"Clones" are actually the REAL THING

[tricci]

If a manufacturer isn't willing to legally protect their products they are asking to be counterfeited. Not that they should be counterfeited, but it will happen. Another problem is that many "authentic" products are simply copies or slight variations of earlier products.

 

[NC56]

Just a reminder here on the forum-

Unacceptable
Counterfeit - An exact replica of original device. This would include, logos and/or any markings in which the original device contains.

Acceptable
Clone - This is a device that may appear similar, with similar functionality, but does not contain any of the same markings.

From here out, no counterfeit device will be allowed to be sold/traded/wanted in the ECF Classifieds nor will these devices be considered for a CO-OP.

Does that include Forum Suppliers that are on the forums? Some Suppliers sell counterfits also, I know since I just got one in the mail
and it's Garbage!! Poor workmanship Thought I was getting a clone but nope its a counterfeit

 

[Spike64]

Just a reminder here on the forum-

Unacceptable
Counterfeit - An exact replica of original device. This would include, logos and/or any markings in which the original device contains.

Acceptable
Clone - This is a device that may appear similar, with similar functionality, but does not contain any of the same markings.

From here out, no counterfeit device will be allowed to be sold/traded/wanted in the ECF Classifieds nor will these devices be considered for a CO-OP.

The people that run the forum have absolute authority to define the word "counterfeit" (or do anything else they want for that matter) within the confines of this forum...I don't personally agree with the forum's self-imposed, sweeping definition (in cases where the original maker doesn't hold a patent on a design or a trademark of a logo), but I realize that my opinion on ECF and 50 cents will get me a phone call....just sayin'....

 

[Jayvaps]

Spike. For what it is worth. I agree with you.

To me, the word counterfeit implies deception of the party acquiring the goods. If the product is sold as original, then yes, it should be called 'counterfeit'. If the product is not sold as an original, and marketed as a clone, replica, copy, whatever else you want to call it, then it is not a 'counterfeit'.

Obviously though, the staff of ECF, is free to make their own rules as they see fit.

 

[edyle]

I have to admit I like a good clone. They give people the ability to have a high end experience without the high end price tag, that's especially good for vapors on a limited budget. Also, it gives every vaper the opportunity to try a high end product for a fraction of the price to get an idea if they want to shell out the high dollars for it. Example, I always liked the Chi You, but the $225 dollar price tag seemed way too high. I bought a Chi You clone and liked it a lot. Now, I will be hunting down an authentic Chi You. I never would be doing that if I didn't test drive the clone first.

Also, some items are just nearly impossible to get because of limited supply and/or extreme price mark ups second hand, clone give the consumer the opportunity to have a product that is unattainable or discontinued.

However, it is inexcusable for clone makers to put the logos of the original on their clones.

"inexcusable" ??????????????????

Is it "inexcusable" to to label your product "SALT" when it's really arsenic?

How is it that ..................... Oh wait, maybe the idea here is that cloning is "excusable" but putting fake logos crosses the line.

Ah; Personally I think that just seems to tie the two things together when there really is a huge distinction.

There's nothing wrong with making a copy; nothing wrong with making a cheap knockoff; nothing wrong with making a good quality clone; but printing somebody else's name or brand on your item is deception; it is fraud; it is counterfiet.


If you make a new soft drink cola, and label it Cqka Cola, that might be excusable, but if you label it Coca Cola, that's not just "inexcusable", that's complete FRAUD.

 

[Dannyboy5691]

So, using the logic of people that buy original mechs, China is stealing from the original designers by using the originals images/engravings. People who buy these clones or counterfeits are complicit because we're helping China create this clone/counterfeit market. Ok, got it.

We know that Atmomixani, Mojo and Surefire don't own their respective images engraved on their mechs (Nemesis, Chi you, and King). So, using original owners logic, the above designers are also theives and original owners are complicit in helping them by providing a market for their designs.

It seems we're all complicit. But, as many original owners have pointed out, there wouldn't be a clone/counterfeit if we didnt have the original. This isn't a chicken or the egg comparison. It's apparent that the original designers mentioned above didn't care about the intellectual property rights of the others that they've stolen their images from, (and still dont care obviously, as these mechs are still being made and sold) and subsequently had engraved on their mechs. And yet knowing all of this, original owners are still buying these products and are self righteous enough to tell others that buy a clone/counterfeit that it's wrong?

I love logic, don't you?

 

[LDS714]

So, using the logic of people that buy original mechs, China is stealing from the original designers by using the originals images/engravings. People who buy these clones or counterfeits are complicit because we're helping China create this clone/counterfeit market. Ok, got it.

We know that Atmomixani, Mojo and Surefire don't own their respective images engraved on their mechs (Nemesis, Chi you, and King). So, using original owners logic, the above designers are also theives and original owners are complicit in helping them by providing a market for their designs.

It seems we're all complicit. But, as many original owners have pointed out, there wouldn't be a clone/counterfeit if we didnt have the original. This isn't a chicken or the egg comparison. It's apparent that the original designers mentioned above didn't care about the intellectual property rights of the others that they've stolen their images from, (and still dont care obviously, as these mechs are still being made and sold) and subsequently had engraved on their mechs. And yet knowing all of this, original owners are still buying these products and are self righteous enough to tell others that buy a clone/counterfeit that it's wrong?

I love logic, don't you?

World's largest conspiracy - it involves everyone!!!!

 

[edyle]

So, using the logic of people that buy original mechs, China is stealing from the original designers by using the originals images/engravings. People who buy these clones or counterfeits are complicit because we're helping China create this clone/counterfeit market. Ok, got it.

We know that Atmomixani, Mojo and Surefire don't own their respective images engraved on their mechs (Nemesis, Chi you, and King). So, using original owners logic, the above designers are also theives and original owners are complicit in helping them by providing a market for their designs.

It seems we're all complicit. But, as many original owners have pointed out, there wouldn't be a clone/counterfeit if we didnt have the original. This isn't a chicken or the egg comparison. It's apparent that the original designers mentioned above didn't care about the intellectual property rights of the others that they've stolen their images from, (and still dont care obviously, as these mechs are still being made and sold) and subsequently had engraved on their mechs. And yet knowing all of this, original owners are still buying these products and are self righteous enough to tell others that buy a clone/counterfeit that it's wrong?

I love logic, don't you?

I have no idea what you said;

plus the following words sound confused: "People who buy these clones or counterfeits are complicit"
(Is it clones or is it counterfeit. And if it is not counterfeit, where does complicit come in)

I dont know what is mojo sufire nemesis etc so i'm confused about the point; sounds like one is the 'original' and one is not but i wouldnt know which is which.

 

[Dannyboy5691]

Spike. For what it is worth. I agree with you.

To me, the word counterfeit implies deception of the party acquiring the goods. If the product is sold as original, then yes, it should be called 'counterfeit'. If the product is not sold as an original, and marketed as a clone, replica, copy, whatever else you want to call it, then it is not a 'counterfeit'.

Obviously though, the staff of ECF, is free to make their own rules as they see fit.

Absolutely correct. And the fact that counterfeits are illegal to sell or import. Anyone that buys a clone knows that it's a clone and not the original. Some original owners are only concerned about their ego. It really is a blow to their self esteem when they hear about a $50 clone that is as good as their $200 original. And that's really sad when you let an inanimate object define who you are.

 

[glassgal]

If a manufacturer isn't willing to legally protect their products they are asking to be counterfeited. Not that they should be counterfeited, but it will happen. Another problem is that many "authentic" products are simply copies or slight variations of earlier products.

Only problem with that is, each 'protection' is only offered in the nation it was protected in. How could a small machinist wanting to sell a few hundred pieces he made himself for a grand total profit of a few hundred dollars going to afford to pay for Trademark, Patent, Copyright protection in the US and China and Europe? We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars. Filing fees for a US Patent alone cost $12,000 in 1991. Today, it's probably closer to $25,000... and a 3 year process. My understanding is that just filing a simple Trademark in China takes nearly a year.

Then, when infringement occurs, you'd have to have thousands of dollars to defend it, let alone flying to China to appear at court dates to defend your filed documentation.... and you can lose.

All this so you can make a few hundred dollars selling your single product? Really?

 

[Dannyboy5691]

I have no idea what you said;

plus the following words sound confused: "People who buy these clones or counterfeits are complicit"
(Is it clones or is it counterfeit. And if it is not counterfeit, where does complicit come in)

I dont know what is mojo sufire nemesis etc so i'm confused about the point; sounds like one is the 'original' and one is not but i wouldnt know which is which.

Original owners are saying that clone buyers are complicit with China in stealing from the original designers. Yet the Nemesis, Chi you and the King, which are supposed to be "original designs", are stealing their images that they engrave on these mechs. Original owners still purchase these designs knowing this fact. So how is an original designer doing anything different than China? And, how are original owners/buyers doing anything different than what clone buyers are doing?

I would also submit that it's the original buyers that were lied to by the designers (Atmomixani, Mojo and Surefire), as it's
obvious that their products aren't completely original and obviously infringe on the intellectual property of others. And yet knowing this, they keep buying these products?

But clone buyers are bad people. Great logic.

 

[tricci]

Only problem with that is, each 'protection' is only offered in the nation it was protected in. How could a small machinist wanting to sell a few hundred pieces he made himself for a grand total profit of a few hundred dollars going to afford to pay for Trademark, Patent, Copyright protection in the US and China and Europe? We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars. Filing fees for a US Patent alone cost $12,000 in 1991. Today, it's probably closer to $25,000... and a 3 year process. My understanding is that just filing a simple Trademark in China takes nearly a year.

Then, when infringement occurs, you'd have to have thousands of dollars to defend it, let alone flying to China to appear at court dates to defend your filed documentation.... and you can lose.

All this so you can make a few hundred dollars selling your single product? Really?

Sadly, if it's not legally protected then it's fair game to copy. Legally protected stuff gets copied all the time (just look at Apple and Andriod), how much more is unprotected stuff going to get copied. My guess is small high end mod makers aren't going to lose all that much business, especially judging by how hard it is to get the latest mod. Clones could actually help the small mod maker, again I was never going to buy a Chi You until I got a clone of it, now I'm saving for the real thing.

 

[Thrasher]

oh boy!! just when I thought this thread was dying off. lol

 

[Dannyboy5691]

oh boy!! just when I thought this thread was dying off. lol

This thread may die off, but in a couple more weeks there will be another just like it. It never ends. Lol

 

[glassgal]

Sadly, if it's not legally protected then it's fair game to copy. Legally protected stuff gets copied all the time (just look at Apple and Andriod), how much more is unprotected stuff going to get copied. My guess is small high end mod makers aren't going to lose all that much business, especially judging by how hard it is to get the latest mod. Clones could actually help the small mod maker, again I was never going to buy a Chi You until I got a clone of it, now I'm saving for the real thing.

Which is why the vaping community may want to support those 'small machinists' who made parts everyone enjoys so much they clammor for clones and fakes that do not need to pay that inventor/designer one penny for his work and time making the very first one.

Because if he is successful, he will make another, and another, and another. If he is not, he may just buy someone else's clone himself and forget the blood sweat and tears next time. And then, all innovation can be left to the Chinese. Then we wonder where our jobs went.

 

[Spike64]

Which is why the vaping community may want to support those 'small machinists' who made parts everyone enjoys so much they clammor for clones and fakes that do not need to pay that inventor/designer one penny for his work and time making the very first one.

Because if he is successful, he will make another, and another, and another. If he is not, he may just buy someone else's clone himself and forget the blood sweat and tears next time. And then, all innovation can be left to the Chinese. Then we wonder where our jobs went.

Sounds good and looks good on paper, but that idea actually only holds water if the "small machinists" fore go limited runs and high price points so that "everyone" can have a reasonable chance and opportunity to enjoy them...most folks either simply cannot get them due to limited availability or they are priced outside a typical person's means...these "small machinists" certainly can expect the support of those that actually get to enjoy them, but realistically, they probably wont get much consideration from those that never had a chance...clones fill that void and will be there, whether we like it or not, as long as things continue in this manner...

 

[glassgal]

That's a good point too.

 

[Dannyboy5691]

Which is why the vaping community may want to support those 'small machinists' who made parts everyone enjoys so much they clammor for clones and fakes that do not need to pay that inventor/designer one penny for his work and time making the very first one.

Because if he is successful, he will make another, and another, and another. If he is not, he may just buy someone else's clone himself and forget the blood sweat and tears next time. And then, all innovation can be left to the Chinese. Then we wonder where our jobs went.

Afaik, the Provari is made in house and the ELA by Super T. Do you have information of other american mechs that are made in the USA? Because if they're not then they're not providing any jobs. I also find it interesting that the Provari or the ELA haven't been cloned yet. But the Nemesis, Chi You, King and others have. The Provari is highly popular and the ELA is well known. Surely China must know about both of these mods.

It's my belief that the work for many mods is subbed out to China. This is why China can copy these mods so well. Do you really believe that someone in China is going to the trouble of waiting to buy the mods that have been cloned?

 

[minimalsaint]

Cat eating a pancake!

 

[Jayvaps]

Cat eating a pancake!

View attachment 277399

That probably isn't real butter.

Fake!!!