"Clones" are actually the REAL THING
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Wow .. good insight. On youtube also, if you don't have netflix Death by China 2013 ( Full DVD ) - YouTube
People don't want to spend huge prices on products that can clearly be made for much less.
Hcigar sees a huge demand for a product,that customers cant get.
They see a guaranteed profit due to the lack of product from the original Modder.
If you don't take care of your customers , someone else will.
That's the reality of business.
The price gap between quality clones and the real deal should b an eye opener.
And honestly, if you haven't held some of the high quality clones like the HCigar king, (1/10th the cost of a surefire original)
Then you need to slow your roll and pick one up.
There's a difference .. But nothing to justify that much of a price gap.
Holding one in hand it is impossible to justify the price gap beyond sheer profit.
A bad business model is really no excuse.
If you meet your customers demands you will never need to worry about counterfeit products.
BTW-
I would feel differently if the price gap was less.
And that's really the crux of the situation. There are allowable limits on how similar items can be when performing a similar/same functions.
In a sense, every genny atty after the Genesis is a clone, knockoff, what-have-you. Yet people pay upwards of $300 for something that originally cost less than $100. Then there's the same, but modified, like the Zen atty.
Personally, I stay away from the logo'ed knockoffs. My preference, but I actually own one - I was ignorant to the logo/design element on this piece. Now, ignorance isn't an excuse to be a scofflaw, but, as a consumer, I got duped.
I guess, for me, it boils down to verbatim or not verbatim. Oh look, it's a tube, with ends, and a 510 - universally accepted - connector. Someone throws someone else's logo on it, then it goes from knockoff to counterfeit.
Anyone have the CNC profile for a Provari??
cg
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That's the thing, there have always been clone or very similar mods made, it's to be expected. Logo's are generally considered a step over the line everywhere and in any industry. The magneto is an nzonic clone but it has some of it's own aesthetics and it's own branding. That's a more normal and accepted path.
Hcigar sees free money stealing someone's design and branding. Vapers see a way to have a copy of something cheap that they can't afford or aren't willing to pay for.
I'm sure the price gap doesn't have to do with the difference in wages, time spent developing a design, money spent on prototypes or any of that.
Premium products are ripped off whether or not there is enough supply. I can buy coach purses for my gf, no problem getting one, same for counterfeit coach purses. It's about people either not accepting they can't afford something or not being willing to earn it. It's not like cigarettes were a cheap habit.
Also, the whole bit of economically challenged people need something is a crock of ...., people have been vaping egos/vamos/808's/510's and getting on just fine.
Assumptions? Yeah, am going on the assumption that people are attacking the clone buyer's characters for siezing upon a legal opportunity. It doesn't matter what laws may be inacted, at the moment, they are legal now - period.
I did and do expect disagreement, I did not expect to be subjected to insinuations of my immorality. That is not a statement of opinion, it is a statement of what someone tries to pass off as fact - a slander. If these people can do no better than to call others names and throw out condescension, they are really reaching the bottom of the barrel for arguments. It then escalates from a debate into a rock throwing contest.
I can throw rocks as well as the next guy.
If I were a Samsung Galaxy user (I'm not) would that make me the scum of the earth for buying one even if I knew of the law suit? No, it would not be my concern as a consumer, all I would have done is buy a phone.
But, I guess according to your morality it would.
I have not had so much as a traffic ticket since 1986 - and that was a ticket for driving over the speed limit. I have never even been charged with a crime. Until now. And that is only in someones mind.
You know what I think? I think it's pretty much a global problem when people try to impress their specific morality on others without tolerance. No good ever comes of it.
The Chinese saw a void in the market and filled it - that's capitalism. You may not like the Chinese' methods and I can understand that. But, crucifying everyone that bought their clones is OK??? hmmm
Are the clones the real thing? As I said before, it just makes good business sense that at least some of the mod makers are playing both ends against the middle. History has proven that the most successful capitalists are not beyond sneaky deals that the public is barred from knowing about through non-discloser agreements. Nobody here knows the complete story behind what is going on and likely never will. So, people pretending they have all the facts and therefore think it's fitting to pass judgment on others as being immoral is just a fabrication of of they're own minds.
You want to pride yourself for your convictions? That's great, I do too. You feel your without sin and can call others sinners? That's just wrong.
Yes, my choosing to buy a clone does say something about me. It says I am a realist.
I bought most of my stuff before the influx of clones. I wasn't really concerned with supporting the makers (after all... everything is a clone of Raidy's invention) but I wanted quality. I would rather have one nice, solid device (or 10) than a bunch of chrome plated stuff that will wear off and so on and so forth. I wanted quality materials.. quality contacts.. a good solid device that wouldn't have a huge voltage drop due to the wrong contacts and that I could get support if something broke or stopped working. My first genesis was a did clone (called the vulcan) and it was not a quality device, the insulators were flimsy and would frequently shred causing the device to short. I learned my lesson.
With all that being said... I visited madvapes today. They have an EHpro kayfun "clone". I looked closely at the kayfun 3.1 eHpro cone. Now I have 3 kayfun lites.. bought from intaste.de and advertised (and priced) as Svoemesto products. Two of my kayfun lites both have a machine mark on their decks in the exact same place. I've read where many other owners have that same machine mark. Well, while examining the "clone" I was surprised to see the same mark on it's deck! I can't be sure it's in the same place as my "real" kayfuns but it's there. It's not even a clone of the kfl but the kf 3.1. The device I saw today was half the price of the units I purchased and looked to be pretty much the same quality (minus the plastic tank part and the logo on the bottom). Were the clones made by the same machine that my "real" ones were made by? Is it common for the machines that make these devices to leave such a mark? I bought 2 kayfun lite+s last week, neither of them have that machine mark on their decks.
Here is a pic of the mark on my kfl that was purchased as a Svoemesto product. I wasn't able to take a picture of the mark on the unit at madvapes today. It's the same mark but I'm not sure it's in the exact same place as my 2 real ones.
With all that being said... I visited madvapes today. They have an EHpro kayfun "clone". I looked closely at the kayfun 3.1 eHpro cone. Now I have 3 kayfun lites.. bought from intaste.de and advertised (and priced) as Svoemesto products. Two of my kayfun lites both have a machine mark on their decks in the exact same place. I've read where many other owners have that same machine mark. Well, while examining the "clone" I was surprised to see the same mark on it's deck! I can't be sure it's in the same place as my "real" kayfuns but it's there. It's not even a clone of the kfl but the kf 3.1. The device I saw today was half the price of the units I purchased and looked to be pretty much the same quality (minus the plastic tank part and the logo on the bottom). Were the clones made by the same machine that my "real" ones were made by? Is it common for the machines that make these devices to leave such a mark? I bought 2 kayfun lite+s last week, neither of them have that machine mark on their decks.
Here is a pic of the mark on my kfl that was purchased as a Svoemesto product. I wasn't able to take a picture of the mark on the unit at madvapes today. It's the same mark but I'm not sure it's in the exact same place as my 2 real ones.
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Well said.
Disclaimer - Post may be repetitive, I got thru page 12 and lost focus in my right eye...
A little insight - I was a welder for the better part of 14 years, mostly working with machinists for various reasons. My outlook on this subject has a lot to do with being familiar with the materials and what goes into producing them. Example - if one of these "high end mechs" that has sold for $200-$300 was priced at $80-$135 I would be much more understanding.
Fist up, fakes clones knockoffs replicas, whatever, I don't like to label them unless I know exactly what they are, however, I will use the term so I can converse with others. The reason I say this follows -
The majority of companies today sell their ideas to other companies - why not, it's easier than doing it yourself. We see this quite often in the automotive industry. A company finds a good platform or engine or transmission and they sell it to companies. Same as the electronics companies. It's not uncommon. The difference is that it's a bit more noticeable in this industry - you can't hide what you've done as easily.
Another common scenario - a small business is formed. They run a bit of their product with a high retail price in the hopes of getting a good start only to find they are not interested in becoming a larger company or something of the sort. So what happens? They have a popular product on the market now and they find themselves in a good position to sell out for a large profit. The software industry is a good example. Facebook ring any bells? I had a company on the same floor as ours do this exact thing. Nascent Systems. They found themselves overwhelmed with work and no interest in managing that scale and lo and behold their was a larger company interested in taking it over for them and they took the payday. Can you blame them?
Also, the product itself. I have had very long discussions about how to hide more cost in different pieces of machinery or other product than I care to remember. You can't hide that cost in a mech. Maybe in a DNA20 device, though not so much as some may think. General rule of thumb for retail is multiply one of your factors - labor, material, or time - by three, and that is your pricepoint. If you have a niche you can get away with a little more. But some of these prices are flat out absurd. Atomizers are slightly different due to their size and how small some of the parts can be, but again, only slightly. Consider a Protank 2 - there's actually more in the engineering, "hidden cost", in there than a standard mech.
Lastly, I see the majority of the posters in this thread are in the US. Don't forget, we live a very charmed life here, lots of laws about copyrights, patents and so on. The world beyond is very different. Matter of fact, in most places, if you take your product to market with no patent or copyright, than it's nobodies fault but your own. And think about it - how many vape products have you seen with a patent number or copyright?
Most of the highend market is driven by unknowing consumers who think that product A should cost that much, or consumers who have enough money not to care.
Until you can prove to me that it was an illegal or improper rip off, then I will continue to buy from the supplier with the best price/quality ratio. It's known as more bang for your buck. Fasttech? Not so sure how they do it, I've got ideas, but damn, their profit margin must be very small.
There is a creative and intellectual part to any manufactured good thats hidden from the user - the manufacturing process itself. Essentially i view the "clones and originals" as separate products. The originals are often focused on quality and marketing while the clones are simply made as cheap as possible or in other words the former following the ideals of a modern first world society and the latter following the industrialist dream. There are challenges to both and IMO, the only ones to blame are the ones making the originals for not capitalizing on the cheap market section themselves. After all, you probably don't dine at the fanciest restaurant in town every day, you're much more likely to eat "knockoff" food and would think it preposterous if a master chef started whining over cheaper alternatives for his famed mashed potatoes.
The 4-post design of the Helios is patented... but that didn't stop China (or even America!) from ripping it off. And it's not even like it's an "amazing innovation", it's just a really good idea, and VHO deserves credit.
I tried a co-worker's genuine kayfun, which is what led me to my H-Cigar Kayfun clone (he hates me now, after dropping 150, and mine looks and vapes the same). Looks exactly the same, feels exactly the same, vapes better, and doesnt have that......crunchy feeling when mounting to the tesla. Just like my Kraken clone from the same company, very well made, and both vape like a freight train. the kayfun tho damn, that sucker I nick named the throat puncher.... SOB kicks the throat like a mule. Need to ease back the nico with that gorgeous beauty. The Kayfun also came in a nice zipper case, vs a cardboard box.
One question, I know there needs to be a space left in the tank of the kayfun when filling, I use the fill valve on the bottom, and I also want to use the stainless tank......how will I know if the tank is getting too full?
One question, I know there needs to be a space left in the tank of the kayfun when filling, I use the fill valve on the bottom, and I also want to use the stainless tank......how will I know if the tank is getting too full?
Anyone interested in a cheap mod not made in china that isn't a clone.
Hamoriko SS (shipping before January, 6) - Mini ECIG
Hamoriko SS (shipping before January, 6) - Mini ECIG
That's actually not a bad looking APV... I would want the titanium version though.
They are not legal period, use of others trademarked images is illegal and has been for a lot of years, in the case of the Nemesis the train logo is trademarked and is protected
Glad I got my popcorn!! good points from both parties, just don't agree with copying logos and serial numbers..
Looks like the simplicity......
And the PS Legacy.
*Edit* Corrected: Sorry for the confusion.
cg
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Looks like the simplicity......
It has a different switch, finish, height per battery size, contacts and diameter. Exactly the same thing...
It looks more like a legacy and the button is similar. That said, the shape is different, the switch has differences (it's the same type as the microstick) and the top is different. The legacy didn't have a flat top stock and this one is much smaller than the aftermarket one made.
Just an option for those not wanting a counterfeit or to spend a lot of money.
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