"Clones" are actually the REAL THING

[DrillRX]

I see it a little but differently. I think the modders are taking advantage of people by charging such high prices because of a one hit wonder. They build such a limited amount, and charge such a high price, they are BEGGING to be targeted by the clone makers.

If the modders would build a quality product, in high enough volume, at a good price point, there would be no reason to buy from the clone makers.

Most of the clones I've seen lately are either EXACT reproductions of the real deal, or improvements of the more expensive originals in some cases.

It's just like the DNA20 mods for example. Try to buy one....any one...anywhere... It's just a sea of waiting lists and pre orders and out of business modders. I've even seen a few popular modders say "We're not going to bother making any more until next year because of the holidays". ........WTH!!!...... They are the next target for clones for sure. It's already started.




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[Thrasher]

I see it a little but differently. I think the modders are taking advantage of people by charging such high prices because of a one hit wonder. They build such a limited amount, and charge such a high price, they are BEGGING to be targeted by the clone makers.

depends on who your talking about places like atmomixani, mmvapors and atmizoo are dumping out stock constantly yet they sell out in days, an about 3 weeks they will restock and yet gone within hours. it fun to watch somewhere like MMV today this one is in stock, tomorrow 2 left while another comes into stock.

you cant expect small outfits of just a few people to be able to make 1000's a month and no amount of cloning is affecting their sales in any way, they may not get 1 persons sale but 5 more are waiting.

perfect example is places like Ihybrid and SuperT, small shops with huge waiting lists. the argument of making more is only valid if people arent demanding the product yet there is never stock, when you fill 100 orders and there is 300 more waiting you do what you can, people have to sleep sometimes lol
look at foggati's - one guy - approx 150 attys a month yet probably 5000 orders lol i really cant expect the guy to give up his design to china just becuase i dont feel like waiting.

It's just like the DNA20 mods for example. Try to buy one....any one...anywhere... It's just a sea of waiting lists and pre orders and out of business modders

this is sort of a different situation, in most cases these arent people looking to open production facilities, they are just doing it to do it and dont realize the demand they will create, remember the DNA is a modders project board first, not a production product. as in the case of like the futura, even with out the missteps, the dna is very hard to work with in a tube mod and not everyone wants a weird little box ( i would never own one)

personally I see both sides of the argument some of the originals are expensive, but they sell so its a non issue. and i dont have a problem with copies but the whole direct clones using names and logos and all is a little disturbing, you can argue all you want about atmom using someone elses art all you want but what about the poldiac replica actually laser engraving the dude's signature like the original? thats plain wrong.

several EU mods are about to hammer the DNA20 so china better get cracking if they are gonna do that one. and dont forget the best china could do for a provari clone is the zmax so i wouldnt feel too worried.

 

[Fury83]

I see it a little but differently. I think the modders are taking advantage of people by charging such high prices because of a one hit wonder. They build such a limited amount, and charge such a high price, they are BEGGING to be targeted by the clone makers.

If the modders would build a quality product, in high enough volume, at a good price point, there would be no reason to buy from the clone makers.

Most of the clones I've seen lately are either EXACT reproductions of the real deal, or improvements of the more expensive originals in some cases.

Why can't hcigar or whatever crap factory just make an original design? You think it'd sell well or would people just want clones?

Also, pretty much anyone can find a nice mod in stock and the most popular cloned mods have not been terribly hard to acquire (besides the vela). People want the easy way to everything.

 

[exnihilo]

Why can't hcigar or whatever crap factory just make an original design? You think it'd sell well or would people just want clones?

Also, pretty much anyone can find a nice mod in stock and the most popular cloned mods have not been terribly hard to acquire (besides the vela). People want the easy way to everything.

R&D is the single (mostly) most expensive thing companies do. With the research and development out of the way, they save a ton of time and money.

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[edyle]

smokers who switched to vaping and started modding their own stuff, then making stuff for other people on a small scale might not even care if somebody cloned thier design.

but anyway, cloning isnt a ecig issue; it probably happens alot in the ecig industry because innovation is led by the users being unable to find good stuff.

 

[muzichead]

Why can't hcigar or whatever crap factory just make an original design? You think it'd sell well or would people just want clones?

Also, pretty much anyone can find a nice mod in stock and the most popular cloned mods have not been terribly hard to acquire (besides the vela). People want the easy way to everything.

Look at the Youde UD UDT-V10 mechanical mod for example... Original design by a fairly reputable company, shotty mod to say the least.

I think most vapers that are buying clones from FT and such are just wanting the "look" that the original modders have brought to the market and don't really care if it vapes like the original, (and somehow wonders why it don't)!! If they did care how it vaped, they would buy the original. If they cared about how anything vaped they probably wouldn't be buying from FT at all. Everything I read on the forum about something that is bought from FT needs to be modded in some fashion. Whether it be a magnet, hole drilled, different drip tip, switch, or anything else, it needs some type of modding done.

 

[Fury83]

Look at the Youde UD UDT-V10 mechanical mod for example... Original design by a fairly reputable company, shotty mod to say the least.

I think most vapers that are buying clones from FT and such are just wanting the "look" that the original modders have brought to the market and don't really care if it vapes like the original, (and somehow wonders why it don't)!! If they did care how it vaped, they would buy the original. If they cared about how anything vaped they probably wouldn't be buying from FT at all. Everything I read on the forum about something that is bought from FT needs to be modded in some fashion. Whether it be a magnet, hole drilled, different drip tip, switch, or anything else, it needs some type of modding done.

Yeah, that borrows a bit from the eveon but is original enough where it's not a clone of anything.

I know why most people buy clones, it's the lack of honesty about it that is funny.

 

[Richard75]

I think most vapers that are buying clones from FT and such are just wanting the "look" that the original modders have brought to the market and don't really care if it vapes like the original, (and somehow wonders why it don't)!! If they did care how it vaped, they would buy the original. If they cared about how anything vaped they probably wouldn't be buying from FT at all. Everything I read on the forum about something that is bought from FT needs to be modded in some fashion. Whether it be a magnet, hole drilled, different drip tip, switch, or anything else, it needs some type of modding done.

That's the thing. Some people want the look of an original, and the illusion of a high end mod, but don't want to spend the cash to support the person that invented the very thing they want, and in fact many blame them for driving people to the counterfeits. I just don't understand that...

 

[havoc1967]

Look at the Youde UD UDT-V10 mechanical mod for example... Original design by a fairly reputable company, shotty mod to say the least.

I think most vapers that are buying clones from FT and such are just wanting the "look" that the original modders have brought to the market and don't really care if it vapes like the original, (and somehow wonders why it don't)!! If they did care how it vaped, they would buy the original. If they cared about how anything vaped they probably wouldn't be buying from FT at all. Everything I read on the forum about something that is bought from FT needs to be modded in some fashion. Whether it be a magnet, hole drilled, different drip tip, switch, or anything else, it needs some type of modding done.

Disagree that if a person cared about how something vaped they wouldn't buy from Fast Tech at all. I have some mods that I got from Fast Tech and some from elsewhere. I've had some great performers from Fast Tech, and some that were mediocre that I got from somewhere else. I'm a true believer in "To each their own". I could not possibly care less what someone else buys. None of my business. If it makes that person happy, more power to them. It might be a $20 clone from Fast Tech, or a $250 high end from wherever. If it works for them, that is good enough. If I buy a replica/clone of a high end I would actually prefer it not have the logo, because I don't want to give the impression I am trying to impress people with a fake. Nothing matters more to me than my own happiness, nothing matters less to me than someone else's opinion.

In summation..... Fast Tech has some great clones. Are they rip-offs of an original? Almost certainly. Do I care? Not at all. I have a Chentinel V3, A TVS Chiablo and a Maraxus clone. All 3 are fantastic performers that I use regularly. Buy and use what you like. Cheap or expensive doesn't matter. As long as it works for you.

 

[edyle]

I think most vapers that are buying clones from FT

A broad generalization


People behave differently for different reasons on different days.

 

[buklao]

Hurt the industry in theory, or in reality? Because everything I've seen points to all the cloning being absolutely great for the industry.

People claim cloning and knockoffs hinder innovation. Ok, logical theory, but reality in this case is the opposite, cloning DRIVES new innovation. Evolv didn't come out with their Kick II until the Kick was cloned by China. Joye keeps redesigning and innovating new features on their eGo batteries, everyone else keeps knocking them off. There are many examples of new versions and updates of products being released by the original manufacturer after China cloned their first versions.

Whether they came out with new versions because China cloned their original, or were going to release a new version anyway, the point remains the clones are not hurting innovation. The ecig industry moves at faster than light speeds compared to any other industry I'm aware of. If everything in the industry worked the same as other, more mainstream industries with strict patent protection and all all, it would have taken 20 years to get where we have gotten in only 3.

The fact of the matter is that this industry is evolving and advancing at break-neck speeds, with new innovative products being released all the time. That's reality. To claim the industry has been harmed by cloning seems really dishonest to me.

Aside from that fact, consider the massive amounts of people getting into vaping, and STAYING with vaping because of all this low-priced gear. There is an unfathomable number of people buying vape gear every day, usually lower-priced stuff, who then move on up to higher end gear.

If they had to save up 300-400 for a decent setup before even getting started, far fewer would stick with it. I see vaping saving lives, and if I manufactured PVs, which got knocked off, and the knock-off helped someone quit smoking I'd be incredibly happy even if they bought the clone instead of my product.

I'm not trying to pick on you here, but I see that claim repeated over and over again, and it's just wrong. Because in the real world, with the massive amount of cloning and copying, innovation is strong, and nobody can honestly deny that. All these high-end, in demand products sell out in quick order, and nobody can deny that. There is no damage, nothing negative happening anywhere other than in people's heads.

People that want high-end expensive original gear can have it, people that want cheap gear can have it, people who want to manufacture and sell high-end gear can sell all they can produce, many people around the world can make a living as vendors selling knock-offs and clones. Everyone, quite literally, wins, and nobody is loosing. Yet over and over people need to manufacture negativity. These are good times people, we have a nearly unlimited selection of awesome gear, and everyone is making money, be happy.

Very well said my friend

 

[EatBacon]

Oh, boy.
Hang on tight.

Ha, I love that statement!

 

[buklao]

That's the thing. Some people want the look of an original, and the illusion of a high end mod, but don't want to spend the cash to support the person that invented the very thing they want, and in fact many blame them for driving people to the counterfeits. I just don't understand that...

Well if these "inventors" keeps on making unlimited amount of products, only a few would turn into buying counterfeits. Its a tactic that has its benefits and loss..

Benefit: they make serial numbers, limited quantity to prepare the sales of their next coming mod, to make it seem its a "must-have" item no matter what the price is.

Loss: Everyone wants to have them but not everyone can. LIMITED quantities. So they completely shut down those who have the money but was not fast enough to act on the sale when it went down.

Its a tactic to squeeze the juices more, but they are also losing a lot. They dont have to be "rare" to earn more out of it, selling 100 authentic mods for $300 is the same as selling these same mods for $100 but unlimited quantities.. People would buy it no matter what, if its really good then its really good. Its the quality that sells not the quantity.

 

[Fury83]

Well if these "inventors" keeps on making unlimited amount of products, only a few would turn into buying counterfeits. Its a tactic that has its benefits and loss..

Benefit: they make serial numbers, limited quantity to prepare the sales of their next coming mod, to make it seem its a "must-have" item no matter what the price is.

Loss: Everyone wants to have them but not everyone can. LIMITED quantities. So they completely shut down those who have the money but was not fast enough to act on the sale when it went down.

Its a tactic to squeeze the juices more, but they are also losing a lot. They dont have to be "rare" to earn more out of it, selling 100 authentic mods for $300 is the same as selling these same mods for $100 but unlimited quantities.. People would buy it no matter what, if its really good then its really good. Its the quality that sells not the quantity.

Most things aren't especially limited to anyone with a bit of patience. There's two places with nemesis available right now...I am guessing people are still buying clones. Stainless chi's are available...yet still clones are being bought.

It's not hard to find these things, it's just easier to pretend you can't and order a clone then be self-righteous about it.

 

[muzichead]

Whats even more self-righteous is how many people "know" all the clones are made by the same manufacturer! Yet, out of 10 different people, the majority will say there is a difference from FT to VB to HCigar to Haiyuan, only for the ones who "know" to say they don't know what they are looking at and there's no difference at all, yet still contend and post they are from the same manufacturer.... I don't get it... I could care less if it is a clone and even has the same artwork on the mod... When it has a serial number attached is where I draw the line...

 

[cromagnon]

Where the self righteousness is coming from in this thread is from those trying to impress their morality on the rest.

The people that are buying clones are not breaking any laws. There is no black market buying going on, they are buying them from legitimate vendors.

For whatever reason they chose to buy them (and there are many), what gives others the right to shame them for doing so? That is very much like someone cramming their religion down someone else's throat.

It is their choice to buy them or not - not yours.

They are not breaking any laws buying them so, calling them thieves or dishonest is out right slander. If this was done in a public place with witnesses in the US, the slanderer(s) could be sued.

Who would be criminal in that situation?

The peasants have no bread... "Let them eat cake!" = The kind of inept, decadent, aristocratic attitude that initiated The 1789 French Revolution.

The economically challenged need affordable PV's... "If they did care how it vaped, they would buy the original." = The same kind of attitude IMO.

People that say things like that have no real idea of someone else's economic status - and don't care. It is callous, rude and comes from the point of view of someone that cannot see beyond their own nose.

Those of you trying to impress your will and authority over the clone buyers are no different than the ANTZ people you despise so much for trying to take away your choice. Of coarse when it is your choice being taken away, you're all up in arms and defiantly saying something to the effect of "how dare they!".

Your kind of attitude never solves problems - all it does is fester resentment and build divides.

Telling me what I can and cannot do when I have committed no crime is where I draw the line...

---

"People disagreeing everywhere you look, makes you wanna stop and read a book. Why only yesterday I saw somebody on the street that was really shook.

But this ol' river keeps on rollin' though, no matter what gets in the way and which way the wind does blow, and as long as it does I'll just sit here and watch the river flow." - Bob Dylan

 

[nightfell]

Counterfeit Culture _ Counterfeit Culture - Video Dailymotion

Another one in the same vain is the book Death By China. Netflix has the same titled documentary based on the book.


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[Fury83]

Where the self righteousness is coming from in this thread is from those trying to impress their morality on the rest.

The people that are buying clones are not breaking any laws. There is no black market buying going on, they are buying them from legitimate vendors.

For whatever reason they chose to buy them (and there are many), what gives others the right to shame them for doing so? That is very much like someone cramming their religion down someone else's throat.

It is their choice to buy them or not - not yours.

They are not breaking any laws buying them so, calling them thieves or dishonest is out right slander. If this was done in a public place with witnesses in the US, the slanderer(s) could be sued.

Who would be criminal in that situation?

The peasants have no bread... "Let them eat cake!" = The kind of inept, decadent, aristocratic attitude that initiated The 1789 French Revolution.

The economically challenged need affordable PV's... "If they did care how it vaped, they would buy the original." = The same kind of attitude IMO.

People that say things like that have no real idea of someone else's economic status - and don't care. It is callous, rude and comes from the point of view of someone that cannot see beyond their own nose.

Those of you trying to impress your will and authority over the clone buyers are no different than the ANTZ people you despise so much for trying to take away your choice. Of coarse when it is your choice being taken away, you're all up in arms and defiantly saying something to the effect of "how dare they!".

Your kind of attitude never solves problems - all it does is fester resentment and build divides.

Telling me what I can and cannot do when I have committed no crime is where I draw the line...

---

You are making a lot of assumptions. I don't care what you buy, what you make or where you draw the line. The title of the thread is clones are actually the real thing, so you would expect and argument from both sides.

I am not telling you what to do, I'm telling you what I think of what you do and the way you justify it. There are plenty of things that I can't afford but I don't buy fake versions of those. People with less money can buy good pv's that aren't counterfeits with copied logos. How many weeks of cigarettes was $150?

Your choice to buy a fake nemesis says something about you just as someone's choice not to. We seem to disagree just on what it says about someone....deal with it.

As vaping gets bigger and mod makers get bigger you'll start seeing this

Police bust business that sold counterfeit products - FOX 10 News | myfoxphoenix.com

The only reason you don't now is that it's mostly international and small businesses getting their products ripped off. It's pretty much illegal anywhere to sell logo'd counterfeit items. NYC was looking into making it illegal to buy them.

 

[pt91]

same old story..innovators rarely have the money to produce in mass quantities and there is always someone with money and no imagination to crank out cheap copies. In five years I have never purchased a clone/copy/counterfeit because I wanted something that lasted.
They have/did and all of the early mods I purchased I have sold for at least twice as much as I bought them for. I am not a collector but I understand those that do.
Started with mods and guess I will stay with mods until something better and less hassle comes around.

 

[JollyRogers]

I read this thread early on in its life… it is still going on, and didn't read a lot of it since. I have a real Nemmy, have seen one clone (whatever brand it was manufacturing wise) to compare against, and also the HCIGAR. First of all, the HCIGAR is almost as good as the original (minus metals used I am sure), but with some noticeable differences and the other clone I looked at paled in comparison. I really don't think "clones are actually the real thing" after seeing a lot of them, and in the Nemesis (and Kayfun) case believe they are coming from different cloners in China. I am not a fan of clones, but they have a place amongst the market I guess because the market demand is so much higher then the supply for a nice next big thing mod. I think it is morally wrong to do, but from a purchasers stand point they are getting, what is in their mind, something close to the original and hoping it performs the same. Some are very happy with this, and some may have found out the hard way that you get what you pay for (sometimes). It is only a battery holder and a heating element, right? Buy a Rolex copy in the streets of Naples, and see how it compares to the real thing sometime… I know, bad analogy Buy a Terminator and compare it to a real Ody after a lot of use - better comparison. If the cottage modders could build enough for everyone, and afford to patent their work, they would do so when they have a decent innovation. However, a lot do not have the means to do this for whatever reason, and maybe a few do limited runs on purpose. I believe it is not the later in most cases and unless it is something really innovative, it would be a hard press to get a patent anyways, plus it wouldn't matter to the cloners. So I really don't have a problem with "cloners" making a batt tube that does the function of hold a battery, contains a switch, and gets power to an atomizer. It is the copycat clones I cannot stand.

The biggest problem I see with clones, is the resale market, especially for out right forgery/clones. I will not purchase a Chi You, Nemesis, King Mod, or anything of the sort second hand or from an unknown vendor now. I have also noticed that resale "value" has dropped dramatically amongst certain mods, especially when there is a decent clone, no one wants to pay for a second hand original and have already seen people get taken with clones as the "real" thing in trades or classified sales. So some are getting hurt. It's those that buy the real thing and try to sell it at a decent price, or those that buy something thinking its real and it is not… But hey it vaporizes e-liquid and gets people off the stinks, right! Until you pay someone $$$ selling a clone as the real thing and get hurt, it won't matter to you or until you pay $$$ for the real thing and try to sell it and no one wants it at that price because they can get a clone for a third of the price, it won't matter… unless all you delve into are clones.

Another trend/innovation amongst modders seems to be to make RBA/RDA(s) that only thread/fit their mods. Was this to slow down the clones? Maybe, maybe not, but it creates a hybrid type setup that is more compact and once again an innovation, however so slight… and it is somewhat a reward to the loyal customer that have their batt mods already. It limits their customer base because the mods these fit are limited to start with, but if their topper is a high demand item (even if not proven yet!), increases the demand exponentially for their battery holder! I can think of a few examples of this, and am seeing it more.

So the cycle will continue…