Codman Square group, city to take on e-cigarettes

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Vocalek

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Thanks for posting this. I've written to the reporter.

Many people have problems sorting out opinion from fact. The fact that a young person was sent into a store and was able to purchase an e-cigarette does not prove the opinion "They are targeted to young people." How many youngsters are buying them? What percent of the market is represented by non-smokers under age 18? What advertising and sales promotions are aimed at non-smoking teenagers?
 

dee5

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I left this comment:

Ok, lets take this line by line:
"..another addictive and potentially harmful product:e-cigarettes"
Every negative article about electronic cigarettes I've read uses words like potentially or possibly. You know what? WATER is potentially harmful, if you drink too much of it too fast, you could die! This is a misleading word often used by opponents of e-cigs to make it look like they know what they are talking about. Show us your data please!
"..target young people.."
I don't know any children or young people under the legal age to buy cigarettes that 1) Have a credit card 2)Have $100 to buy a kit with 3)Would care to spend all the time necessary to learn how to use and maintain these things 4)Think it would make them look like anything other than a complete dork to their friends. No delicious sounding nicotine liquid flavor in the world is going to change this. I don't know about you but my taste buds haven't died as I've gotten older and I enjoy vaping flavors like Pear and Cinnamon. Would you say Nicorette Gum targets kids with flavors like White Ice Mint, Fruit Chill and Cinnamon Surge?
Ooooo, better ban those too!
"..the teenager was not carded.."
Would the vendor card the kid for just walking up and wanting to talk about it? Picture this: Minor approaches e-cig vendor, e-cig vendor says "Beat it kid, these products are for adults". I guess you could say the kid wasn't carded under these circumstances either. Lets say the conversation gets further than that and the kid actually got to the point where he said he wanted to purchase one. Was he carded then? Did it even get this far? Did the vendor let the kid try one? We can't know the answers to these questions because we only get to read/hear the inflammatory one liner propaganda.
"Several companies that make them have branded themselves as addiction aids"
(Nice grammar) Manufacturers of e-cigs have learned not to make these claims or the FDA will descend on their heads. In spite of the thousands of e-cigs users that have quit smoking or reduced their cigarette addiction, the FDA has already lost twice in Federal Court trying to regulate them as a drug delivery device. They know how much funding they recieve from Pharmaceutical companies who stand to lose millions when people realize how effective e-cigs are and stop buying Nicorette and Nicoderm products.
"...presented findings on the dangers of e-cigarettes.."
The findings? This sounds so definate, doesn't it? If so, then why is it still only "potentially harmful"? I'm sorry, you can't claim "They're dangerous!" in one breath and then in the next claim " more studies need to be done". Studies HAVE been done, they are 99% safer than smoking and AS safe as the patch or gum if not more so.
Electronic cigarettes are saving thousands of lives everyday and for our public administrators to try to ban their use should be a crime.
 

Vocalek

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Just found this absolutely fabulous reponse:

I am a board-certified pediatrician. I don’t smoke cigarettes, and I’ve never tried an e-cigarette or any other type of personal vaporizer.

That being said, this is nothing more than a crusade against smokers - and to make matters worse, the crusade is aimed specifically at smokers who are TRYING to stop smoking.

I find it interesting that an FDA spokesman says that studies have not been adequately carried out to address the toxic properties of e-cigarettes, since the FDA actually DID carry out a study designed to do just that; and despite the way they spun the results in their press conference, they actually found e-cigarettes to be no more toxic than the countless FDA-approved forms of nicotine replacement therapy, and CERTAINLY much less toxic than tobacco cigarettes. Which, by the way, have been under FDA regulation for more than a year now, and are still very much on the market.

In my practice, I have yet to meet a child or teenager who uses e-cigarettes. I have not yet met a child or teenager who can’t wait to get their hands on bubblegum- or chocolate-flavored water vapor, either. Anecdotally, it seems to me that kids in general would be much happier with actual bubblegum or chocolate.

I do, however, see more asthma in my practice than any other single diagnosis. I also see a number of children with obesity, poor grades, and ADHD, and ALL of these chronic medical problems have known associations with passive smoke exposure. Many of the children I see with asthma don’t have parents who smoke; however, many are unfortunate enough to live in apartment buildings or other type of multi-unit housing, which are known to expose inhabitants to higher levels of passive smoke.

From a harm reduction standpoint, it is my opinion that the benefits to children when their parents or neighbors quit smoking far outweigh any theoretical risk that children might be enticed to use an e-cigarette.

===========
In the interest of disclosure: I do not own stock in any e-cigarette companies, or have any other financial or otherwise beneficial relationship with the e-cigarette industry.
 

rothenbj

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Glad you posted that response. I read it on my phone, but it was too long and difficult to copy paste and I forgot I wanted to get that on here. We need more knowledgeable physicians stepping forward and making a statement. I found it particularly poignant comping from a pediatrician.
 

CJsKee

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It's a decent enough response...the problem begins with ". . .I also see a number of children with obesity, poor grades, and ADHD, and ALL of these chronic medical problems have known associations with passive smoke exposure. Many of the children I see with asthma don’t have parents who smoke; however, many are unfortunate enough to live in apartment buildings or other type of multi-unit housing, which are known to expose inhabitants to higher levels of passive smoke."

Pure BS, propaganda and dis-information!
 

Vocalek

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It's a decent enough response...the problem begins with ". . .I also see a number of children with obesity, poor grades, and ADHD, and ALL of these chronic medical problems have known associations with passive smoke exposure. Many of the children I see with asthma don’t have parents who smoke; however, many are unfortunate enough to live in apartment buildings or other type of multi-unit housing, which are known to expose inhabitants to higher levels of passive smoke."

Pure BS, propaganda and dis-information!

Have to agree with you about that part. Wonder if he has ever considered whether or not ADHD might be hereditary. So instead of interpreting the association between smoking and ADHD as "the smoking caused the kid's ADHD" the causal route might be that genetics caused both the kid's and the parents ADHD, that nicotine is keeping it under control for the parents, and that someday the kid might find that nicotine has a lot fewer annoying side effects than Concerta or Adderal.

This is the first I ever heard of obesity being tied to passive smoke exposure. Why wasn't I a blimp as a kid, back when half the population (including half of my parents) were smokers? I'm pretty sure that my generation weighed a lot less than today's kids overall.

Why weren't both my kids blimps, considering that they had two smokers in the home most of their childhood?

Poor grades? I was on the honor roll every marking period, and my boys made it several times. Maybe the fact is that more poor people smoke, and that teaching and learning in poor neighborhoods leaves a lot to be desired.

The only one I might buy would be the asthma, since where allergies are concerned, anything can trigger anything.

But, I had one kid with asthma, one without. Shouldn't they both have had it?

Let me add one of my favorite sayings, "Association is not necessarily causation."
 

kristin

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I posted a comment on this yesterday:

NateMD is absolutely correct. We must weigh the positives against the negatives. There are millions of smokers who will benefit by switching from tobacco cigarettes to smoke-free e-cigarettes compared to the very few teens who may decide to purchase a $100, high-maintanence e-cigarette. Teens are much more likely to buy a real pack of cigarettes for $7 or real candy, not a flavored e-cigarette seen as a reduced harm option for "old smokers." And it's important to realize that any teens interested in buying smokeless e-cigarettes would otherwise be buying toxic tobacco cigarettes!

The responsible way to address this issue would be to prohibit the sale of e-cigarettes to minors, not make these life-saving devices harder to buy or use for adult smokers trying to reduce their health risks.

I am an e-cigarette user and a former smoker. Because of e-cigarettes, I, my husband, my brother and his wife have not touched a real cigarette in over a year. NONE of us have experienced anything but improved breathing and otherwise better health.

As far as the flavors "targeting kids," because adult smokers wouldn't want the sweet flavors, this is an example of people talking about something they simply don't understand. The vast majority of e-cigarette users surveyed by CASAA were between the ages of 30-65, former smokers and used non-tobacco flavored e-cigarettes. Since the fake "tobacco" e-cigarette flavors taste nothing like real cigarettes and tobacco smoke tastes particularly foul after one has switched to e-cigarettes, many adult e-cigarette users prefer pleasant-tasting flavors such as strawberry, grape, coffee, cola, etc. The variety of non-tobacco flavors also helps keep these adult ex-smokers from craving real cigarettes. In fact, for some, the tobacco flavors simply reinforce the desire for the real thing and they don't want that! My sister-in-law and I found that our favorite flavors are mocha cappuccino, peach, grape and blueberry. I am 43 and she is 40. Without those flavors, being limited to fake tobacco flavors, we never would have been able to completely switch from smoking. Additionally, my 19 year old niece and her boyfriend, who are smokers, didn't want to deal with the cost and fuss of dealing with e-cigarettes - which, unfortunately, is common in younger smokers. These young adults are still smoking and that is what the teens who want to emulate them are doing. The fact of the matter is, while there is no age restriction, kids are NOT choosing to buy a safer alternative - they are buying the real thing.

So, when health professionals assume and claim that adult smokers would not like these "candy flavors" (as they call them to scare parents) and that the flavors must be targeting kids, who will now buy them en masse, they couldn't be more wrong!

As far as e-cigarettes not being covered by indoor smoking bans, that is how it should be. E-cigarettes DON'T MAKE SMOKE. The bans were put in place to protect bystanders from SMOKE, not from NON-toxic VAPOR. No testing, even the testing by the FDA, has found toxic levels of any chemical nor harmful levels of carcinogens in e-cigarettes. (Everything has carcinogens, it's HOW MUCH that matters.)

So, if it isn't harming the user, how could it possibly harm bystanders?? The liquid is made of propylene glycol (a non-toxic base used in theater fog machines), non-toxic glycerin, food-grade flavorings and a small amount of USP-grade nicotine, most of which is absorbed by the user. The vapor has little to no smell, is non-irritating and does not linger in the air like cigarette smoke.

Additionally, smokers who see e-cigarette users enjoying their device indoors will be encouraged to switch to these low-risk options and ultimately, stop using real cigarettes altogether, as millions of smokers have already done. Making e-cigarette users go outside takes away that incentive and reduces the number of smokers making the switch. Isn't that the opposite of what these indoor bans intended?

There is absolutely no justification for prohibiting and very good reasons to encourage public use of e-cigarettes. Even those who are concerned that it "looks like smoking" cannot argue that it would NOT be difficult to explain to a kid that an e-cigarette is NOT smoking and it is actually an example of an adult showing responsibility for his health and the health of those around him by choosing a much safer alternative to cigarettes. Wouldn't that be better than the kids seeing that person otherwise standing in the parking lot with a lit cigarette??
 

Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah

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It's a decent enough response...the problem begins with ". . .I also see a number of children with obesity, poor grades, and ADHD, and ALL of these chronic medical problems have known associations with passive smoke exposure. Many of the children I see with asthma don’t have parents who smoke; however, many are unfortunate enough to live in apartment buildings or other type of multi-unit housing, which are known to expose inhabitants to higher levels of passive smoke."

Pure BS, propaganda and dis-information!

There are many, MANY other things that can, and do, cause these issues in kids...first and formost being the staggering amount of HFCS in foods today. There are a lot of kids today that are diagnosed with ADHD who are not learning-disabled, only so hyped up on sugar that it mimics the symptoms of ADHD.

Obesity in our youth - let's point that one SQUARELY toward the eating habits of these kids - if they eat more empty calories and don't get regular physical activity (and sitting in front of the tube, computer, or gaming console don't count as excercise in ANYONE'S playbook!!!) they are going to look like they do - I can't countanance anyone trying to tie smoking (passive or active) to obesity - that's more than just a small stretch and shows just HOW much people are willing to demonize tobacco nowadays.

Poor grades? That one's another looooooong stretch to try to tie in to smoking. Try looking, instead, toward the current curriculum, the overcrowding of our schools, the lack of decent funding, and the laxidaisal attitudes of today' parents to NOT give their children the dicipline they need to become productive adults.

It's sad, really, to see medical professionals spout the same anti-hatred they've been force-fed by the alphabet organizations...it proves the point that if one shouts the lie long and loud enough, it becomes truth.
 

sherid

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I wrote this email to the reporter. I did not get a response.
I urge you to please investigate your stance on electronic cigarettes and the motives of its opponents. Dr. Michael Siegel is a leading member of your community, a professor of public health at Boston University, an expert in tobacco issues, and a leading proponent of electronic cigarettes as an alternative to tobacco cigarettes. Before jumping on another ban wagon, why not look at what is really going on with the campaign against e cigarettes. You may read Dr. Siegel's blog at The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary or call him at the university.
 

GMoney

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It's a decent enough response...the problem begins with ". . .I also see a number of children with obesity, poor grades, and ADHD, and ALL of these chronic medical problems have known associations with passive smoke exposure. Many of the children I see with asthma don’t have parents who smoke; however, many are unfortunate enough to live in apartment buildings or other type of multi-unit housing, which are known to expose inhabitants to higher levels of passive smoke."

Pure BS, propaganda and dis-information!

You are 100% correct!

but, I've been thinking it may just be in our self interest to go with it ...

Since we all know second hand SMOKE causes all the disease in the world, killing 100 Billion people a day who would otherwise live to be 300 years old, you MUST support converting all SMOKERS to personal vaporizers immediately! ;)
 

Nicko

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I left this comment. By the way, I often wonder, considering that ecf has so many thousands of members, why do such a relatively small number of us ever take the time to comment on news articles? Collectively we could make a far greater impact. I'm sure most of us could easily find at least an hour a week to actively promote our cause. Of course I realize that some of you do far more than that, and, god bless you.

Nicko wrote:
I can assure you, electronic cigarettes are not targetted to young people. They were invented by a pharmacist while he watched his father dying of smoking related lung cancer. Electronic cigarettes are being sold to people who want a safer alternative to smoking. Banning the sale of these products to people under legal smoking age would be sensible and responsible. However, banning sales outright would result in users of these life-saving products returning to smoking deadly tobacco cigarettes. It seems clear that the people who want to ban e-cigarettes have no understanding of of the benefits of switching to a reduced harm alternative to smoking. As far as I'm concerned, the inventor of e-cigarettes deserves the Nobel prize for outstanding contributions to improving the health of mankind.
 

Demarko

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I left this comment. By the way, I often wonder, considering that ecf has so many thousands of members, why do such a relatively small number of us ever take the time to comment on news articles? Collectively we could make a far greater impact. I'm sure most of us could easily find at least an hour a week to actively promote our cause. Of course I realize that some of you do far more than that, and, god bless you.

Nicko wrote:
I can assure you, electronic cigarettes are not targetted to young people. They were invented by a pharmacist while he watched his father dying of smoking related lung cancer. Electronic cigarettes are being sold to people who want a safer alternative to smoking. Banning the sale of these products to people under legal smoking age would be sensible and responsible. However, banning sales outright would result in users of these life-saving products returning to smoking deadly tobacco cigarettes. It seems clear that the people who want to ban e-cigarettes have no understanding of of the benefits of switching to a reduced harm alternative to smoking. As far as I'm concerned, the inventor of e-cigarettes deserves the Nobel prize for outstanding contributions to improving the health of mankind.

I do try to if the points I want to make haven't been brought up, but often times I feel like I'm just saying "Ditto to that" and that's just kinda... meh... to me.
 

Vocalek

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If you knew how few of the ECF members realized that their freedom to use e-cigarettes is in jeopardy, you would be surprised. Many folks never make it past the the product reviews and advice to newbies. E-cigarettes are not in the local news every day, so most people just don't realize what is going on.

Seems to me that ECF needs a permanent banner up top that steers newcomers to the News forums.
 

Demarko

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Casaa should find out how much it would cost to purchase banner ads on ECF or other ecig forums/sites. I imagine they'd get a break. But does anyone actually click the google ads at the top of every page? I imagine no. Animated banner saying, "Did you know your right to vape is in question" "*Flash* Find out more at casaa.org"
 

DC2

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Casaa should find out how much it would cost to purchase banner ads on ECF or other ecig forums/sites. I imagine they'd get a break. But does anyone actually click the google ads at the top of every page? I imagine no. Animated banner saying, "Did you know your right to vape is in question" "*Flash* Find out more at casaa.org"
I've posted threads in the General Discussion subforum with titles similar to that.
Those thread then direct people to check out these subforums here.

The last time I posted such a thread, it was bumped once by someone else.
By the end of the day it had fallen off the first page.

Sometimes I think, as a group, we deserve whatever fate befalls us.
:(
 
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