Cloud9vaping pulls Five Pawns and other liquids from the shelf after testing.

[BigEgo]

While I also found Russ's Click Bang "rant" over the top as others have noted, the totality of his work via YouTube and Podcasts with respect to activism is outstanding.

Frankly, I would love to see prominent YouTube reviewers take 5P to task on this issue with a dedicated video. Perhaps they have and I missed it? I'm of course referring to "reach" and "influence". Like 50K views in a week or two or 300K views over a longer period of time. Additionally, you memorialize the event so others can look back in six months or a year and see what happened. That's "social media" on steroids!

Busardo doesn't appear to be happy about it. He was in the chat room during Russ's show. But I seriously doubt he will ever go public in a video about it, or if he does he wont name names.

 

[Mazinny]

Busardo doesn't appear to be happy about it. He was in the chat room during Russ's show. But I seriously doubt he will ever go public in a video about it, or if he does he wont name names.

Here's what i posted in a different thread about his view of the topic :

Interesting that PBusardo is weighing in on this issue as well. He is a tech geek really and not as involved in the regulation/transparency/safety issues as someone like Dimitri, but he has invited the vendors whose juice he has previously raved about to send him copies of their testing :

Taste Your Juice | MY FAVORITE E-LIQUIDS LIST AND STREET SHOUT OUT LIQUIDS

Lots of old school vendors on his list, but some vendors ( HHV, MOV, P.O.E.T, njoy, Goodlife etc... ) that have been discussed in this thread are on the lists as well.

Taste Your Juice | SOME OF MY FAVORITE E-LIQUIDS
Taste Your Juice | STREET SHOUT OUT E-LIQUIDS

 

[zoiDman]

All of the facts are not yet known about Vaping.

Until they are, all of this is mere speculation.

Jim

No One has said that All the Facts about Vaping are Known. And Five Pawns can Say,

"... Five Pawns does not feel there is any concern with diacetyl or AP in our e-liquids at current levels. ..."

News - Five Pawns

That is Their Opinion. One that is Debatable.

But, to Me, what is Not Debatable and what is Not Speculation is that Five Pawns has Repeatedly Lied about the what is in the e-liquids that they Sell.

And that is what I (and Many Others) find so Egregious.

 

[zoiDman]

Deleted

Just out of Curiosity.

How would this have a Bearing on an e-Liquid Manufacture repeatedly Lying to their Customers when they are asked if Da and AP are present in their e-Liquids?

 

[zoiDman]

Deleted

Just don't see why a Smoker or and Ex-Smoker has any Less Right to Not be Lied too.

If you have to Know, I smoked for about 20 Years. It Isn't much of a Secrete.

So Now that I Answered Your Question, maybe you can Answer Mine.

"How would this have a Bearing on an e-Liquid Manufacture repeatedly Lying to their Customers when they are asked if Da and AP are present in their e-Liquids?"

 

[LouisLeBeau]

Deleted

OH, Thats different! I was warned of the hazards by the VERY SAME people who told me that the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus were real, and that I would go blind and grow hair on my palms and get breasts from certain activities. OK, so they're batting .167, but you know what I mean. Didn't take it very seriously at the time, and the consequences were WAY down the road even if there was a Santa. By the time it actually was obvious, I was way past being hooked.

I should have quit right away. Tried many times. Once for FIVE YEARS. A potent addiction. Stupid as all get out, I know. Hell, there's probably STILL people ordering bottles of Castle Long Reserve. Life's like a box of chocolates, and Stupid is as Stupid does.

 

[zoiDman]

No Need for an Answer Now.

 

[SeniorBoy]

Here's what i posted in a different thread about his view of the topic :

Interesting that PBusardo is weighing in on this issue as well. He is a tech geek really and not as involved in the regulation/transparency/safety issues as someone like Dimitri, but he has invited the vendors whose juice he has previously raved about to send him copies of their testing :

Taste Your Juice | MY FAVORITE E-LIQUIDS LIST AND STREET SHOUT OUT LIQUIDS

Lots of old school vendors on his list, but some vendors ( HHV, MOV, P.O.E.T, Njoy, Goodlife etc... ) that have been discussed in this thread are on the lists as well.

Taste Your Juice | SOME OF MY FAVORITE E-LIQUIDS
Taste Your Juice | STREET SHOUT OUT E-LIQUIDS

Much thanks! IMHO, PB has taken a baby step in the correct direction but it's a far cry from what I would want to see from any and all YouTube all stars. I mean, weather you want 5P to vanish off the face of the planet with the valid "accountability" argument (my likie) or choose to pursue my unpopular /lol dual tract and send them your wishes one last time while continuing to do your best to create large amounts of "HEAT" to insure they are accountable, WE need traction across the Community.

Finally a question: Does the following statement made by 5P on their web site in 2013, 2014, and 2015 apply/conform to detectable levels of DA and or AP? True or false? A lie or the truth? (Note: I have screen captures from the WayBackMachine)

"We use only natural USP / food grade ingredients and the best premium pharmaceutical grade nicotine."

?

 

[Lessifer]

I've yet to see an actual public statement from 5p saying their liquids are diketone free. I've seen responses to emails, and I think there was a reddit post, but nothing "official" on the website or otherwise.

I do believe that they lied to those they specifically told the liquids were diketone free, and they have implied a lot.

 

[rurwin]

rurwin,

I wanted to bring into the conversation, not directed to you specifically, but wanted to ask everybody: what is WRONG with publishing test results? Vapers who want to vape DAP-FREE need to see test results in order to make informed purchasing decisions in the free market.

I missed this question.
It's bad manners. Consider if you were selling your car and some guy came round, saw some red marks on the engine block and then turned it down. That's fine; its his prerogative. How happy would you be if he took out a full page article in the local paper the next day saying that you had run it on agricultural fuel, with the implication that it would be a bad idea to buy it? How much would it matter if you had or hadn't done what he was accusing you of?

There is no standardised test for DA/AP and, even if there were, there might be a bad batch or a contaminated test. A company should not be publicly pilloried for a one off mistake, especially if they did not make one.

In this case we do not have to look at the Cloud9 report and wonder if something went wrong with it; we have two reports from 5P themselves that are bad enough.

Finally a question: Does the following statement made by 5P on their web site in 2013, 2014, and 2015 apply/conform to detectable levels of DA and or AP? True or false? A lie or the truth? (Note: I have screen captures from the WayBackMachine)

"We use only natural USP / food grade ingredients and the best premium pharmaceutical grade nicotine."

Since DA and AP are both perfectly safe in food, and used in it every day, then there is nothing incorrect in that quote. What it doesn't say, and nobody can say about any eliquid, is that vaping-safe ingredients are used.

 

[Mr.Mann]

While I also found Russ's Click Bang "rant" over the top as others have noted, the totality of his work via YouTube and Podcasts with respect to activism is outstanding.

Frankly, I would love to see prominent YouTube reviewers take 5P to task on this issue with a dedicated video. Perhaps they have and I missed it? I'm of course referring to "reach" and "influence". Like 50K views in a week or two or 300K views over a longer period of time. Additionally, you memorialize the event so others can look back in six months or a year and see what happened. That's "social media" on steroids!

Reviewers have to watch their step considering many of them have put their name on bottles. Last thing they want to do is come out holding others' feet to the fire while they are walking around in flip-flops.

 

[puddinman]

You would have to define "vaping-safe," because at this point there is no evidence of a hazard.

What I suspect you really want is full disclosure. But as the dicsussion in the other thread linked to above about diacetyl perhaps "growing," it may have been a previously misunderstood process that lead to high test levels of DA. Thus, it is within the realm of possibility that no one lied at all but simply didn't know DA was present in such high levels.

Do we even know for sure that ANY flavor is perfectly safe to breathe? Of course not. We all assume so based only on the fact that vaping isn't smoking and doesn't have the levels of carcinogens and such. But we may be way off. It's possible that breathing in high levels of any "contaminant," has some level of attendant risk. It may be that all this consternation and argument is for nothing. Dunno.

We are all taking an unknown risk by vaping at all. Let's not freak out and divide the community quibbling about which unknowns are worse.. The answer will always be, "Dunno. Let's see what shakes out."

 

[Mr.Mann]

You would have to define "vaping-safe," because at this point there is no evidence of a hazard.

What I suspect you really want is full disclosure. But as the dicsussion in the other thread linked to above about diacetyl perhaps "growing," it may have been a previously misunderstood process that lead to high test levels of DA. Thus, it is within the realm of possibility that no one lied at all but simply didn't know DA was present in such high levels.

Do we even know for sure that ANY flavor is perfectly safe to breathe? Of course not. We all assume so based only on the fact that vaping isn't smoking and doesn't have the levels of carcinogens and such. But we may be way off. It's possible that breathing in high levels of any "contaminant," has some level of attendant risk. It may be that all this consternation and argument is for nothing. Dunno.

We are all taking an unknown risk by vaping at all. Let's not freak out and divide the community quibbling about which unknowns are worse.. The answer will always be, "Dunno. Let's see what shakes out."

Aside from what you or I think about DA/AP, do you think it is okay for 5P to *let* some of their retailers continue to sell their products as DA/AP free? I say *let* because as we have seen, 5P is very concerned with anything untrue said about them from their retailers. Or are they?

Their retailers must be on a bulk email list (at the very least) for such a professional and "perfectionist" company, right?! But yet I can still find some that say things like this on their site (and this is a direct quote): Five Pawns contains no artificial flavors or colors and definitely does not contain diacetyl, acetyl propionyl or acetoin. [Note: that is a different site than the first one I posted -- "definitely"!] LOL.

Now, if they posted test results of 5P like Cloud 9 did, do you think 5P would then take notice? And if you think that the sites that sell 5P this way are only far and few between, I would then say: Cloud 9 was only ONE site. But that sure didn't stop 5P from issuing a C&D for saying something 5P deemed to be untrue -- this should be no different, but it is becasue it doesn't make them look good. Or is it just another oversight from "perfectionists"?

 

[kates]

It's highly unlikely anyone will risk posting 5P test results now unless they have very deep pockets. We all know that defending one's actions can be a very lengthy, expensive business even if one is proved to be right in the end. There would be no point in someone defending a case to determine how much more unacceptable their figures were than the already unacceptable figures provided by the prosecution? 5P have made an example of C9 - say something we don't like and we will silence you by threatening action which will cost you a lot of time and money even if we don't have a case. Does anyone think that 5P would actually have published their results if their hand hadn't been forced? Many still don't get the timeline of 5P's own testing/ disclosure because they have spinned it on their site - with links to test result many don't read or look at the date on.

 

[kates]

I've yet to see an actual public statement from 5p saying their liquids are diketone free. I've seen responses to emails, and I think there was a reddit post, but nothing "official" on the website or otherwise.

I do believe that they lied to those they specifically told the liquids were diketone free, and they have implied a lot.

I agree with this. From what I can see people have been told over the phone and via email by Customer Services, and verbally in person (low tier, easy to blame). No-one high up has said anything in writing (note they would not communicate with C9 in writing) and without test results they gave a clear impression of being da/ap free without as you say any 'official' statement. Whatever else you think of them - they are very clever at spin and suggestion and are clearly ...... that C9 have forced them to reveal their results which has somewhat tarnished the erroneous impression they have built so carefully.

 

[BigEgo]

Much thanks! IMHO, PB has taken a baby step in the correct direction but it's a far cry from what I would want to see from any and all YouTube all stars. I mean, weather you want 5P to vanish off the face of the planet with the valid "accountability" argument (my likie) or choose to pursue my unpopular /lol dual tract and send them your wishes one last time while continuing to do your best to create large amounts of "HEAT" to insure they are accountable, WE need traction across the Community.

Finally a question: Does the following statement made by 5P on their web site in 2013, 2014, and 2015 apply/conform to detectable levels of DA and or AP? True or false? A lie or the truth? (Note: I have screen captures from the WayBackMachine)

"We use only natural USP / food grade ingredients and the best premium pharmaceutical grade nicotine."

?

The VG/PG and nicotine have little to do with diacetyl/AP. I would be shocked if any major vendor is not using USP grade PG/VG/nicotine in 2015.

 

[BigEgo]

You would have to define "vaping-safe," because at this point there is no evidence of a hazard.

What I suspect you really want is full disclosure. But as the dicsussion in the other thread linked to above about diacetyl perhaps "growing," it may have been a previously misunderstood process that lead to high test levels of DA. Thus, it is within the realm of possibility that no one lied at all but simply didn't know DA was present in such high levels.

You bring up a good point about "well aged" juice. I am not a chemist, but it is my understanding that diacetyl is found in beer/wine because of the fermentation process. It makes one wonder if some sort of similar reaction is occurring in e-juice as it oxidizes. We already know acetoin can "catalyze" into DA.

This might be one explanation of differing results between labs -- the samples differ in age.

 

[kates]

I know that DR F in one of the interviews said that low levels (I think around 10ppm) were considered 'contamination' i.e. they could be naturally occuring in some flavours or could be as a result of the interaction between two or more elements in the juice. He said this was not of concern at these levels but seemed fairly adamant that levels of e.g. 100ppm could not be anything but 'intentionally added' (either by flavour or juice manufacturers). It may well be that this needs further investigation however it may also be a red herring. 5P have made some comments regarding this on their site - yet haven't looked for this explanation in c9's results and haven't produced any tests to support this (I am aware it could take some time to investigate fully but 5P do have unsteeped, some steeped (normal range) and extra steeped (reserve) so it would be pretty simple for them to do at least initial tests to support this?)

 

[puddinman]

Aside from what you or I think about DA/AP, do you think it is okay for 5P to *let* some of their retailers continue to sell their products as DA/AP free? I say *let* becasue as we have seen, 5P is very concerned with anything untrue said about them from their retailers. Or are they?

what I would be concerned with is if 5P themselves actually marketed their products as DA/AP free. They can't control what representations retailers make. Now if it comes out that 5Ps literature for retailers indicates that their products are DA/AP free, then I would have a problem with that.

As it stands, I see no evidence that 5P has made any claims to that effect.

Their retailers must be on a bulk email list (at the very least) for such a professional and "perfectionist" company, right?! But yet I can still find some that say things like this on their site (and this is a direct quote): Five Pawns contains no artificial flavors or colors and definitely does not contain diacetyl, acetyl propionyl or acetoin. [Note: that is a different site than the first one I posted -- "definitely"!] LOL.

To be clear, that isn't on 5P site. If a retailer makes claims like that, that's on them, not 5P. If 5P told them to say that, then that's another thing entirely.

Now, if they posted test results of 5P like Cloud 9 did, do you think 5P would then take notice? And if you think that the sites that sell 5P this way are only far and few between, I would then say: Cloud 9 was only ONE site. But that sure didn't stop 5P from issuing a C&D for saying something 5P deemed to be untrue -- this should be no different, but it is becasue it doesn't make them look good.

C9 made a very public display of publishing their results. 5P immediately felt the backlash. The site you refer to above is just a blurb they came up to advertise and 5P may not even know it exists.

Retailers should not make claims about products they sell. They should either decide to sell it or not.

 

[zoiDman]

You bring up a good point about "well aged" juice. I am not a chemist, but it is my understanding that diacetyl is found in beer/wine because of the fermentation process. It makes one wonder if some sort of similar reaction is occurring in e-juice as it oxidizes. We already know acetoin can "catalyze" into DA.

This might be one explanation of differing results between labs -- the samples differ in age.

Seems like this would be a Relatively Easy thing to do a Controlled Test for.

Because it Isn't enough to Say that a Chemical Process can happen. This tends to let people Draw a Box around something while saying... "See, there is the Problem. It Miller Time".

To me, I would like to Know if a Chemical Process can Happen? And if it Can, Quantify it to compare the Numbers with a Real World Observation.

Can a Well Aged e-Liquid reach Diacetyl levels that the Cloud9's Lab Found when it Start out at the Diacetyl levels that Five Pawns 2014 Lab Reports showed?

And is Diacetyl even the Bad Actor in all this. Wasn't it the Acetylpropionyl that Cloud9's Lab showed to be so High?