Clone Versus Authentic Discussion

[Martnargh]

I dont belief in a set standard of doing things. To me ethics vary from scenerio to scenerio and from person to person.
Why is it cherrybomber clone from ivogo which is a 1:1 clone is 26 bucks and over 200 to buy authentic from bevapehappy or straight from mcv.
Same material, same device, same quality.
Intellect is worth over 10 times material and machining cost? Not to me.
I say if you dont want to get your .... cloned than price reasonably or no doubt its gonna happen.
Thats why none of the good low price attys like doge, freakshow, mx, troll etc get cloned and theyre some of the best attys anyway.

 

[Deadkaiser]

Yer I agree to that the insane prices are the cause of the cloning but you have to note the difference between where these are manufactured are ie i'm fairly certain that both the Freakshow and Troll are Chinese made (correct me if i'm wrong) thus production is cheap, If you actually compare them to similar clones they are relatively expensive lol. USA companies and Euro companies I think would have a hard time setting up highly competitive production lines in china or they may simply want to build the products in there home country. This probably accounts for a reasonable proportion of the price. So yer I doubt MCV could ever compete with ivogo on cost even if they wanted to.

I have to say if do find this bemusing that clones are happy discuss, reviewed ect. where as video and software Piracy which IMO is pretty much the same is hush hush or not allowed on most forums. I guess it probably due to legal reason.... Still the active enforcement of something's legality capacity to change people ethics is comical....

 

[USMCotaku]

Yer I agree to that the insane prices are the cause of the cloning but you have to note the difference between where these are manufactured are ie i'm fairly certain that both the Freakshow and Troll are Chinese made (correct me if i'm wrong) thus production is cheap, If you actually compare them to similar clones they are relatively expensive lol. USA companies and Euro companies I think would have a hard time setting up highly competitive production lines in china or they may simply want to build the products in there home country. This probably accounts for a reasonable proportion of the price. So yer I doubt MCV could ever compete with ivogo on cost even if they wanted to.

I have to say if do find this bemusing that clones are happy discuss, reviewed ect. where as video and software Piracy which IMO is pretty much the same is hush hush or not allowed on most forums. I guess it probably due to legal reason.... Still the active enforcement of something's legality capacity to change people ethics is comical....

There is actually a glaring difference between mod cloning and software/movie pirating. Mod cloners take someone's idea/design and make it similar, sometimes exact, thus making money off of the original idea. Pirated goods is directly making money off of someone else's work....reproducing and distributing the finished product. To make them the same, you would have to refilm the movie using the same script, then the movie would be the same as a clone mod (1:1 would need the original actors twins ).
That's a pretty big distinction in my eyes.

 

[NathanielFT]

Who gives a toss, besides a bunch of ....s i mean?

 

[Deadkaiser]

Yer I agree they not the same but both are stealing someone else property to make money without physical taking anything from the owner. FYI I dont think many 'Pirates'?? (is that what there called) make any money of piracy these days if i was to upload a movie to the internet now I would not make a dollar only the person who host the website it was connected to would makes any money (through adds). For the best part imo Piracy is more ethical because there not making financial gains 99% of the time..... So yes different but ethically better or worse?

Who gives a toss, besides a bunch of ****s i mean?

I'm pretty sure if your willing to read and then write about it a toss is given lol think you got your self there (can remember which movie your avatar is from really bugging me lol)

 

[NathanielFT]

I'm pretty sure if your willing to read and then write about it a toss is given lol think you got your self there (can remember which movie your avatar is from really bugging me lol)

Busted LOL. Na I don't care what people use, as cliche as it sounds I just love seeing people vape instead of smoking Government approved death sticks.

It's from purge 2 by the way

 

[ricks]

Busted LOL. Na I don't care what people use, as cliche as it sounds I just love seeing people vape instead of smoking Government approved death sticks.

It's from purge 2 by the way

Loved that movie..

 

[coolerat]

Vaping is such a new thing the person/company who first made something can still be traced back to. Some people don't eat things that had faces.

But many other things (everything to some extent) had an inventor as well. But time has moved on and people forget.

Did Ford invent the car?? Well no he cloned it and made it cheaper. So is buying a Ford supporting the original inventer or the first big time cloner?? From reading about Ford I have to think he would love China as they are doing what he wanted, put items in the hands of users at the lowest possible price with constant downward pressure on the price as manufacturing practices improved.

Does it matter?? Does any one even care anymore??

The art part I sorta get but at the same time its lost on me. The Mona Lisa is art. Its worth like 800 brazillion dollars. And if people run off 800 brazillion copies on an ink jet printer it affect the value of "the one" not one bit. But an atomizer made by the thousands on a CNC isn't exactly art.

 

[Two_Bears]

Can I say this in this thread? Bronze, HBcorpse and Pinggolfer think they have the best Kayfuns and think that clones are crap. They always talk down on clones. I feel that some clones are made just as good as the authentics.

Rick I agree with you. Sometimes both authentic and clones can be JUNK.

This morning I heard of an authentic coming full of gfease, and a clone that produced bigger clouds because of a thicker Delran insulator than the authentic.

 

[GeorgeS]

I'll toss my $0.02 in and be done with it.

In my humble opinion there is protected IP and then there is everything else. "IP" is not automagically protected, if I designed, built and started selling "a better mouse trap" out of my garage and my next door neighbor decides to steal my idea, under cut my pricing and begin selling the exact same thing (with the same name and logo, exc.) on it, I better have:

• registered my logos, product names, company name, exc. as Trademarks
• have my "better mouse trap" patented
• defend my IP

otherwise (in many countries including the USA) while what my neighbor is doing could be considered morally wrong, it may not be legally wrong.

In the USA the FTC goes to great lengths to inspect products entering it and are sold in it to ensure that counterfit products are not bought and sold here.

The "catch" is that the ("better mouse trap" in my case) needs to have patent, copyright and trademark registration to be protected IP otherwise it falls into the "everything else" bucket. Even with the mentioned protections in place, if my neighbor changes the design by a given percentage, (making his design while obviously based on mine, a "new idea") I won't have a leg to stand on in court.

I often wondered if many of the Chinese "clones" were ether factory 2nds that the workers started selling on their own, "extra production run" where the workers keep producing product beyond what the OEM order called for or if there was some under/above ground network of workers who traded the drawings/files needed to create other peoples products and enlisted other factories to make production runs of it as if it was their own.

 

[Two_Bears]

You can control buying a clone with the Original name on it by not buying it and telling the dealer it's wrong. Already some one was screwed buying a clone for real right here on EFC. The authentics are not over priced after all they did all the engineering to make sure it works right.

Eccuse me but how do you do that? Sometimes an unbranded clone simply is not available.

 

[hypocritelecteur]

Crosspollinating from another thread...
Have any other companies tried what Erlkonigin did with the Erlprinz?
Has anyone ever interviewed anyone over there about how that experiment went? Did it sell, did it affect sales of their premiere unit, did clones sell fewer units, etc?

 

[roxynoodle]

Crosspollinating from another thread...
Have any other companies tried what Erlkonigin did with the Erlprinz?
Has anyone ever interviewed anyone over there about how that experiment went? Did it sell, did it affect sales of their premiere unit, did clones sell fewer units, etc?

I don't know of any other companies that have done it, which is too bad. I can only speculate on the success, but many folks here have one or more Erlprinz and seem happy with them. I was going to buy one, and then another member gave me a clone so I used that. Eventually I got the authentic Erlkonigin as well.

I doubt anyone knows how many clones have been sold or the impact. I would be curious to know if the Erlprinz affected sales of premiere unit, but if I were to guess, probably not. People who aren't willing to pay that price usually never do. And I bet some who bought an Erlprinz to try out the design eventally bought the premiere unit as well. And some did the opposite. Bought, a premiere unit first because the Erlprinz wasn't out yet, then bought one or more Erlps later to save some money.

 

[hypocritelecteur]

Not sure who's fighting?

 

[Freedom2Vape]

Before I joined ECF, I would sometimes purchase a clone to see how I like it - sort of a try before you buy deal. Since I prefer flavor over clouds, it gives me a chance to look over the product. Sadly, I haven't had much luck with clones (leaking, turning posts, etc.), but it still doesn't stop me from occasionally trying one. If the flavor is there for me, I will get the authentic - IF it is available. Unfortunately, since I joined vaping late, the authentic versions are not always available.

ECF has been terrific for people like me that look for help - with help from the forums, I have found some really great flavor atomizers - mostly authentic (I like to support the hard work the modders have done). And the best part is that there is always an opinion and help available.

Best Regards,
F2V

 

[roxynoodle]

I do still buy a clone sometimes to try something out of my typical comfort zone first. Or I've bought Ubertoot clones, one first for a test drive, and now a v2 clone because the authentic has been largely unobtainable.

The majority of the clones I have or had still have mostly been gifts from others though, and I will always accept a gift graciously. And happily use it.

I also have bought an authentic to support the modder when I've liked the design.

I have recently done the opposite, too. I have the authentic, which has disappointing machining and CS issues, and recently grabbed a clone to compare them. Sadly, the clone is nicer. I had suspected it might be, which is why I bought it.

More and more affordable authentics have been coming out as well. I'm always happy to try them as there's really nothing to lose. Small amount of money to invest (really, clone prices), and if you don't care for it, you can sell it for a minor loss.

 

[ricks]

Every clone I have bought has worked great. I just can't buy authentic for the prices they want. The KF4 was almost $200. I bought 3 Tobecos for $53. I'd rather save my money and buy several clones and enjoy vaping even more. Buying Clones also allows me to keep my kids happy with their Xboxes and icraps, I mean iPhones. I prefer Android.

And if that bothers some people, keep it to yourself! You won't change how I feel.

 

[stevegmu]

Many of us who work in manufacturing can tell the difference, just by look and feel. Loose tolerances, gaps, poor threading, mystery metal is fine for some, I guess, but not me. What I do find interesting is that counterfeits are so commonplace in the vape world, most new vapers don't know their $30 Kayfun 4 is a fake...

 

[Freedom2Vape]

Every clone I have bought has worked great. I just can't buy authentic for the prices they want. The KF4 was almost $200. I bought 3 Tobecos for $53. I'd rather save my money and buy several clones and enjoy vaping even more. Buying Clones also allows me to keep my kids happy with their Xboxes and icraps, I mean iPhones. I prefer Android.

And if that bothers some people, keep it to yourself! You won't change how I feel.

So you wouldn't have any issues with someone taking credit for your work? Say on the job, you work hard on a project and someone else takes the credit for your hard work? I'm just curious....

Best Regards,
F2V

 

[hypocritelecteur]

That analogy doesn't hold water.
The market isn't about feelings. The clone market is simply correcting the oversight of the innovators in the availability of their product versus demand. Only a market based solution will make an impact and that's whats so fascinating about Erlkonigin's new approach with the Erlprinz! Everyone wins.