"Clones" are actually the REAL THING

[Jawden]

I'm not willing to pay 200 dollars for a polished metal tube. If you got that kind of money laying around fine, go nuts. I bought my mechanical on fasttech, It works amazingly well, high quality, smooth threads. I'm actually more annoyed that is has logos and serial numbers on it than that it's a replica/knock-off/clone because I like the minimalist look.

i second this. i honestly cant justify spending a good amount of my paycheck on a "battery holder" when i can get a similar, sliightly lesser quality of course but very similar replica that does pretty much the exact same thing for ~$20 or less. especially when i have bills to pay, diapers, food, etc. to buy. and i also agree that i dont necessarily condone the use of markings or engravings cuz i too enjoy the minimalist look.

dont get me wrong, if i could afford it, and i wasnt such a tight-... i might buy the authentic, but right now, it doesnt fit my budget and is not me.

honestly, i know its been said before, but i think the whole clone vs authentic feud needs to be put to rest. the main goal we are all trying to attain is being smoke-free right? whether it be a clone or authentic, dont you feel great because youre not smoking?

just my .02 haha.

on another note, im glad to see that this is more of a..."friendly" debate! haha.

 

[classwife]

Moved to APV Discussion from General E-Smoking Discussion

 

[Kataphraktos]

I'm okay with clones because it's my money and it's a buyer's world.

I'm a trader on Wall Street. I keep telling these commie Occupy Wall Street hippie filth the same thing, but they continue to hate me! It's my money and it's a buyer's world!

 

[Kataphraktos]

I find it hilarious that most Americans have yet to make the connection between the abnegation of property rights by large corporations and rogue states like China, and the annihilation of the American middle class.

 

[Kataphraktos]

Point taken. And I agree. But....
Let me make an addendum to my earlier statement.....I do not condone the blatant stealing of the logo/name of the original designer. That is wrong. The functional design itself, on the other hand, I have no problem with. Especially if it's an innovative design. I would NOT buy a clone simply to make it seem like I had a trendy piece of vape gear with a revered name/logo on it.

Curt.

Here's an example outside of e-cigs where a major manufacturer couldn't protect their rights in a case where they clearly got ripped off:

BMW loses court battle to chinese X5 clone

I'm thinking a lot of folks will look at a fight between two foreign companies and think, "Meh. Who cares. They're both swimming in money. They can afford a bit of cloning."

But what about this woman?

Not cool Urban Outfitters, not cool.

Now you have an American whose livelihood depends on being able to protect her intellectual property, but who will in all likelihood be forced to go back to some menial job, as some fat cat at Urban Outfitters add another five cents to the price of his stock options.

Something tells me you folks have a heck of a lot more sympathy for a young, pretty American woman who makes innovative jewelry designs than you do for a large German car company that makes innovative cars or some swarthy hairy Greek (I can say that, I am a swarthy, hairy Greek) who makes innovative mods.

And that, folks, is the very definition of prejudice.

Alas, much like a criminal who deserves quality representation and a fair trial, all of these entities deserve the protection of our laws, because if our laws do not protect all of us, they will end up protecting none of us.

 

[justinred]

Bacon. They should clone bacon and sell it dirt cheap.

 

[Nibiru2012]

my thoughts. I feel that the ONLY way these clones are actual 1:1 "copies" is that they are actually the real deal. I am willing to be that the designers of the King, Nemesis, and Chi You for example are actually selling the design to FastTech to make more money over more sales while still offering their own at high end prices. I think they'd be fools not to do this, and with new models being cloned even before the actual model is released just furthers to convince me that these Chinese "Knock Offs" are actually the real thing being mass produced by designed provided by the designers themselves.

This goes for RBA/RDA's as well. The Trident for example is exactly the same 1:1 as the real one. The Kraken clone...same thing...exact copy. It's just far too convenient to call them clones when they are exact 1:1 as the supposed "real deal" item.

There...I've said it.

The "clones" are actually the real thing.

Many times this is true! As the old axiom states: Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

The Chinese are capitalists to the extreme. They have been that way for centuries. The Han China dynasty became the largest economy of the ancient world. Now don't confuse their government with the rest of the population. They are very inventive and resourceful. Remember this culture was centuries ahead of the rest of the world in art, ceramics, engineering, poetry, philosophy, naval theory, invention of gunpowder, fireworks, metallurgy, water works, etc., way before the Western World. There is even evidence of them discovering the New World centuries ahead of Europe. When Europe was suffering through the Dark Ages the Chinese were flourishing and making many advances. Their biggest problem was that they shunned the outside world and their warlords were constantly slaughtering each other and their associated fiefdoms. This ultimately was their downfall even though Genghis Khan and his progeny tried to consolidate the vast countryside, which they did but ultimately only lasted for a few centuries. In the 20th Century Mao and his cohorts nearly destroyed the intellectual and manufacturing base with the "Cultural Revolution" murdering millions of teachers, professors, engineers, intellectuals, artists, etc., all in the name of "The People".

The Chinese will the THE main driving economic force of the 21st Century in the same manner the USA was in the 20th Century. Now I am not professing a personal love fest for the Chinese, I'm just stating fact. All one has to do is to look at how much of the US Treasury bonds they hold and will scare the bejeezus out of you! If they ever decide to call in those bonds... well.

The downside is that they're polluting the country at an alarming pace. My brother worked for ARAMCO oil in Saudi Arabia for over 25 years in the natural gas side of the business. He spent a lot of time in China in the 90's helping them develop their gas resources. He told me that even then, in many cities, the pollution was so bad that on a clear cloudless sunny day all one could see was a gray brown haze for miles and the sun was nearly blotted out. The air was so acrid and choking that many citizens wore masks, even gas masks to commute on their bicycles.

Now this is my opinion here; but I believe that FastTech is merely an etailer for the various products they offer. I don't believe they own any production facilities at all. They're more like a Newegg. They merely stock the items produced by other 3rd party vendors, similar to the way .......... is compared to Alibaba. Alibaba is strictly for wholesalers only while .......... is the online retail outlet for Alibaba.

As some of you who do your own auto repair will attest to, many times aftermarket auto parts are of better quality and less expensive than the factory OEM parts. The same holds true for what is occurring in the ecig parts market. Yes, there are unscrupulous vendors out there and we'll always have them. That's the way capitalism works.

Regardless of where a product is manufactured and/or what firm made it, the proverbial axiom: CAVEAT EMPTOR - Let the buyer beware, always holds true. In addition any product designed and produced by man can and will fail at some time.

Again, this post is not a China love fest. I'm just explaining the economic realities of the current world marketplace.

 

[spaceman84]

Clone? Collectible Replica?

What a load of BS...

Would you ever talk of a cloned Rolex? Or a collectible replica of a Louis Vuitton handbag?

Yes and yes. I've owned several replica watches. You can get some EXCELLENT replicas, especially when it come to Rolex. The movement inside may not be as expensive and you won't find any solid gold cases, but there are truly excellent quality replica watches out there in the $300-500 range.

The same goes for purses. I think they may be even easier to duplicate since most are just fabric or leather with some small metal accents.

 

[.45acp]

No Virginia, Clones are not the real "thing", they are a rip-off of the person that devotes the time, energy and money into the development and production of the "real thing".

It is called counterfeiting.......try it with money and you land in prison. There is no excuse for purchasing counterfeits.....all you are doing is supporting foreign corporations screwing a small independent business person.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[sdogre]

Can you purchase clones/counterfeits with photocopied money?

 

[Camaroboi13]

There is no excuse for purchasing counterfeits.....all you are doing is supporting foreign corporations screwing a small independent business person.

Just my 2 cents.

Your two cents is probably worth half that, especially if it's cloned in this thread.

Value is perceived as what someone is willing to pay for a certain item at a certain time. That being said, there's no way in hell a piece of metal with some threading and switches and a logo on it costs 200 plus dollars for one person to make, let alone an entire company to make. In the beginning, mods were so sought after that supply and demand was very high, so these inventors could make a quick buck off of selling some limited edition toys. But what happens when supply and demand is too much for these small companies? It's simple, a larger company makes a million of them, drives the supply up, lowers the demand and reduces the cost to make them affordable for your average joe. Just because I like a certain design doesn't mean I have to pay an arm and a leg for it, and that's my right because I particularly don't think it's worth that amount. Again, it's what I'm willing to pay for a certain item at a certain time.

 

[.45acp]

Your two cents is probably worth half that, especially if it's cloned in this thread.

Value is perceived as what someone is willing to pay for a certain item at a certain time. That being said, there's no way in hell a piece of metal with some threading and switches and a logo on it costs 200 plus dollars for one person to make, let alone an entire company to make. In the beginning, mods were so sought after that supply and demand was very high, so these inventors could make a quick buck off of selling some limited edition toys. But what happens when supply and demand is too much for these small companies? It's simple, a larger company makes a million of them, drives the supply up, lowers the demand and reduces the cost to make them affordable for your average joe. Just because I like a certain design doesn't mean I have to pay an arm and a leg for it, and that's my right because I particularly don't think it's worth that amount. Again, it's what I'm willing to pay for a certain item at a certain time.

Any excuse for wetting the bed ...eh.

BTW, my issue is exact counterfeits, logos, engraving act.

 

[K_Tech]

Value is perceived as what someone is willing to pay for a certain item at a certain time. That being said, there's no way in hell a piece of metal with some threading and switches and a logo on it costs 200 plus dollars for one person to make, let alone an entire company to make.

I'm not really arguing, but you're sort of contradicting yourself there. Just because you're not willing to pay $200 for a mech doesn't mean someone else will feel the same way.

And as to a mech not "costing" $200 to make, there are just too many financial differences between a giant manufacturing center and a guy with a couple of friends turning out mechs in their basement to list.

I don't think it's fair to say that a company with thousands of employees and millions of dollars worth of machining equipment and easy access to materials (not to mention being government subsidized) turning out a mech for $20 is proof that a guy in his basement should be able to spit them out for $20. If you're capable of producing 10,000 units a week, your costs are going to be significantly lower than the guy that makes 100 a week (or less).

Just because I like a certain design doesn't mean I have to pay an arm and a leg for it, and that's my right because I particularly don't think it's worth that amount. Again, it's what I'm willing to pay for a certain item at a certain time.

I can relate to that.

 

[UncleChuck]

No Virginia, Clones are not the real "thing",

You aren't qualified to say that anymore than the OP is qualified to say they are in fact the real thing.

Consider the following scenario:

ModMakerA designs a fancy mech mod. ModMakerA pays Chinese factory $15 per unit to produce said design. Chinese factory ships product to ModMakerA, who sells it for $300 claiming it's a hand crafted boutique item. ModmakerA reaps in obscene profits by tricking and taking advantage of vaping community. Chinese, in addition to shipping units to ModMakerA, sells additional units out the back door for $20.

RandomVaperA buys a $300 ModMakerA creation.

RandomVaperB buys a $40 "clone"

RandomVaperA and RandomvaperB quite literally own the exact same product, based on the exact same designs, made with the exact same materials, produced in the exact same factory, by the exact same hands. One paid $260 for hopes and dreams, however.

This type of thing happens all the time. It's not uncommon, and it's very reasonable to be concerned about it.

Has this scenario been proven as absolute fact for some mod makers/sellers? Not that I'm aware of. But some mods smell strongly of fish, and until these mod makers want to release videos of them actually producing their mods (like Ihybrid did) then us members of the community are well within our right to be suspicious.

High-end mods are priced high because it's an expectation they are a small scale, hand crafted item. Not mass produced china-wears re-branded as high end. If makers are selling mass produced Chinese mods as a hand crafted boutique item, they are taking advantage of the vaping community and should be exposed, not defended.

 

[.45acp]

You aren't qualified to say that anymore than the OP is qualified to say they are in fact the real thing.

Consider the following scenario:

ModMakerA designs a fancy mech mod. ModMakerA pays Chinese factory $15 per unit to produce said design. Chinese factory ships product to ModMakerA, who sells it for $300 claiming it's a hand crafted boutique item. ModmakerA reaps in obscene profits by tricking and taking advantage of vaping community. Chinese, in addition to shipping units to ModMakerA, sells additional units out the back door for $20.

RandomVaperA buys a $300 ModMakerA creation.

RandomVaperB buys a $40 "clone"

RandomVaperA and RandomvaperB quite literally own the exact same product, based on the exact same designs, made with the exact same materials, produced in the exact same factory, by the exact same hands. One paid $260 for hopes and dreams, however.

This type of thing happens all the time. It's not uncommon, and it's very reasonable to be concerned about it.

Has this scenario been proven as absolute fact for some mod makers/sellers? Not that I'm aware of. But some mods smell strongly of fish, and until these mod makers want to release videos of them actually producing their mods (like Ihybrid did) then us members of the community are well within our right to be suspicious.

High-end mods are priced high because it's an expectation they are a small scale, hand crafted item. Not mass produced china-wears re-branded as high end. If makers are selling mass produced Chinese mods as a hand crafted boutique item, they are taking advantage of the vaping community and should be exposed, not defended.

So, any evidence of said activities to go along with your lengthy diatribe of supposition?

 

[spawnsharks]

So... I understand seeing the price difference, and thinking you['re getting screwed when Product A is $100 at Retailer A, and $10 at Wholesaler B.. you think "Why would I pay $100 for a $10 product?"

But consider, if you will.. .

You are the designer of AwesomeProductB. You spent a year designing, engineering, testing and funding AwesomeProductB. Your profit margin will be $50 per unit wholesale to RetailerB who will, in turn, mark it up to $100 to the customer.

It's time to go to production, so you save a few bucks by moving production to ChineseFactoryB. Your mega order arrives, you distribute, promote and advertise. This cuts into your profit by a considerable chunk.. but if you can sell more AwesomeProductB, it's well worth it.. after all, you spent a year developing this, and it's a great idea! Everyone wants AwesomeProductB.. and with the test group, you have already gotten feedback for WayBetterProduct C! You're doing well.

HOWEVER, not two weeks after AwesomeProductB hits the shelves, ChineseKnockoffB hits the shelves... at $30 retail. Based on the same specs you sent to ChineseFactoryB. Of course, people buy ChineseKnockoffB, as it's the same exact thing for $70 less!

But you developed it, tested it, engineered it and marketed it. Maybe you can recoup some of that when WayBetterProductC hits the shelves.

You are stuck with SuperMegaOrderB, and are ready to send specs for WayBetterProductC to ChineseFactoryB. You have to drop your prices to RetailOutletA, ironically, to compete with yourself. You got burned last time, so you decide to work with USFactoryD at a very increased production cost. You do the math, and the profit will be doable because you aren't going to have to compete with ChineseKnockoffC.

However, ChineseFactoryB already has a copy of the specs of WayBetterProductC,and your NDA is no good in ChineseCopyrightLawD.

You throw in the towel.

Public will never get to see SuperImprovedProductD, because they chose to buy ChineseKnockoffB way back when. Good thing you bought ChineseKnockoffB since ChineseKnockoffC was no good due to incomplete proof from the designer, and SuperimprovedProductD will be a limited run for DesignerA's close friends and family.

 

[Steamix]

Wouldn't surprise me if designers sold their designs to Chinese manufacturers. Simply out of necessity. This way they get some revenue. Cuz if they don't sell the designs, it gets copied anyway. Intellectual property squabbles don't even slow the assembly lines there...

 

[LDS714]

Wouldn't surprise me if designers sold their designs to Chinese manufacturers. Simply out of necessity. This way they get some revenue. Cuz if they don't sell the designs, it gets copied anyway. Intellectual property squabbles don't even slow the assembly lines there...

But OTOH, why should they bother to pay royalties, licensing or even for the plans if they can buy or even borrow one unit and replicate it? Especially if there are no negative consequences?

 

[Rule62]

I've pretty much stayed out of the clone arguments. But what I find odd is the continual justification for buying them, based on 'strawman' theories. The idea that the small mod makers are selling their designs to the Chinese manufacturers, reminds me of walking past a homeless guy without dropping a buck in his hat because 'He's probably got a Cadillac parked around the corner'. Both cases are simply creating a scenario, and then justifying our actions, based on that scenario.
For me, there's no need to justify anything, whether I buy clones (which I won't), or originals (which I do). I don't have to justify my preference to anybody, and neither does anyone else.

 

[Richard75]

I've pretty much stayed out of the clone arguments. But what I find odd is the continual justification for buying them, based on 'strawman' theories. The idea that the small mod makers are selling their designs to the Chinese manufacturers, reminds me of walking past a homeless guy without dropping a buck in his hat because 'He's probably got a Cadillac parked around the corner'. Both cases are simply creating a scenario, and then justifying our actions, based on that scenario.
For me, there's no need to justify anything, whether I buy clones (which I won't), or originals (which I do). I don't have to justify my preference to anybody, and neither does anyone else.

I agree with this.

Since when did it become a mod maker's fault that we buy clones? Sure, you can blame the mod makers for driving you to a clone, but that's the same as saying your spouse drove you to cheating. It's still immoral regardless of your reason. If I like a specific design, I want to support the people that made it first.

I have a Lavafire Lock, which is a Titan clone. But you know what? I own a Titan, Cronus, Helios, and a bunch of other tid bits straight from VHO. I also own a clone (albeit a high end clone) of Yasu's Galileo, but you know what? I own an original Galileo and a stainless version, and I plan on buying a second stainless one. I think I've bought and earned my right to be curious about clones and try them out. They always come out second par, and they are currently collecting dust on my desk. I consider them curiosities. For me, it's when you buy a clone with the thought that the original isn't worth your time or money, that's when it becomes immoral.