Cloud9vaping pulls Five Pawns and other liquids from the shelf after testing.

[Robert Cromwell]

The larger point was that using a car for its intended purpose is far more likely to harm/kill you than vaping a butter flavor.

No the point is that any juice maker that knowingly had high levels of diacetyl in their products after the issues with diacetyl were known and did not tell their customers are potentially guilty of criminal actions.
And deserve none of our business.
How the facts shake out on who knew what when are still up in the air but it does not look good to me at this point.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Me gives up. Good Night all.

 

[JohnD0406]

five pawns replied:

News - Five Pawns

 

[ImThatGuy]

Err? They were founded in 2012? I don't remember them back then. First I've seen them was in late 2013...

 

[puddinman]

Even if your data points weren't pulled out of your -edit- patookas -edit- that is a terrible analogy.

Is it wrong? Do you have data points that show vaping butter flavor is just as dangerous as driving? I'd sure like to see that...

Im not looking to argue or piss people off. I'm just calling for a bit of perspective.

 

[hypocritelecteur]

But you're not drawing that perspective from any real data set. You're just comparing one imaginary statistic to another imaginatlry statistic.

Why you're acting like I am contradicting your statement is beyond me. I don't have those statistics and neither do you. Rejecting a premise is completely different than claiming a contrary point. This stuff is confusing enough without fictitious data points, or people weighing in with how they feel one danger might compare with another. Just go ahead and get the numbers and actually compare them otherwise you're wasting your breath and everyone's time only to muddle an already opaque conversation.

Just try to retain a shred of rationality, eh folks?
Didn't mean to single you in particular out, this happens on every page of the thread multiple times. People projecting their feelings about how something might possibly be rather than actually finding anything out and around and aroundnwe go.

 

[Racehorse]

Five Pawns replied:

News - Five Pawns

Saw that. I guess i"m left with even further questions now. Couldn't all this have been amicably resolved if Five Pawns had just responded in a friendly manner to one of their distributors, Cloud 9, back when they were notified of problems back in May? Couldn't this have just been a friendly phone call?

Instead, it became about not bothering to respond, thus getting delisted by what appears to be a honest well respected but small UK shop.... then deleting any and all FB comments, and finally, issuing threatening Cease and Desist orders.......*aggressively* pursuing legal action. etc.

I guess when you sell ejuice for $30 a bottle, you can do that stuff. But for me, its a huge turn-off.

By the way the owner of 5P was never even a smoker. There are many businesses like this who are mainly into the startup markets in the same way venture capitalists are....they go where the $$ is...and they have the money to enter with a big splash. (In case nobody noticed, if you see the slick print ads, the professionally produced videos, etc. they've obviously "done this before. There's a lot of money behind an outfit like this...its all very um...shiny. )

Conversely, from what I understand, Cloud9 is basically a very respected, but smallish "mom and pop" shop in the UK in biz since 2009.

5P may not realize this, but I think 5P may end up being seen as the "bully" here. To be honest, a lot of that slick marketing and carefully "staged" sets, with the wine barrels, etc. is kinda all.....well....... theatrical-elitist-connoiseur to me. It actually reminded me a lot of NJOY, who are infused by multi millions.....NJOY has such well-produced marketing too.

Maybe worrying about BT isn't going to be the way it finally all plays out after all.....maybe it will be the big money venture capitalist type vape outfits who will be the only ones left standing when the dust settles in next few years? I have always thought that, and now that I"ve seen all this "lawyering-up" in this scenario..... The ones who can afford to flip a finger.......whether it be at Cloud9, AESMA, FDA... or anyone else? (because litigation costs money.....just ask Totally Wicked.)

Next, the test results from both outfits seem very far apart, right? What do you guys make of that?

I don't think C9 had any interest in sinking any eliquid makers....they've never acted like that and they've been around since 2009?

IMHO........there is more than meets the eye here still..........I just don't know what it is.

 

[kates]

The results are from 2014 and in their statement 5 Pawns basically say they have no problem with AP. It looks as if they replaced diacetyl with AP, dispute that either are a problem and say they are happy with relatively high levels of AP there own tests show on some products:
Five Pawns does not feel there is any concern with diacetyl or AP in our e-liquids at current levels. AP can be an important flavor enhancer for flavor profiles that are creamy in nature, and is used widely in the food and beverage industries.
I assume they have never said they were AP free (their diacetyl levels were low on the Cloud 9 test) so as far as I'm concerned that's fine. The consumer, knowing that, can make a choice. Why on earth didn't they say this immediately? They haven't re-tested (which I'd assumed was the reason for the delay) so seems a bit silly not to have said this as soon as Cloud 9 told them and returned their juice.
Cloud 9 are a small and well respected company - I started vaping in early 2013 and they were established and well respected then.

 

[kates]

Of course if I was cynical I would say they have retested, but the results came back higher than 2014 so they had to stick with them.

 

[Racehorse]

5 Pawns basically say they have no problem with AP. It looks as if they replaced diacetyl with AP, dispute that either are a problem and say they are happy with relatively high levels of AP there own tests show on some products:
Five Pawns does not feel there is any concern with diacetyl or AP in our e-liquids at current levels.

The consumer, knowing that, can make a choice. Why on earth didn't they say this immediately? They haven't re-tested (which I'd assumed was the reason for the delay) so seems a bit silly not to have said this as soon as Cloud 9 told them and returned their juice.

Cloud 9 are a small and well respected company - I started vaping in early 2013 and they were established and well respected then.

yeah, kates....I guess I don't get why 5 Pawns didn't just respond quickly to C9 in the first place, could have just agreed to disagree, parted amicably and professionally........and without all the drama. (unless 5P wanted a lot of attention drawn to them?....beats paying for advertising, you know the sayig even bad publicity is free publicity).

However.....Case closed for me. I trust Dr. F's conclusions about AP, that it shouldn't be in our lungs, so 5P is just another bottle filler I can cross off my list.

 

[rurwin]

How many people diagnosed with COPD have had a biopsy? How many people with smoking-related disease listed on their death certificate have had a post-mortem? It seems to me that the answer in both cases is probably "very few."

ETA: There are two sets of test results linked to 5P's news release. They give very different levels of AP for Bowden's Mate. If I was them, I would have been very surprised at that and made it my business to find out why it happened. If two samples can differ by nearly 50% there is something very wrong somewhere.

I looked into this when Dr. F's study was published because Grant's Vanilla Custard was my ADV at the time. They display a "certificate" on the website saying that the liquid has been tested for dangerous chemicals. When I asked the testers what that involved, they said they currently tested for DA at 0.1% but that GVC had been tested before DA was included. I made Grant aware of the facts and he made good-sounding noises, but the old certificate is still there and DA is not mentioned anywhere on the site. There is a Health Warning page, but it only mentions nicotine.

Unlike most juice manufacturers, GVC only sells the one flavour, so if it has huge DA/AP content it might be business suicide to change the formula. On the other hand, he is aware of the danger. If someone sues him he may be in significant difficulty.

At this point, the only venders we can buy from and expect zero DA/AP are the ones who publish assays or convince us they have them.

 

[WillyZee]

And the plot thickens ...


Sent via iPhone

 

[Bahiaboy]

Looks like the Thread on UK Vapers with all the links has been pulled !!

 

[440BB]

I guess calling an attorney was much easier than actually reformulating one's liquid to be a bit safer.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Are those the same eliquids that were in the Cloud Nine test? Wish I had clipped and saved the Cloud nine results to compare apples to apples. Was the test results of both os them in the same output format ug/ml?

Have to wait and see how it shakes out.

 

[Pinggolfer]

yeah, kates....I guess I don't get why 5 Pawns didn't just respond quickly to C9 in the first place, could have just agreed to disagree, parted amicably and professionally........and without all the drama. (unless 5P wanted a lot of attention drawn to them?....beats paying for advertising, you know the sayig even bad publicity is free publicity).

You don't know that as a fact. Is now speaking on the phone a criminal act are we compelled to communicate via text and email. Five Pawns doesn't need publicity at all. Have you ever saw a sale from Five Pawns? They made their case and you can take from what you want.

However.....Case closed for me. I trust Dr. F's conclusions about AP, that it shouldn't be in our lungs, so 5P is just another bottle filler I can cross off my list.

Was Five Pawns ever on your list?

Looks like the Thread on UK Vapers with all the links has been pulled !!

I wonder why?

This week, it came to our attention that fraudulent claims have been made about our e-liquids. We take these accusations very seriously, not only for ourselves but the industry as a whole. It is reckless and liable to post test results on products using a non-validated method. Therefore, we have issued a Cease and Desist in the matter and are aggressively pursuing all legal remedy necessary to correct the public record.

I better order Castle Long Reserve before they are out of stock.

 

[Pinggolfer]

Cloud9vaping.co.uk @Cloud9Vaping
Information relating to specific products tested as part of our testing/due diligence processes has been removed pending legal advice.

The hammer has fallen.

 

[puddinman]

But you're not drawing that perspective from any real data set. You're just comparing one imaginary statistic to another imaginatlry statistic.

Motor vehicle deaths and injuries are not imaginary data points. The risk from driving can be calculated to some degree. Diacetyl death and injury is not imaginary either. How long has vaping butter flavor been a thing? A few years at least? And how many BO cases have been reported? None. The only documented death and injury has been in industrial settings.

That is real data, even if it is incomplete. Thus, I stand by my hypothesis that driving is more dangerous than vaping butter flavor. The point being to put some perspective on how risky vaping may be compared with other common daily activities. This was in response to many posts here declaring diacetyl to be "dangerous," or at the very least worthy of great concern.

Why you're acting like I am contradicting your statement is beyond me. I don't have those statistics and neither do you. Rejecting a premise is completely different than claiming a contrary point. This stuff is confusing enough without fictitious data points, or people weighing in with how they feel one danger might compare with another. Just go ahead and get the numbers and actually compare them otherwise you're wasting your breath and everyone's time only to muddle an already opaque conversation.

I disagree. There are numbers. MVAs result in about 33000 deaths every year. Diacetyl has been linked to much fewer deaths and then only in industrial settings -and even then it was only a correlation which does not always equal causation. Those are facts.

What I'm trying to get across is the idea that people should not react out of fear based on zero evidence. Artificial sweeteners are a good example where fear wins out over facts.

Just try to retain a shred of rationality, eh folks?
Didn't mean to single you in particular out, this happens on every page of the thread multiple times. People projecting their feelings about how something might possibly be rather than actually finding anything out and around and aroundnwe go.

i don't think I'm projecting my feelings. I'm using rationality to arrive at a conclusion. With diacetyl, there is nothing to find out. The only injuries have come in industrial settings. If industrial-level exposure and injury were the criteria used to determine harmfulness of chemicals, we would all be drinking purified water and organic vegetables.

The topic is indeed murky. Fear is what causes the murk. Look at things as they are and draw conclusions without letting the fear circuit influence your thinking (the general you).

 

[Robert Cromwell]

The hammer is just poised.
Was the cloud 9 test results in ppm or something besides ug/ml?

 

[Siam Diesel]

5P's tactics reek of big money...why do you need to wake up the lawyers if you've got nothing to hide. A sad day for the vape community. I'm going to give my business to someone else on general principle.

Was the cloud 9 test results in ppm or something besides ug/ml?

The C9 results can be found here.