, Papa, I cannot disagree with you more.

A 45 can go through walls! Good old fashioned sawed off shotgun is what's called for.

 

[imeothanasis]

Thekeith, trying to defend what you own will drive you to a dead end. Its useless. I dont have the money and the time for this. My time is dedicated to my work and to my friends-customers. Thats the end of story for me. I see people trying to patent their mods. Its an ok procedure but I still think that they will not earn anything from it, only they will just lose time and money.

 

[Major]

The main reason I spent so many years in college and then law school and then chose to be a law enforcement officer is simple and pertains the the issues here spoken of. Practicing the law, any law, in the world in which we live is mostly orchestrated drama.

There are many things which were invented or created for the help of people that over the last 2 centuries in particular, have become nothing more than a tool to manipulate circumstances for the best possible financial outcome.

Take the patent issue. In the beginning, when there was a sense of "right and wrong", a patent meant something. It was a protection for those who needed it. Today, it is a good idea that no longer works because there is no inherent imperative as to right or wrong.

I chose to be a cop because I had direct hands on control of at least some of the outcome of some situations. As a practicing attorney, I would have spent my life learning that it is not about what is right or wrong any longer. It's about what can be admitted and what can be excluded. It's not what things really are in a court of law sadly but what they can be made to appear to be.

Patents are just one of the many things that did serve it's original purpose for a time. But now, these things are no more than a calling card to invite litigation and create the perpetual cycle of financial gain.

So yeah, I don't complain that I have already lived my life for the most part. I have no regrets as I wound up having chances to make a real impact on my corner of the world one person at a time. Don't get me wrong, financial gain motivates us all to some extent if we want nice things in life but somewhere along the way, we have lost our way.

I don't figure to be here 20 years from now and considering that I am a fan of things that are no longer valued today, maybe that's a good thing. I am not sure I want to see what "society" has evolved into by then.

 

[TheKeithNewman]

Thekeith, trying to defend what you own will drive you to a dead end. Its useless. I dont have the money and the time for this. My time is dedicated to my work and to my friends-customers. Thats the end of story for me. I see people trying to patent their mods. Its an ok procedure but I still think that they will not earn anything from it, only they will just lose time and money.

Absolutely. This is why your products keep getting better and have the loyalty behind them.

I think my point is... people getting this bent out of shape over something that you aren't actively pursuing might need a hobby.

 

[Papa Hoyt]

Sorry, Papa, I cannot disagree with you more.

A 45 can go through walls! Good old fashioned sawed off shotgun is what's called for.

Is it still illeagal if mine is professionally cut? Just saying.

 

[Major]

Is it still illeagal if mine is professionally cut? Just saying.

As long as the barrel is greater than 18 inches in length and the overall lengeth is greater than 26 inches, you are fine. When you go any shorter, you get hit with the NFA $200 USD tax stamp and have to register it as a class 3 weapon basically. My last Class 3 was a Fleming conversion MP5SD so my info may be a little dated.