Is Cloning Ethical?
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How much does it cost to make a product? I spent years in manufacturing and it costs very little more to make 100 or 1000 than it costs to make 1. After the price of equipment, the product costs pennies more when producing large amounts.
Now in the case of tube mods, CNC machines are expensive and the employee costs are more than the hourly wage, insurance costs both by the employee and the employer, and other overhead associated with running a business. So the manufacturer has to either charge more or sell more to make a profit. So its up to the consumer to decide what is a fair price.
So, could I make a tube for the cost of what I would need to pay, Probably not.
Now in the case of tube mods, CNC machines are expensive and the employee costs are more than the hourly wage, insurance costs both by the employee and the employer, and other overhead associated with running a business. So the manufacturer has to either charge more or sell more to make a profit. So its up to the consumer to decide what is a fair price.
So, could I make a tube for the cost of what I would need to pay, Probably not.
Ok MR 20 dollars worth of materials show us a mod you made from scratch that someone will pay 100$ Price dose not really fall in to ethics what people are willing to pay sets the price. I can ask 1000$ fore something but if there is no demand I wont get it.
I would like to know what 20$ clone is made with better materials craftsmanship and even improved the original?
Take your clone to a Machine shop have it modified your going to 50$ an hour 1 hr minimum have it anodized or powder coated there is another 50$ do they have any amount of materials involved?
Skilled labor and shop time is not cheep.
I would like to know what 20$ clone is made with better materials craftsmanship and even improved the original?
Take your clone to a Machine shop have it modified your going to 50$ an hour 1 hr minimum have it anodized or powder coated there is another 50$ do they have any amount of materials involved?
Skilled labor and shop time is not cheep.
Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote, when I said product, I mean a product intended for market. Anyone can spend any amount of free time on a personal project and claim just the materials as the cost, but that's not representative of anything producers do.
And this is exactly what I mean by machine operator types having no idea of the bigger picture. They think a "product" is the one piece in front of them.
That's the point, people aren't putting huge investments into short-run mods so that they can leverage the economies of scale of other products (or other countries, i.e. China). That increases costs and prices.
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Not mods but I've got archery stuff that is $0-$5 in materials that would cost hundreds to buy. Some of it more because it's completely customized crap that you can't buy.
I made a plumb bob that cost me $0 and no fool would pay what I would require for it when they can go to any hardware store and buy a clone plumb bob for under $10.
I can only answer what you ask not what you meant to ask.
There is nothing in your wiki definition to state mass production. You should try a dictionary, Product | Define Product at Dictionary.com
How much would it cost me to clone something like an IGO-L? Probably about the price of a FT clone and mine would be the same quality of materials as the original. That does not mean I could or would sell it for cost.
Your ignorance is forgiven but I am a business, I am a manufacturer, I am wholesale. My products ARE the piece in front of me, they are not only intended for market they are for market or I wouldn't be working on them.
Seems its you who has no idea of a bigger picture outside the one that you're looking at and think all those tool users are beneath you. There was a time those machine operators were the business owners you know.
Obviously if someone is going to criticize the cost of a product, it has to be compared to a marketed product.
Well what would you sell it for? Here you are criticizing based on raw costs and now you say you wouldn't sell it for cost?
Your statements belie this.
Again, not going to go down this road, it's not productive and only leads to hurt feelings. I've made my viewpoint known, as you have yours. The bottom line, though, is money talks and bull.... walks. If you can beat this pricing doing the work yourself, do it, and let us know so we can buy. If you can't or won't ... case in point.
I would divide this cloning business into two different categories.
there is a particular clone that offends me; the sentinel clone in which the china clone even cloned the look of the button. That is a rip off.
Now take the case of the Kamry K101: it looks sort of like the empire mod (the K100 looks a lot like the empire), it has a different locking ring and uses an ego style connector. There are differences in the product versus the original and kamry seemed to be answering the call of folks that didnt want to use an adaptor to use the empire mod. It's harder to fault kamry for the k101, and a bit shameless that the k100 looks like an empire mod but they are still different pieces of equipment.
Since the cloning of devices is so large its hard to get a good read on the ethics of this becase people are comparing apples and oranges most of the time. I think specific examples are needed. You also have to remember that china manufacturers are also cloning stuff other manufacturers have made (Think the ego-c twist, the vision spinner, the smoktech winder. or the vision ego vs any other of the same type of clone of which there are a lot of direct and indirect clones).
there is a particular clone that offends me; the sentinel clone in which the china clone even cloned the look of the button. That is a rip off.
Now take the case of the Kamry K101: it looks sort of like the empire mod (the K100 looks a lot like the empire), it has a different locking ring and uses an ego style connector. There are differences in the product versus the original and kamry seemed to be answering the call of folks that didnt want to use an adaptor to use the empire mod. It's harder to fault kamry for the k101, and a bit shameless that the k100 looks like an empire mod but they are still different pieces of equipment.
Since the cloning of devices is so large its hard to get a good read on the ethics of this becase people are comparing apples and oranges most of the time. I think specific examples are needed. You also have to remember that china manufacturers are also cloning stuff other manufacturers have made (Think the ego-c twist, the vision spinner, the smoktech winder. or the vision ego vs any other of the same type of clone of which there are a lot of direct and indirect clones).
But how are the chinese able to make these clones almost exactly like the real one part for part (there are tons of clones that can use parts from whatever its cloning) and manage to make a profit selling these thing for extremely cheap prices? And the sad part is some (very few) match if not even out perform the real thing. My question is are the materials and machine costs really that high to justify these high prices i am seeing? Or is it being exaggerated?
I have nothing against mods that cost $150 and above, hell i'm itching to blow a paycheck one two i have been watching. I just cant see how a brass/ss/aluminum tube with threads and a button can cost hundreds of dollars. Its getting even harder to drop big bucks because there are a few clones out there that give you great quality and performance for 60 bucks and under (for example the ehpro ea clone). So why buy a $200 metal tube with buttery threads, 0.17 voltage drop and a nice button when i can get another metal tube for $15-$60 that offer me just about the same?
Just a question here.....
Does anyone actually KNOW the original manufacturer's thoughts or opinions on these "clones" everyone keeps bickering about, or does everyone just assume that they are up in arms, stomping about their shops wondering how they can stop it all from happening?
It seems this has turned into more of a China bashing thread and I have yet to see a link or even a quote from the "originators" voicing their opinions on the matter, negative or otherwise.
Just a question.
Does anyone actually KNOW the original manufacturer's thoughts or opinions on these "clones" everyone keeps bickering about, or does everyone just assume that they are up in arms, stomping about their shops wondering how they can stop it all from happening?
It seems this has turned into more of a China bashing thread and I have yet to see a link or even a quote from the "originators" voicing their opinions on the matter, negative or otherwise.
Just a question.
Might have been mentioned already...
I'm against cloning on an ethical level. However, let me flip the coin a little. The units that are cloned seem to be always out of stock anyway. Doubt the cloning hurts sales all that much. There are exceptions, of course. Like the EA mod that seem to be mostly available.
And then you have extra sales for i.e the Golden Greek guys. I bet they have sold a whole lot of extra stealth caps and Oddy bases to the MKB-TS crowd.
Taken to the extreme, I'd rather have cloning than lawsuits over who has the right to use rounded edges on their tubular battery holders.
I'm against cloning on an ethical level. However, let me flip the coin a little. The units that are cloned seem to be always out of stock anyway. Doubt the cloning hurts sales all that much. There are exceptions, of course. Like the EA mod that seem to be mostly available.
And then you have extra sales for i.e the Golden Greek guys. I bet they have sold a whole lot of extra stealth caps and Oddy bases to the MKB-TS crowd.
Taken to the extreme, I'd rather have cloning than lawsuits over who has the right to use rounded edges on their tubular battery holders.
Materials and labor costs in China are dirt cheap. Check it out: China Average Salary Income - Job Comparison
Remember it is a Communist country so people don't actually have to make money. It is also not a true capitalist economy, companies receive huge government support in certain industries that are actually capable of distorting world markets.
You want something made in the industrial west, you are going to pay more for it than something from a place where people make $4 a day. A lot more.
I wasn't criticizing the cost. You asked how much it would cost ME to make it MYSELF. I answered because I happened to be looking into it recently. You didn't like the answer because the big bad machine operator answered so you start twisting and turning trying to pretend you didn't ask what you did.
If it's compared to a marketed product's price that would be an even dumber question. Then you can compare it to something that's a clone or something that's high priced. Neither answer answers how much it costs to make but how much it costs to buy.
How much does it cost to make. How much can I sell it for. Subtract the two and that's my profit. The only time other product's pricing comes into it is to see if I can make more profit.
I would probably charge upwards of $100 to make something like an IGO-L. The materials are so inconsequential I probably wouldn't even include them in the price. Like I said, I don't have CNC machines so there's a lot of labor involved. Free for me, not for anyone else.
That price has nothing to do with cost unless I'm paying an employee to make it.
My statements do not belie this. You think I'm just a tool user and you're better than any of us blue collar workers so you refuse to see what I said and take it for what it is.
Of course you're not going down that road after you've already gone down that road and done your best to throw the first stone. Maybe you should change your attitude about the working man so you don't have to turn around after heading down that road next time.
Seems China is beating the price and that's why this topic keeps on coming up. I have my own business making and fixing stuff that people can't easily go running to China for. I happily work on things people bring back from China vacations or order from QVC, pay me now or pay me later.
I have no need to try and beat a $10 RDA made in China. Someone making RDA's does. They're the ones who need to poop or get off the pot.
Again I asked how much it would take to make the PRODUCT. There's a huge difference between making a personal project and producing a marketable product, yourself or otherwise. I highly doubt you would consider your time valueless if you were making product for sale. In fact you just said as much yourself.
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That's the big irony. Opening up a special economic zone allowing outsiders, using their own greed for profit and money, to ruin their own countries' economy. They don't need government funding when foreigners are more than happy to fund it themselves.
But I digress... sorry for that. I take no part in this. I just find it interesting to observe.
They are not exact they just look exactly like the real ones. They are made from low grade materials we all know the Chinese labor sweatshop practices which is its own ethics thread. But yes thats the whole point of the debate. It comes down to your conscience or your wallet.
When you compare most clones with the original side buy side there is no disputing which is made better. Whether you chose to buy an original or someone who copies and sells a lesser quality is up to each individual.
Also Voltage drop is a wide misconception the voltage drop is relative to the resistance and delivery system being used its really kind of a moot point.
My reason for not buying Clones, copies, and fakes
1 I appreciate the time and effort the original manufacturer put in to the device.
2 IMO its just sleazy to make a buck off of someone elses design and name.
3 I get a since of gratification from owning quality made products
4 I try not to buy products period that are made in places that use labor practices I dont agree with
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These are my standards. I do not think others that do not look at things the same as I do are the antichrist. I will try to point out you can never go wrong taking the high road in any situation.
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It doesn't matter if you called it product or not. You asked what it COST to make it myself. Since I am not a machine shop making a marketable product and paying for labor you got the answer of what it would COST to make it myself. When I make something my labor is profit. If I pay someone else to make something their labor is cost.
Even when I'm making something for sale the cost is how much money I had to shell out to make it.
You did not ask what I would CHARGE to make a PROFIT on a clone.
If you asked how much it cost to make wine am I really supposed to add up all my time tending the trees, pressing the fruit, making the wine, bottling the wine and storing the wine? Or would it be more accurate to say I spent $50 on honey and got 4-5 cases last year?
None of that would be applicable to running a winery, which I figured up before and it would take a multimillion dollar investment to start in order to make it worth the investment.
Since just like with steel I don't buy in quantity as if I was a winery or brewery to get price breaks, requiring me to use my higher material costs plus labor costs for a more labor intensive process would prove nothing beyond you were asking a loaded question.
I have a question of you. Do you actually run a business or even produce anything as a hobby?
I have that user blocked but you are wasting your time by responding to him or her. He/she has done nothing but argue with just about every single person in this thread..
I quit posting in this thread because of all the unneeded drama that user has brought. It would be nice to discuss this without all that drama but I digress and once again back out of this topic..
My .02
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