Clones Ethical?

[ZTKT]

I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I am curious to know if any others have conflict with mods being replicated and/or cloned?

I myself feel shamefull for buying products that have been copied/cloned, but found myself picking up a K100.
As much as I would have loved to pick up an original Empire we all know this is not a readily available mod.

My urge for a mech mod like the Empire led me to the oh so cheap k100 that has been praised by people here as well as in vape shops.

How does everyone else feel about this?

 

[tidegirl]

Ethical? No, not really IMO. Someone worked hard to develop the product, just for it to be ripped off by China. But it is the nature of the beast. Many of the things that are being cloned are very expensive and/or limited availability. So if you can get a clone and can't get an original, I say go for it. I think I am about to get an AGA-T, but there is no way I would spend the $$$ on a genesis before I know if I will even be able to successfully build a wick and coil for it. If I get good at building them, then I would buy a Genesis if it is available, just to see if it really is better.

 

[random25]

The real question is flavor-aid ethical?

 

[MDV39]

someone also invented bar soap. Cloning happens all the time and I'm sure everyone who has come up with an expensive mod or atty is doing quite well. I always feel like you get what you pay for. It never hurts to have options for those of us who don't have the money to spend or the patience to compete with 3000 people for 20 mods.

 

[bnrkwest]

Cloning seems to run rampant in the ecig world. Unless some has a patent and someone infringes, I guess it will just keep on going. bnrk

 

[zyglrox]

It really depends on the mod. Some out there have plenty of models floating around that may just be sitting there unsold because of clones. But I think the reason that clones are so popular right now has to do with the accessibility of some of the more "popular" high-end mods out there right now. Everybody wants one, but only a minority are lucky/privileged enough to actually own one. There are two factors involved. One is price and the other is the ratio of supply to demand. If I only had a nickel for every time I learned of a mod I would do anything to get my hands on only to find there were no more being produced, I would own two of each one! I'm sorry, but if you don't want to/can't manage to make enough of/make available enough a product that I really want for me to get it at a reasonable (or even unreasonable) price, then I'm forced to either buy a clone or go without.

From a business perspective, you'd have to be excruciatingly imperceptive not to understand the profit margin there, given the general simplicity and reproducibility of the designs versus what people would be willing to pay for the manageable quality and performance expected from said product. Of course, even the bottom dogs can benefit from these conditions. But it's not because they're evil monsters. It's as much a product of the desire for profits as it is a product of limited supply from the people creating the initial market with the introduction of these products. They spawned markets they couldn't fully please and clones are the result. That demand is still out there, you know? You can't blame others for stepping up to fill those gaps. That's money the producers of the originals could be making too if they were pursuing it.

You wanna know the solution to clones? Out-compete them with your originals. If it's popular enough to have numerous clones, then it's popular enough to blow them out of the water, economically. There should be more than one way for these inventors to capitalize on their ideas without losing portions of their markets to clones. If the product is really good enough to be cloned rampantly, then there is a feasible, profitable business model that can better take charge of the market portion being ravaged by clones to be schemed up. Barring that, you have chosen your niche as a premium, boutique vendor with an inherently small, but loyal market by your own business model. You can blame whoever you want, but given the nature of both business and humans, the outcome is quite predictable there.

 

[Orobas]

This horse has been beaten to death. On one hand, there's seldom a patent involved. On the other hand, these expensive expensive devices are seldom produced in sufficient quantity to meet the demand for them, even when someone's willing to pay premium for it.

So. Since the fancy mods and devices still sell out within a few minutes of being in stock, I don't believe that the knockoffs and clones are hurting them a single tiny bit.

Or conversely, it's kind of hard to claim a pipe with a screw in it should somehow be proprietary.

 

[HauntedMyst]

I would ask, how much of what is being done in the ecig world is actually new and patentable? Though I am new to this, much of it doesn't actually seem new though its new to this purpose. We're mainly talking about batteries and wicks. Is it ethical to make a clone of existing, non-patented technology? Yes. Is it ethical to make a device called a Provari that isn't one, yet is branded Provari? No.

 

[llamainmypocket]

I apologize if this has already been discussed, but I am curious to know if any others have conflict with mods being replicated and/or cloned?

I myself feel shamefull for buying products that have been copied/cloned, but found myself picking up a K100.
As much as I would have loved to pick up an original Empire we all know this is not a readily available mod.

My urge for a mech mod like the Empire led me to the oh so cheap k100 that has been praised by people here as well as in vape shops.

How does everyone else feel about this?

What is or isn't ethical is entirely up to each person to decide as it's subjective. I think many times people want to behave ethically, they either A) want to be seen positively by their peers as a sort of social order, or B) want to feel good about themselves. Before you pass judgment know that both are important for people.

On the subject of its state as socially ethical, I would have to say, no, It's like stealing an idea. On the subject of feeling good about yourself, I'd say, yes, it can be justified. Do you feel guilty for using your Android Phone? The modern smart phone was cloned from the iPhone. The fact that manufacturers did not respect that intellectual property is what lead to its evolution. Its a net gain for society.

However, there is one nagging issue. Buying something that claims to be something that isn't is like taking part in a lie. It's also like encouraging a lie.

I'd buy something that looks like a joyetech but identifies itself as something different but I would not buy something that lies.

I get deep. Sorry if you suffered from that.

 

[SilentEcho13]

I don't really have an issue with clones, provided they perform well at least. Some devices I'd gladly pay a bunch of money for, like my Provari, Billet Box, or a Reo. These all have some sort of unique functionality. In terms of comparing a Provari to the other Chinese VV/VW mods out there, I still think it's worth it. It was my first "elite" mod after the Lavatube. Otherwise, I do think I'd be perfectly happy with a Zmax or something similar.

The issue here are the mechanical mods for me. Honestly, a Chi You, a GG, a Caravela, or any of these metal tubes aren't worth nearly as much as they sell for. They're just battery holders with fancy branding. They get the great "price gouge" treatment when they go up for sale. I almost feel bad for the guys spending $300+ on a metal tube that holds a battery. It won't perform any better than a comparable mechanical mod, it just looks nice. Limited functionality, high price tag, like a Rolex.

Here's where ethics comes in for me though. If a clone was produced for a device that's frequently out of stock or ridiculously expensive, then bring on the clones. Producing a device with a low input cost then selling it at a huge profit margin is pretty unethical in my opinion. If patents and trademarks were bluntly violated in the "cloning process", then I see a red flag.

If they clone a readily available device that has a decent price tag, then I'd go with the original all the way. This is where cloning strikes me as unethical.

 

[llamainmypocket]

This horse has been beaten to death. On one hand, there's seldom a patent involved. On the other hand, these expensive expensive devices are seldom produced in sufficient quantity to meet the demand for them, even when someone's willing to pay premium for it.

So. Since the fancy mods and devices still sell out within a few minutes of being in stock, I don't believe that the knockoffs and clones are hurting them a single tiny bit.

Or conversely, it's kind of hard to claim a pipe with a screw in it should somehow be proprietary.

That's very logical and shows some knowledge of markets.

 

[kanifee]

Imitation drives innovation, if there is nothing to drive a company to produce unique products why change something that sells well because it is the only place you can get it.
Its good for keeping an open market that has healthy competition, obviously quality is of different levels but when a quality company faces a product in the market that although isn't of as high a quality or premium still does the same job as well and is still of decent quality they strive to innovate with fresh ideas, after all china isn't forging the way just contently following the pack.

 

[ScottP]

Ethical? I am going to stray away from the pack and say yes. Why? Because nothing was "invented" with these "mods", that is why they are called mods. ALL of them are a coil wire with a battery attached and a wick through the coil. Changing the shape, the on/off mechanism, and quality of the materials is all that is really different between them. The basic principle is the same as every other coil/electric heating device that has been around for generations. Once a concept has been around for enough years it becomes public domain. This is how any company can make a telephone, a washing machine, a car, or a refrigerator. Now if someone were to come up with a radical new design, that does not use a coil and wick then that might be patentable. I can't take a coil, wick and a battery, shove them in a pipe made out of a different material and call it a new invention though.

The only thing that could possibly be copy protected with these devices is the design, the "look" if you will, and of course the name. It does bother me when clones use the same name as the original mainly because it causes confusion and mismatched parts. Smoktech is guilty of this. Look at the Vision vs Smoktech Vivi Novas for example.

Someone else mentioned bar soap. That one is completely different. Bar soap was originally a home made recipe. If you wanted soap you made it yourself. In fact archeologists have found evidence of soap dating as far back as 2800 BC (nearly 5000 years ago). Someone just started making enough to sell to others who didn't want to make it. Once again public domain applies here.

 

[NancyR]

I don't see anything unethical about someone buying a clone, I do however think it is unethical for those people who will buy a device *just* to send it to china to be cloned.

Most of these clones are not true clones anyways, they are knock offs. A clone of something is an exact copy, in cases like the k100, while it does "look" like the empire mod, there are a number of differences right down to empire uses a 901 connection and the k100 uses a standard 510.

 

[Commie]

My one and only issue with clones is when they put the original's name and market themselves as the original. If someone makes an equivalent of a Provari for half the price, that'd be great. If they put the name "Provari" on it, there's a problem.

 

[vapero]

that's life! Speaking for myself I am an industrial designer and I've seen some of my stuff copied (can't say cloned as my furniture is not a mass produced object nor are the copies, but still) if you don't invest on the proper patents then it is free to grab..
I once saw a picture of one of my beds listed on mercadolibre (ebay equivalent of latin america).

 

[O'Face]

I don't see anything unethical about someone buying a clone, I do however think it is unethical for those people who will buy a device *just* to send it to china to be cloned.

Most of these clones are not true clones anyways, they are knock offs. A clone of something is an exact copy, in cases like the k100, while it does "look" like the empire mod, there are a number of differences right down to empire uses a 901 connection and the k100 uses a standard 510.

Very true NancyR. As a matter of fact most "clones" are not exact replica's of these originals (different conductivity, and resistances for example). I heard someone put it like this, " If you want a Honda, buy a Honda. If you want a Ferrari, buy a Ferrari. And if you can't afford a Ferrari either save or buy a Honda." Yep I save, but every once in awhile I need a ride so I buy a Honda

 

[ZTKT]

So much great input, information, and knowledge here!

Thank you everyone for participating and I feel many of the arguments/beliefs here have put me at ease about my purchase.
I'm still very new to the scene and don't know much about the rarity of many of the mods found here, but it does make me scratch my head that these companies don't produce more. To keep exclusivity? or perhaps they realistically can't keep up with demand do to lack of production equipment/teams.

I am grateful for all that we do have!
Prior to this website I had no idea that there were soooo many mods available in all price ranges and styles. Rare and not rare.

 

[El_tecolote]

China's manufacturing ability to clone a well known device is like the Wild, Wild West where anything and everything goes and will somehow be cloned. When vaping is such an open market with very few patents in place, I expect nothing less. Ethical? Perhaps not from a broad interpretation of the word. Do I buy clones? Certainly if they are well made.

 

[tj99959]

I haven't driven one, but I hear Hondas are pretty fast.