Is Cloning Ethical?

[raqball]

I keep quoting because it should be rather obvious what the OP asked and it should be rather obvious that some users don't read, or read only what they want..

This thread is nowhere even close to what the OP asked and it keeps getting derailed by users on some odd drama infused agenda...

My .02

I am out of this disaster of a thread... LOLOLOL

 

[dr g]

I have a problem with both because it's theft either way IMHO.

True that the cheaper unbranded versions are not as troubling as the printed logo versions but someone is still ripping off the original creator of his/her design and specs..

The Russian (kayfun clone) is a good example. They copied the specs to a T and even gloat on their website that Kayfun parts are interchangeable.. They took, stole, copied the exact specs and slapped a different name on it...

I think even that area is pretty gray. Aftermarket products that accept factory parts to make a complete unit are not unprecedented or even rare. Unless the kayfun is patented and/or copyrighted in a given jurisdiction, there is no inherent problem with the clone selling in that market. As far as I know the kayfun represents no such IP, itself being based on prior device concepts and designs. You might even say the clone producers are to be commended for clearly distinguishing the clone product with a different branding, and for making some alterations (improvements some say) to the design.

One thing to keep in mind is that clones arise from successful products, so it's likely that the creator does pretty good business before the clone is even considered. I know that doesn't make things okay in a legal sense, but IMO that is a piece of the moral picture.

 

[Penn]

I keep quoting because it should be rather obvious what the OP asked and it should be rather obvious that some users don't read, or read only what they want..

I agreed with your quoting for that reason. But if you want people to stick with how it was defined by the OP, shouldn't you?

This thread is nowhere even close to what the OP asked and keeps getting derailed by users on some odd drama infused agenda...

What is my agenda? I agree with sticking to the topic.

My .02

I am out of this disaster of a thread... LOLOLOL

Wow, I agreed and you left over it?

 

[raqball]

Wow, I agreed and you left over it?

No I am leaving the tread because it's a disaster IMHO..

I understand what the OP was asking but others (not saying you) have flat out derailed it and they keep doing so.. I was not implying that you are on an agenda.. Mainly another user who has said things and now must defend them... At the price of drama

I am all about drama free and this thread is getting to the point of being drama intensive..

 

[peterforpats]

another thread about cloning and ethics? hasn't this been done before? isn't this just a clone of another thread?

 

[Penn]

No I am leaving the tread because it's a disaster IMHO..

I understand what the OP was asking but others (not saying you) have flat out derailed it and they keep doing so.. I was not implying that you are on an agenda.. Mainly another user who has said things and now must defend them... At the price of drama

I am all about drama free and this thread is getting to the point of being drama intensive..

Ah, I see. The thread came close on the heels of another clone thread that was worse (as near as I can tell without reading the whole thing). I knew not to read this unless I was in a mood which is immune to the same stuff you don't like.

 

[Myk]

No clone exists??????????? Wow, just WOW

4. One that copies or closely resembles another, as in appearance or function

I put # 4 in BOLD

And therefore we are stuck using Ruyan ecigs by your definition of convenience at this moment which I'm sure you'll change again now that it's pointed out that using someone else's words didn't say what you had hoped.

There is simply not enough room to have vastly different function when heating PG/VG, water, flavor and nicotine to a vapor. And if you don't know, Ruyan has been known to press patent rights over this.

I am fairly sure what you mean are "fakes". I can't figure out why you and others refuse to use that word when it is accepted and understood across many business platforms.

A watch with a Rolex style band is not a fake even though it has the appearance of a Rolex. There are only so many possibilities for watch designs. Having a dial and numbers does not make something a clone or a fake of a different brand.

 

[SissySpike]

Fakes, Clone,s Copies we all know what the score is Kinda silly to argue what to call it.

How about just sleazy unimaginative bottom feeding leaches. To simple and to lazy to make their own models. So they Copy, clone and fake others people design. Buy them if you will I chose not to.

 

[dr g]

Then again all cartomizers look almost exactly the same and the design is almost identical in all of them, dirty knockoff artists.

 

[Myk]

Fakes, Clone,s Copies we all know what the score is Kinda silly to argue what to call it.

How about just sleazy unimaginative bottom feeding leaches. To simple and to lazy to make their own models. So they Copy, clone and fake others people design. Buy them if you will I chose not to.

Which covers every RDA compared to every other RDA and ever RBA compared to every other RBA and ever VV compared to every other VV. They are all something someone else made with slight changes just like what people call clones.

 

[BostonJim]

Ok, I see that this issue will not be settled any time soon. But I like this definition...

One that copies or closely resembles another, as in appearance or function

So with that being said, when does a product cease being a clone? I have two different types of units, they look entirely different, but function the same. So is a mod a clone of the eGo? I can argue yes, I can argue no. I know thousands of examples can be made about the functionality being similar in a a wide variety of products but are not considered clones. Pick-up trucks for one. So the question is... when does a product cease being a clone?

What happens when a clone becomes superior to the original? You know what, I don't know. I think what is best for me is to do my best to get the most mileage for my money. In my life I bought high priced items that were crap, and I bought cheap and got more than my moneys worth. So I'll do the necessary research and make an educated buy, but sometimes in life you just have to gamble.

 

[BostonJim]

I just had another thought.

There are times when a product becomes public domain. Like band-aides. When that happens then its up to the manufacturer to differentiate between their products and the competitors. Automobiles, televisions, batteries, and flashlights are all public domain items. Anybody with the means to manufacture them can sell them on the open market, hence the multitude of brand names.

So my final decision when it comes to vaping supplies, they are all public domain products and its up to the consumer to do due diligence when purchasing. You can patent your style, your look, and anyone who copies that is cheating. But simply makeing a new product that works the same as another product is just business.

 

[FLExJuice]

So the next question is who's going to make the last comment before the thread is closed.....(to be cloned-tinued)

 

[hammer of the gods]

is it ethical to charge $200++ for a metal tube?

 

[ItsEddie]

is it ethical to charge $200++ for a metal tube?

This. When i first started researching mech mods the first thing that stood out was how expensive some of them were. I understand the people who make such heavily priced mods has to pay to get them designed and made and tested etc etc but do those things really justify such steep prices? I find it amazing because most (not all) of the clones that are being rolled out these days offer the same, sometimes even better quality and performance than the mod it is copying from and is only literally a fraction of the price.

So is cloning ethical? Probably not. Is selling a brass/ss/aluminum tube with threads a 510 connection and a switch for over $200 ethical?

 

[dr g]

Have you tried to price out what it would cost to make that product yourself?

 

[Myk]

Have you tried to price out what it would cost to make that product yourself?

About $3/inch of stainless rod for 1' length. A few bucks for o-rings and other seals. That should make quite a few RDAs.
That's buying expensive (not in bulk) and I don't charge myself labor and my lathe is old and cheap (but also not CNC so each one actually takes labor).

About $11/foot of brass tube for a 6' length.

Need I go on?

 

[ItsEddie]

Have you tried to price out what it would cost to make that product yourself?

I understand you have to buy materials and then get them machined but does it really cost that much? i see mods on fasttech for 11-30 bucks im sure fasttech buys them from the different sellers for way less so does it really cost that much to make a mod? I guess its cheaper when your mass producing? If someone could give me a rough idea of the costs that would be appreciated.

 

[dr g]

About $3/inch of stainless rod for 1' length. A few bucks for o-rings and other seals. That should make quite a few RDAs.
That's buying expensive (not in bulk) and I don't charge myself labor and my lathe is old and cheap (but also not CNC so each one actually takes labor).

About $11/foot of brass tube for a 6' length.

Need I go on?

I've been down this path with a few too many people and suffice to say most have no idea what it actually takes to bring a product to market. They think just because they operate a machine it qualifies them to declare a product too costly (while ignoring the cost of their own labor).

Inevitably I ask these people to make me the product for production and the excuses start flowing in. It's one thing to tinker out a mod for yourself in the backyard. Hours of leisure time doesn't cost anything to you. But try making that a business.

I understand you have to buy materials and then get them machined but does it really cost that much? i see mods on fasttech for 11-30 bucks im sure fasttech buys them from the different sellers for way less so does it really cost that much to make a mod? I guess its cheaper when your mass producing? If someone could give me a rough idea of the costs that would be appreciated.

Fasttech and its suppliers are located in China. $200 mods are invariably made in the west. Totally different scenarios.

 

[Myk]

I've been down this path with a few too many people and suffice to say most have no idea what it actually takes to bring a product to market. They think just because they operate a machine it qualifies them to declare a product too costly (while ignoring the cost of their own labor).

Inevitably I ask these people to make me the product for production and the excuses start flowing in. It's one thing to tinker out a mod for yourself in the backyard. Hours of leisure time doesn't cost anything to you. But try making that a business.

I've been down this road too.
You asked, "Have you tried to price out what it would cost to make that product yourself?"
Now that I answered and you don't like the answer you change the criteria of your question to "bring a product to market".
If you can't be honest in your tactics don't bother.

The fact is the materials are not that much money and if I'm making the product MYSELF I do not charge myself labor and I am not necessarily putting the product on market.

Yes I know as a business there are overhead costs and in the US a great cost is the price of a machinist's labor. Also the production machines are much more expensive than my 3' lathe from the '60s and you're not going into production without CNC.
But you're also not going into machine shop production with ONLY ecigs as your base. In fact most of these production mods are not made in house (or at least they weren't back when I was paying attention). They come up with the specs and farm them out to a machine shop.