I have Vanilla Swirl from FA and Capella's Custard V2 which are both DAP free.
They smell just as good, but I haven't tried them yet.
They smell just as good, but I haven't tried them yet.
Cloud9vaping pulls Five Pawns and other liquids from the shelf after testing.
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Not arguing any kind of point here, just curious. When people say more AP than cigarette smoke, how much is in cigarette smoke, and is that in the smoke from one cigarette? If so, and you consider that most people smoked 10+ cigarettes in a day, is it still more?
The flavor houses sell flavoring in highly concentrated form that is not sold to consumers. Those concentrates are meant to be used by people with some very serious chemistry and flavor expertise. If 5 Pawns is so far off on nic and PG/VG levels they are not anywhere close to being grownup enough to play with flavor house concentrates which could produce the differing results seen in the Cloud 9 and 5 Pawns tests. I have no idea if this is the explanation but it is a reasonable possibility.
Some companies post test results on their website while others will send results via email if customers request it. I know several reputable companies that have cleaned up their juice lines from diketones - none have posted results on their websites. Email Cloud 9 to ask for results for their house liquids.
According to a couple of vendors that have gone through the process of cleaning up their juice lines flavors 1 and 2 can test clean on their own. However, when combined produce unacceptable lab results increasing time/expense to clean up their line while causing much hair pulling.
Very informative and...
...holy hell that was brutal.
Its nice to see the ECTA take action.
Just take a look at the juices on Vaporsharks website, they have test results for every juice and brand they carry.
EDIT: You could also look on the ECTA website and look at some of the member juice companies, all of them test their juices, some post the results like Flavour Crafters, so does a B&M called DashVapes.
In Russ' podcast, when talking about the AP in Absolute Pin he stated that if one vaped 7ml to 10ml per day it was more than they would get from smoking an entire pack of cigarettes.
I can't recall if it was 7ml or 10ml but it was definitely in that range.
The more shocking fact was that if the numbers are accurate, there was more AP in that flavor than nicotine. It's also curious that the nicotine in a bottle labeled 3mg was actually 2.2mg.
I'm with you on this - if there had been additional flavour added instead of VG this would go a long way towards explain both the PG/VG variation and the AP difference.
Latest statement from Cloud 9's website:
Liquid test results - update
Liquid test results, was a table of test results of liquids supplied by Five Pawns (as well as other suppliers) and an explanation of those test results.
They declined to provide their own test results when we commenced trading at the start of 2015, accordingly (and in accordance with our product testing policy) we submitted 8 Five Pawns liquids to testing at an independent UKAS accredited laboratory.
We published the results approximately 7 weeks after providing them privately to Five Pawns.
Five Pawns took exception to the post, sent a cease and desist letter through their attorneys, threatening legal action if our post was not removed.
Whilst we stand by these results, we decided to take down the information to comply with Five Pawns’ request.
Our own solicitors have responded in robust terms rejecting allegations made by Five Pawns, and they have now released their own test results, and it is incontrovertible that liquid produced by Five Pawns contains the compounds in question.
Liquid test results - update
Liquid test results, was a table of test results of liquids supplied by Five Pawns (as well as other suppliers) and an explanation of those test results.
They declined to provide their own test results when we commenced trading at the start of 2015, accordingly (and in accordance with our product testing policy) we submitted 8 Five Pawns liquids to testing at an independent UKAS accredited laboratory.
We published the results approximately 7 weeks after providing them privately to Five Pawns.
Five Pawns took exception to the post, sent a cease and desist letter through their attorneys, threatening legal action if our post was not removed.
Whilst we stand by these results, we decided to take down the information to comply with Five Pawns’ request.
Our own solicitors have responded in robust terms rejecting allegations made by Five Pawns, and they have now released their own test results, and it is incontrovertible that liquid produced by Five Pawns contains the compounds in question.
"Canadian trade association ECTA notifies 50 vendors to cease selling Five Pawns e-liquids"
From the following FB page by Russ W.
https://www.facebook.com/russ.wishtart?fref=pymk
The letter to members:
https://cdn.fbsbx.com/hphotos-xpt1/...d141a4c215bc86815258ea1ecd19&oe=55970963&dl=1
From the following FB page by Russ W.
https://www.facebook.com/russ.wishtart?fref=pymk
The letter to members:
https://cdn.fbsbx.com/hphotos-xpt1/...d141a4c215bc86815258ea1ecd19&oe=55970963&dl=1
Nothing cryptic at all. Dude you are new here and you need to read more about ANTZ as they are not on our side at all. The vapers who have been here a long time certainly should know about ANTZ, but they don't care and love giving them more reasons to ban vaping. I've smoked 2 plus packs a day for 40 years and now vape, so if what I vape is according to the experts here equivalent to one cigarette a day I've smoked 49 cigarettes less a day. I'm a member of CASAA and I sign petitions. ANTZ loves these threads and giving them any information doesn't help our cause. Vaping maybe a hobby to you, but to many of us it's a way to stay off cigarettes. Good luck.
Maybe this might make some sense as it was posted in a mod forum.
An Open Letter to The Ecig Industry Regarding Accusations
Though I am Co-President of Southern California SFATA I would like to make very clear that I am writing this letter as an attorney, consultant and investment banker.
I have quietly watched the vapor industry (and in some cases consumers) for the past few months publicly hurl accusations against other companies, particularly on social media forums. These accusations seem to come in three primary forms; alleged marketing to children, bad test results for diacetyl and other “hazardous” substances and intellectual property violations.
I am requesting that those who claim they are taking these actions “for the benefit of the industry” actually think about what they are doing here. In an environment of deep hostility and in light of active attempts to shut the industry down, the result is that we are providing our opponents and challengers with the very ammunition they need to ensure this industry is regulated to death. Public shaming and witch-hunts, many of which may be without basis, will ensure that public’s perception of us remains tarnished.
Consumers absolutely need and are entitled to information about products which they use and that information should be true and valid information, not preliminary or incorrect information. The industry as a whole must become more professional handling these situations. Posting accusations in public without a full investigation, is both foolhardy and mimics the actions of our opponents.
I am suggesting that if anyone ever believes another company has done something in error, it would be mature and professional to contact them discretely and privately. Have a conversation with them. Don’t broadcast the results publicly for the world to see before a full respectful discussion has occurred and where appropriate, a detailed investigation has been carried out.
[Moderated] Moderator's edit: removed enough of the article to comply with the forum rules as stated to be no more than 300 words. Link to article is posted.
An Open Letter to The Ecig Industry Regarding Accusations
Though I am Co-President of Southern California SFATA I would like to make very clear that I am writing this letter as an attorney, consultant and investment banker.
I have quietly watched the vapor industry (and in some cases consumers) for the past few months publicly hurl accusations against other companies, particularly on social media forums. These accusations seem to come in three primary forms; alleged marketing to children, bad test results for diacetyl and other “hazardous” substances and intellectual property violations.
I am requesting that those who claim they are taking these actions “for the benefit of the industry” actually think about what they are doing here. In an environment of deep hostility and in light of active attempts to shut the industry down, the result is that we are providing our opponents and challengers with the very ammunition they need to ensure this industry is regulated to death. Public shaming and witch-hunts, many of which may be without basis, will ensure that public’s perception of us remains tarnished.
Consumers absolutely need and are entitled to information about products which they use and that information should be true and valid information, not preliminary or incorrect information. The industry as a whole must become more professional handling these situations. Posting accusations in public without a full investigation, is both foolhardy and mimics the actions of our opponents.
I am suggesting that if anyone ever believes another company has done something in error, it would be mature and professional to contact them discretely and privately. Have a conversation with them. Don’t broadcast the results publicly for the world to see before a full respectful discussion has occurred and where appropriate, a detailed investigation has been carried out.
[Moderated] Moderator's edit: removed enough of the article to comply with the forum rules as stated to be no more than 300 words. Link to article is posted.
Last edited by a moderator:
Yes it was higher AP than present in 20 cigarettes. When Dr. F published his diacetyl study he had a chart with both diacetyl and AP levels in 20 cigarettes a day. For diacetyl it was 5870 ug , and for AP a lot lower ( maybe around 1300, not quite sure ). I will try to find the chart when i have time.
Dr. F made the comparison to show that while diketones are an avoidable risk in e-liquid and should be removed, they are still lower than the levels in cigarette smoke. His comparison was 20 cigarettes vs. 3 ml of eliquid. If i'm not mistaken NIOSH wrote a letter in response claiming that Dr. F had overstated the amount of diketones in cigarettes.
Either way the levels of AP were much lower in the eliquids he tested in late 2013, early 2014 than some of the numbers we see today. Probably because more juices had diacetyl in them back then instead of AP.
I agree and this is exactly what Cloud 9 did, they informed them privately of results 7 weeks before they made them public. 5P would only discuss with them over the phone and Cloud 9 wanted all communication in writing (which was absolutely right as then it would be documented what each side said). You cannot have a conversation with someone who won't participate. 5P's own results show very high AP levels and they have stated they are happy selling at these levels. There is a variance between C9 & 5P's results - 5P weren't concerned enough to discuss with Cloud 9 and their own test results are so high it becomes a moot point.This is not about the levels in their juice it is about the fact they have not been honest and open about it.
The bad AP results for some of Five Pawns range has come from 5P themselves - that is not an accusation that's a fact.
Thanks so cigarettes are a safer choice. Do I get all the chemicals and tar from vaping FP? I hate avoiding the 600 toxic chemicals I had when smoking. How high are my odds on getting lung cancer from FP? I'm serious how high are my chances?
If Mr. Burton is sincerely concerned about regulation it would be wiser for him to be spending his time relentlessly haranguing SFATA membership to get their houses in order, like yesterday, rather than lecturing consumers to sit down and shut up like good little lemmings when they have been victims of a SFATA member's repeated and continuing mendacity. The ball was 100% in Five Pawns court to keep their deceit out of the public eye but they chose to bluff it out instead and got called.
It is disheartening to know that vaping's industry trade organization is headed by someone so totally delusional about human nature. When people feel deceived suffering in silence is pretty much at the bottom of the list of actions they consider despite Mr. Burton's officious condescension.
Phone call. Hello or does your smart phone have one? Business deals are made via conversion. I haven't a heard a word from cloud9 and i emailed them twice now.
Where have I ever said cigarettes are a safer choice?? I think vaping is far, far safer regardless of what your juice choice is. I have no idea what your chances of lung cancer from vaping 5P is, I have no idea what my chances of lung cancer from vaping are - I have no problem with you vaping 5P, I have no problem with anyone vaping FP. You can interpret the current evidence in any way you want. I believe there are documented POSSIBLE PROBLEMS indicated from sources I trust that vaping diacetyl and AP MAY cause problems in the future and MY choice is to avoid if possible. I do not actually believe at this stage juices containing high levels should be banned, I think both of us should be able to vape what we choose - but I do think there should be honesty. If a juice maker KNOWS they have high levels of AP and CHOOSES not to inform the public until a second party does publish their results - they should frankly be ashamed of themselves. I may be biased - there are many companies I buy from, there are 2 I trust completely to do the best for their customers and to put safety at the forefront with integrity. One is Cloud 9 in the UK and the other is Provape in the US. I will stand up for both of them when necessary. 5P have high levels of AP in some of their juice - that's a fact - now they have been forced to make this public, I can make a decision about whether I want to vape it or not.
Cloud 9 had to have something like this in writing - 5P actions showed they were absolutely right to do this. It should also have been perceived by 5P to be in their interest too. This was not a 'business meeting' - this was a discussion re: worrying tests results obtained due to 5P not forwarding their own results as they had promised. Cloud 9 will reply - I'm sure they have a lot on at the moment.
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