"Clones" are actually the REAL THING

[Artifex75]

Poo storm aside, I wouldn't be surprised if this happened.

Let's say you're at Kroger and you pick up Ocean Spray Cranberry juice and Kroger Cranberry juice. You notice that the bottle are the same, the label information is identical, etc... Do you think that Kroger has it's own Cranberry bogs? Not likely. Big name manufacturers sell their items under store brand names so that they appeal to a different demographic. (cheap skates) They make less profit on the store brand version, but it's better than losing profit to some other discount brand. I could ramble on about marketing strategies, but suffice it to say, it happens quite regularly.

So, I have no doubt that some manufacturers rebrand items to sell at a discount. Besides, do you think it costs anywhere near the prices their charging on some of these items to mill out some aluminum and plastic bits? There's still a tidy profit margin.

That being said, some clones are badly copied crap. Sometimes you've just got to take a shot in the dark and order that clone to find out.

 

[Jayvaps]

I agree with this.

Since when did it become a mod maker's fault that we buy clones? Sure, you can blame the mod makers for driving you to a clone, but that's the same as saying your spouse drove you to cheating. It's still immoral regardless of your reason. If I like a specific design, I want to support the people that made it first.

I have a Lavafire Lock, which is a Titan clone. But you know what? I own a Titan, Cronus, Helios, and a bunch of other tid bits straight from VHO. I also own a clone (albeit a high end clone) of Yasu's Galileo, but you know what? I own an original Galileo and a stainless version, and I plan on buying a second stainless one. I think I've bought and earned my right to be curious about clones and try them out. They always come out second par, and they are currently collecting dust on my desk. I consider them curiosities. For me, it's when you buy a clone with the thought that the original isn't worth your time or money, that's when it becomes immoral.

Are you really calling people who buy clones immoral if they dont want to spend $200? What give you the right to question peoples morality when it comes to consumer goods?

That takes some awful big cajones to say...let alone believe...even more so where you compare it to cheating on ones spouse. Really???

I guess in your opinion an 11th commandment needs to be added. "Thou shall not purchase chines clones which have the same logo on it"

I guess in your opinion, when I meet my maker, he will send me to eternal damnation because I bought a piece of brass with a logo on it.

Pfft. *rollseyes*

 

[WattWick]

A
...
I guess in your opinion, when I meet my maker, he will send me to eternal damnation because I bought a piece of brass with a logo on it.
...

No. You will end up in a nice comfy place, where the clouds are a bit sticky and smells slightly funny. Angels with 80s hairdos will play harps that can't be tuned properly. And it will be populated with people closely resembling your loved ones.

 

[Richard75]

Are you really calling people who buy clones immoral if they dont want to spend $200? What give you the right to question peoples morality when it comes to consumer goods?

That takes some awful big cajones to say...let alone believe...even more so where you compare it to cheating on ones spouse. Really???

I guess in your opinion an 11th commandment needs to be added. "Thou shall not purchase chines clones which have the same logo on it"

I guess in your opinion, when I meet my maker, he will send me to eternal damnation because I bought a piece of brass with a logo on it.

Pfft. *rollseyes*

Oh relax, it was a metaphor. I was comparing intentions, not situations. If you love a design, understand that design came from somebody's brain, whether or not you're willing to pay what they ask. When you buy an original, you're buying a piece of the maker's brain, along with some of their sweat and frustration and happiness when finished. When you buy a clone (especially one of those FastTech counterfeits), you're buying a stolen idea. They did not ponder over it, they did not care about it. Intellectual property means nothing in this day and age, and that's unfortunate.

If you want to only buy clones and snub the people who really invented them, that's your choice. But don't blame us or the mod makers when creativity and originality sizzles up and disappears.

 

[Kataphraktos]

Your two cents is probably worth half that, especially if it's cloned in this thread.

Value is perceived as what someone is willing to pay for a certain item at a certain time. That being said, there's no way in hell a piece of metal with some threading and switches and a logo on it costs 200 plus dollars for one person to make, let alone an entire company to make. In the beginning, mods were so sought after that supply and demand was very high, so these inventors could make a quick buck off of selling some limited edition toys. But what happens when supply and demand is too much for these small companies? It's simple, a larger company makes a million of them, drives the supply up, lowers the demand and reduces the cost to make them affordable for your average joe. Just because I like a certain design doesn't mean I have to pay an arm and a leg for it, and that's my right because I particularly don't think it's worth that amount. Again, it's what I'm willing to pay for a certain item at a certain time.

I actually know the costs to make things at a CNC shop. Many, perhaps most of the mods considered high-end are not made to precision specs that would warrant the prices charged, if the only consideration is manufacturing quality and cost.

There are a few mods that do actually cost around $100 to produce. These have parts that fit so well you can almost not see seams, and the threads screw on like butter with zero lubrication.

The bit you are missing is that, in the long run, the average joe who now can buy an affordable mod can only afford an affordable mod, if that, because the same process you describe has also destroyed his middle class job and prospects for any such job, and he now works part-time at Walmart, eats using food stamps, and has no hope. The original mod maker works with him. Meanwhile, the owner of that cloning megalith has flown in from Shenzhen to NY buying up real estate, and his children drive around in Ferraris and laugh at the poverty of all the average American joes who were too dumb to protect themselves from predatory mercantilism.

Edit: I'm a dumb American, so I'm allowed to say that.

 

[Kataphraktos]

Are you really calling people who buy clones immoral if they dont want to spend $200?

No, I am calling them immoral because they are benefiting from theft. Last I checked, you get caught buying stolen goods, you get charged with a felony. if you did not know they were stolen, you get the goods confiscated.

There are perfectly good, reliable, well-built non-clone mods available for a fraction of the cost. If you can only afford a Timex, you buy a Timex. If you buy a Rolex knock-off, you are a thief. This is the morality, and this is the law.

Funny thing is, you will never see anyone who has ever actually created something argue against this logic. Only those who have spent their lives as employees question this logic, because they've never been invested in something personally.

I'm not sure why folks with limited incomes don't just buy Innokins and Vamos. Perfectly good mods at reasonable prices, and some actually look pretty good.

 

[sdogre]

Clone is one thing, but when they put the company logo and name on it to pass it off as authentic that is just wrong, I wouldn't have a problem with them just making a budget mod with out the name and logo but when they do that crosses the line

 

[Jayvaps]

No, I am calling them immoral because they are benefiting from theft. Last I checked, you get caught buying stolen goods, you get charged with a felony. if you did not know they were stolen, you get the goods confiscated.

There are perfectly good, reliable, well-built non-clone mods available for a fraction of the cost. If you can only afford a Timex, you buy a Timex. If you buy a Rolex knock-off, you are a thief. This is the morality, and this is the law.

Funny thing is, you will never see anyone who has ever actually created something argue against this logic. Only those who have spent their lives as employees question this logic, because they've never been invested in something personally.

I'm not sure why folks with limited incomes don't just buy Innokins and Vamos. Perfectly good mods at reasonable prices, and some actually look pretty good.

Bull donkey doody.

You can go to jail for selling or importing large quantities of 'fake' goods.

You do not go to jail for nor is it a crime to own a fake rolex watch. This is not buying stolen goods.

But I dont really care about all that junk. It is irrelevant to me. What I took offense to was you judging someones morality.

knock off without a logo. Moral?

Knock off with a logo. Immoral?

Bought the 'real' mods but now are buying a 'fake' and are 'curios' and have 'earned the right'. Moral?

What a load of horse doodie

This is a consumer product. There is no morality assigned when spending money, whether the product has a logo on it or not. Whether the product looks anything like the 'original' or not.

Again, that takes some brass cajones to judge people as immoral because they spent money on a product in a consumer society.

And how nice of you to tell people that are on limited budgets to just buy their innokin and vamos. Again, you like to tell people how to spend their money. **rollseyes**

 

[Kataphraktos]

The NYPD would take issue with your views, as they applied handcuffs. When they raided Chinatown to shut down all the stores selling fakes, sellers and buyers were nabbed in the sting operations.

But, yeah, you're right, everyone deserves a Rolls Royce. Joseph Stalin mandates it!

Bull donkey doody.

You can go to jail for selling or importing large quantities of 'fake' goods.

You do not go to jail for nor is it a crime to own a fake rolex watch. This is not buying stolen goods.

But I dont really care about all that junk. It is irrelevant to me. What I took offense to was you judging someones morality.

knock off without a logo. Moral?

Knock off with a logo. Immoral?

Bought the 'real' mods but now are buying a 'fake' and are 'curios' and have 'earned the right'. Moral?

What a load of horse doodie

This is a consumer product. There is no morality assigned when spending money, whether the product has a logo on it or not. Whether the product looks anything like the 'original' or not.

Again, that takes some brass cajones to judge people as immoral because they spent money on a product in a consumer society.

And how nice of you to tell people that are on limited budgets to just buy their innokin and vamos. Again, you like to tell people how to spend their money. **rollseyes**

 

[Jayvaps]

The NYPD would take issue with your views, as they applied handcuffs. When they raided Chinatown to shut down all the stores selling fakes, sellers and buyers were nabbed in the sting operations.

But, yeah, you're right, everyone deserves a Rolls Royce. Joseph Stalin mandates it!

There are a whole lot of things that the NYPD does that I would totally disagree with. In fact, there are a whole lot of things the NY government in general does that I disagree with. It is just one of the reasons I left that nanny state long ago and have no desire to ever go back.

I do hope they keep their cancer in their own little state and not try to infect the rest of the country.

But you made me lol at the comment on everyone deserves to own a rolls royce. You just showed your cards. You buy these mods as a status symbol, and thus are ...... that others can 'fake' the same 'status' that you have. You dont care about the mod makers, you care about your own feelings of superiority over those that should just stick with their 'innokins and vamos'.

Oh how you must like looking down your nose at people. Your goal of calling people immoral is to shame them so you can keep your own sense of superiority over them. How very nice of you. Now go jump into your rolls royce and drive over some 'peons' on the road that get in your way.

 

[Kataphraktos]

And how nice of you to tell people that are on limited budgets to just buy their innokin and vamos. Again, you like to tell people how to spend their money. **rollseyes**

I know lots of folks on limited budgets who save up and buy a Provari or GP or GG.

But that's soooo 1950's. In our new amoral, credit card, twerking, anything-goes society, why save when you can just steal?

And, you know what? I make a LOT less money than I used to 10 years ago. Vape gear is my only splurge, the rest of my life is very very Spartan. So don't judge me for judging those who refuse to live within their means and within the bounds of morality and the law.

 

[Kataphraktos]

There are a whole lot of things that the NYPD does that I would totally disagree with. In fact, there are a whole lot of things the NY government in general does that I disagree with. It is just one of the reasons I left that nanny state long ago and have no desire to ever go back.

I do hope they keep their cancer in their own little state and not try to infect the rest of the country.

But you made me lol at the comment on everyone deserves to own a rolls royce. You just showed your cards. You buy these mods as a status symbol, and thus are ...... that others can 'fake' the same 'status' that you have. You dont care about the mod makers, you care about your own feelings of superiority over those that should just stick with their 'innokins and vamos'.

Oh how you must like looking down your nose at people. Your goal of calling people immoral is to shame them so you can keep your own sense of superiority over them. How very nice of you. Now go jump into your rolls royce and drive over some 'peons' on the road that get in your way.

You are very very wrong, and very very insulting in your ridiculous assumptions.

In my perfect world, everybody would have a Rolls Royce. But that is not the world we live in. The mod makers are the only party I am considering in this discussion.

Let me repeat this: the mod makers are the only party I am considering in this discussion.

In fact, I am playing advisor on an upcoming "fancy RBA tank" for the masses: something made from quality materials, super-easy to rebuild, and affordable enough to attract most anyone currently using cheap, poisonous Chinese cartos and clearos.

Also, how bloody dare you: I've given away hundreds of dollars of gear and juices to people in need on these forums. What have you done for anybody lately, other than steal intellectual property and boast about it?

 

[Richard75]

Does anyone remember Gus Van Sant's 1998 remake of Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho? Not only was it a remake, it was nearly a frame by frame copy of the original, just with different people. And you know what happened? It failed miserably, as it should have. In fact, I would call that plagiarism. And I defy you to find someone who would prefer the remake over Hitchcock's original, or even consider it in the same league, and not be cast out by the film world. And this is not a case of "to each their own", this is a case of someone stole Hitchcock's images and slapped his own name on the credits.

 

[Jayvaps]

I know lots of folks on limited budgets who save up and buy a Provari or GP or GG.

But that's soooo 1950's. In our new amoral, credit card, twerking, anything-goes society, why save when you can just steal?

And, you know what? I make a LOT less money than I used to 10 years ago. Vape gear is my only splurge, the rest of my life is very very Spartan. So don't judge me for judging those who refuse to live within their means and within the bounds of morality and the law.

You are not judging people for living within their means. You are judging people immoral for actually spending within their means. And calling them immoral for buying a piece of stainless steel with a freaking logo on it.

You are the consumer morality police in your own mind. Judging people worth as a member of the human race because they chose to not spend a couple of c-notes on a piece of stainless steel.

Some of the prices for some of these mods? If I am gonna drop that much on a hunk of stainless steel, it better be able to sustain the pressure of a high velocity projectile being fired out of it.

Just admit it. You just don't like people having the same shiny toy that you have for a fraction of the price. Whereas in the firearm world, there is typically a drastic difference between a $200 firearm, vs a $700 firearm, vs a $2000 firearm, in mech mod....not so much.

That said, when I was shopping for a little pocket carry .380, I opted to spend a little more on the ruger lcp than on the keltec. Funny thing about that, the ruger could have been called a 'clone' of the keltec but still cost more.

 

[Technonut]

I think it's ironic that most folks who post about the expense of high-end devices never blinked an eye when (in most cases) throwing down $200.00 + a month on tobacco for many years... For the past 3 years, I budget the same amount I spent on tobacco for vape-gear. ($255.00 a month) If I see something I like, I buy it. Whatever is left gets spent on other things.

I don't kid myself.. Vaping for me, is a substitute for smoking. It's about harm-reduction, not the money. Vaping does not save me much $$ compared to tobacco.. If I quit vaping today, I would be right back to buying my weekly carton + cigars within a couple of days anyhow.


What?!!? $255.00 a month for tobacco, paper, and filters? One would have to be totally insane to pay that kind of $$ for that.. I have much better and important things to do with my $$..

 

[Jayvaps]

In fact, I am playing advisor on an upcoming "fancy RBA tank" for the masses: something made from quality materials, super-easy to rebuild, and affordable enough to attract most anyone currently using cheap, poisonous Chinese cartos and clearos.

Also, how bloody dare you: I've given away hundreds of dollars of gear and juices to people in need on these forums. What have you done for anybody lately, other than steal intellectual property and boast about it?

Well Good for you. Now how about you stop judging people's morality. Again, that is what made me jump into this conversation really. I dont care if you like clones or not. If you think they are a detriment or not. If you think the originals are made in china or not. But calling people immoral? Jeez. Get over yourself.

And FYI, I have handed out gear and juice to plenty of people down my way. Why? Because I want them to quit smoking and be happy with vaping. I am not in this for some ego status buildup.

FYI, I have been sporting my nemesis clone for a couple of weeks now. When someone asks me about it, I am very upfront about it. "This is a knock off that I bought from China. I paid less than $30. The original costs about $200" You know what? Not 1, not 1 person has been all high and mighty like you would be "Oh my gosh! You bought a clone!! That is sooo immoral!! I dont even want to know you or talk to you" Nope, not 1. Most people seem to say "$200? That is nuts!" That is not to say I have anything against someone that spends $200, $500, or $3000 on a mod personally. I dont care. I really dont, because it is their own damn money. I wouldnt judge their finances just like I would not judge their morality over how they choose to spend their money.

 

[Richard75]

I am not in this for some ego status buildup.

Oh, but you are. By previously stating that a Nemesis copy has faked the status of the real one, you're saying that your $30 china counterfeit has the same (superficial) status as an authentic $200 original. I think if someone spends $200 on a Nemesis, they have a right to be proud of their investment. Just because you own a fake doesn't mean you can fake the status and pride of an original. All this morality discussion aside, I think most would agree that's bollocks in and of itself.

My most expensive mod so far is a Cronus, which was 230 bucks when it first came out. I love it dearly. Everything about it is perfect, in my opinion. If someone with a clone came along (and I am hearing rumors of a 1:1 copy), I'd be kinda ...... if someone claimed their copy was just as good as my authentic one, or that I shouldn't have a bit of pride for owning a real one.

If a scientist were to clone you... who would you believe is better? If your clone worked for less money, or was cheaper to feed, etc... who would your boss or spouse pick? Sometimes it's just about what was created first.

 

[Kataphraktos]

You are not judging people for living within their means. You are judging people immoral for actually spending within their means. And calling them immoral for buying a piece of stainless steel with a freaking logo on it.

You are the consumer morality police in your own mind. Judging people worth as a member of the human race because they chose to not spend a couple of c-notes on a piece of stainless steel.

Some of the prices for some of these mods? If I am gonna drop that much on a hunk of stainless steel, it better be able to sustain the pressure of a high velocity projectile being fired out of it.

Just admit it. You just don't like people having the same shiny toy that you have for a fraction of the price. Whereas in the firearm world, there is typically a drastic difference between a $200 firearm, vs a $700 firearm, vs a $2000 firearm, in mech mod....not so much.

That said, when I was shopping for a little pocket carry .380, I opted to spend a little more on the ruger lcp than on the keltec. Funny thing about that, the ruger could have been called a 'clone' of the keltec but still cost more.

That logo on that piece of steel? That's someone's property. It belongs to someone other than you. If someone broke into your house to take something that belonged to you, you would use that Ruger to shoot them.

Some of those features on the clones and copies? Those are patented features. They are the intellectual property of another person. They do not belong to everybody, they do not belong to the cloner, they do not belong to you, they belong only to that person. Using them without permission or licensing is illegal. Ignore the fact that those holding the patents cannot afford to assert their own rights because it would cost them millions in legal fees to recover tens of thousands in restitution.

Actually, don't ignore that. The only reason you get to steal is because they are rendered defenseless by the costs of the legal system that is supposed to protect them. There you are, sir. You are preying on those who cannot defend themselves. i guess that is the New American Way.

You don't get to pick and choose what is property and what is public domain.

That is the height of arrogance.

Some of the prices for some of these mods? If I am gonna drop that much on a hunk of stainless steel, it better be able to sustain the pressure of a high velocity projectile being fired out of it.

So what you are saying here is, since you don't like the price of a mod, you are just going to steal it. You are a poster child for gun control.

 

[Etownguy]

Nice guitar. You don't mind if I "borrow" all your music and use it to make a living? I'm just double dipping. I'm OK with that. In fact, I appreciate it. Thanks!

I criticize such comments only because there are perfectly good cheap mods that do not steal from the designs of others, and in fact have their own innovative design and aesthetic. No excuse for supporting thieves with so many good, reliable devices in the $40-$80 range out there.

called a cover band..

 

[edyle]

my thoughts. I feel that the ONLY way these clones are actual 1:1 "copies" is that they are actually the real deal. I am willing to be that the designers of the King, Nemesis, and Chi You for example are actually selling the design to FastTech to make more money over more sales while still offering their own at high end prices. I think they'd be fools not to do this, and with new models being cloned even before the actual model is released just furthers to convince me that these Chinese "Knock Offs" are actually the real thing being mass produced by designed provided by the designers themselves.

This goes for RBA/RDA's as well. The Trident for example is exactly the same 1:1 as the real one. The Kraken clone...same thing...exact copy. It's just far too convenient to call them clones when they are exact 1:1 as the supposed "real deal" item.

There...I've said it.

The "clones" are actually the real thing.

Are you confused?
Tom might make a good high quality clone of Dicks tank, but Harry might cut corners and make something cheap.
So maybe Tom's good quality clone is a 1:1 copy, but there's no guarantee that a clone will be up to any standard.

Maybe Harry's clone clearo will give you lead poisoning;

btw i dumped the liquid from a plastic clearo last night; much the same liquid was sitting in that plastic for at least a week, and that clearo I noticed was gradually tasting worse and worse till i decided to dump it; tasted like the plastic was disolving into the eliq.