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Cole-Bishop Failed. What now for vape?

Discussion in 'ECF Competitions and Broadcasts' started by Oliver, May 5, 2017.

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  1. Oliver

    Oliver ECF Founder, formerly SmokeyJoe Admin Verified Member

    • Like Like x 19
  2. cooladdict

    cooladdict Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 28, 2012
    Seahawk Nation
    Thank you, sir! This is very helpful. I feel a little better about things now. Great read! :)
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Bad Ninja

    Bad Ninja Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jun 26, 2013
    Salton Sea, CA
    Whats next?
    Challenges in court once enforcement starts.
    Thats when the FDAs overreach will be tested in court.
    Until precedent is set, it's still up in the air.
    There is too much money at stake for everyone to just roll over.

    However I'm interested in how they plan on enforcing any of this, and who's budget has funds earmarked to pay for enforcement?
    • Like Like x 9
  4. MMW

    MMW Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Oct 8, 2015
    Wondering the same.
    • Like Like x 4
  5. jseah

    jseah Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 16, 2015
    Hudson Valley, NY, USA
    I doubt it had any impact, but one would hope that the fact that New Zealand eased restrictions on vaping and now Australia is considering de-criminalizing nicotine vaping products also influences the FDA's thinking.
    • Like Like x 4
  6. Oliver

    Oliver ECF Founder, formerly SmokeyJoe Admin Verified Member

    Outsourcing to state agencies?
    • Like Like x 2
  7. Kent C

    Kent C ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2009
    NW Ohio US
    Not my favorite piece written by you....

    Your one comment:
    "I don't believe there's any evidence to show that vape is driving down smoking, no. That doesn't mean I don't think there's an effect, just that the temptation to say:" look at the decline in smoking and look at the rise of vaping" is a mistake."

    I'd guess that 99% of the people who have posted in this forum, past and present, (and people we all know who vape but don't post here) belies this statement. I'm not saying all who post are 'smoke-free' (but a large percentage are), but even those who are still dual users smoke less cigarettes than they did.

    And this 'can't we all get along' stuff:
    "Pamela Gorman, of SFATA, put it perfectly in her emailed response to the Cole-Bishop rejection:

    “…. we must not (publicly) blame people who don’t understand is important to give people the space..."

    While it is true that we shouldn't blame those who truly don't understand vaping, that simply is not the case with most politicians and bureaucrats who have voted (or acted) to restrict vaping. They understand quite well, and they themselves don't "give people space" - they restrict our views from their seminars and work groups, banning people who have the information needed, but again, they already "understand" that information - it's why they don't let those people present their case.
    • Like Like x 23
  8. Robino1

    Robino1 Resting in Peace ECF Veteran

    Excellent article as the usual.

    I can't help but think that smart phones are chasing the boredom away. Plus it keeps the hands busy. LOL

    I don't know if I feel we can contribute smart phones as the reason, it may well be a combination of things.

    This day and age, we see more and more parents OD'ing while their child is strapped in a car seat. These images will probably do more to the teenage, and younger, mind.

    How does this help us? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Dunno...

    At this point in time, I have a little hope but it is fading fast. This world has gone crazy...or it could be my eyes have been opened wide and they refuse to shut again. *sigh*

    Sometimes I wish I could go back to when I was naive...
    • Like Like x 15
  9. JoeMischief

    JoeMischief Senior Member

    Apr 21, 2017
    I'm inclined to sit on the fence regarding smartphones. It certainly is an interesting proposition that the smartphone has given a new generation the fiddle factor to divert many from smoking and is a very credible theory. Maybe a combination of the both smartphone use AND vaping is contributing to the decline. We need to be astute enough to accept other rational arguments as our opposers will latch onto them if we are not prepared. Having said that the two 19 year olds in my house have smartphones glued to their hands. It neither prevented nor subdued their will to smoke. Only vaping did that. Of course a singular case study of my own house is nothing more than that. I also worked in pubs, bars and night clubs for decades through the advent and rise to popularity of the smart phone. I've seen enough teens and twenty some things through that period with a cigarette in one hand and a smartphone in the other to know it was a factor but not the whole story... As with many subjects multiple facets make up the rich tapestry of a complex matter such as an addiction. We need to be clever and embrace them all... Keep fighting Oliver.
    • Like Like x 7
  10. Lessifer

    Lessifer Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    I understand short term fights, and needing to keep the industry alive long enough to fight. I really wish there was more of a push to separate nicotine from tobacco. We know the PMTA process will kill vaping, either quickly without a grandfather date change, or slowly with the date change as the industry stagnates and dies through the thousand cuts tobacco control will inflict over time.

    The TCA itself is horrible legislation, putting vaping within that framework just compounds the problem.
    • Like Like x 15
  11. Tintreach

    Tintreach Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    We will never see change until the FDA quits siding with money coming in from the lobbyist of the big companies! Our country was founded on freedom from monarchy governments and ruling churches which controlled everything. The stipulation of "separation of church and state" now needs to be amended to "separation of church, corporation and state". Until our laws and regulations are not being derived from monetary conflicts of interest we are right back were we started 250'ish years ago.

    MaryJ (why is this word censored here?) is becoming legal yet vaping, raw milk, rain barrels and solar power are slowly being outlawed. Confused yet? I am!
    • Like Like x 17
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. theday1smine

    theday1smine Full Member Verified Member

    Apr 11, 2017
    Thanks For this Oliver!
    ...very informative.
  13. DC2

    DC2 Tootie Puffer Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 21, 2009
    San Diego
    You know what, I'm doing just that.
    Been doing it for awhile now.

    I stopped watching mainstream news a long time ago.
    It's been perverted beyond repair at this point.

    But now I've stopped watching trusted news sources.
    Because I am a delicate flower and I just can't take the insanity anymore.

    I just don't want to hear about the nut jobs anymore.
    The communists, the socialists, the ANTIFA.

    I'm going to go back to being naive again.
    I liked it that way.

    My wife can inform me of all things that are relevant to our continued existence.
    She has more patience than I do, and can tolerate a lot more BS than I can.

    She is an avid reader, and beats me at Jeopardy at least 66.67% of the time.
    She is a trusted adviser.
    • Like Like x 19
  14. Oliver

    Oliver ECF Founder, formerly SmokeyJoe Admin Verified Member

    Specifically, I'm referring to the decline in uptake in adolescents - NOT the effect vape is having on existing smokers. If that's not clear, perhaps I need to make it so.

    • Like Like x 9
  15. Oliver

    Oliver ECF Founder, formerly SmokeyJoe Admin Verified Member

    Why nicotine from tobacco? Why not smoking from other forms of tobacco?
    • Like Like x 5
  16. DC2

    DC2 Tootie Puffer Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 21, 2009
    San Diego
    Isn't the correct answer "both" though?
    • Like Like x 5
  17. dcdozer

    dcdozer Super Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 26, 2015
    Northern VA
    Yeah, I think the original verbiage comes across in a way you didn't intend. Your response above makes a lot more sense.

    Thanks for all you do!
    • Like Like x 2
  18. Lessifer

    Lessifer Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Ultimately that would be ideal, but that would take revision/repeal of the fsptca itself which I haven't seen anyone ask for. I'd be all for it, since even the cigarette part is bad for public health, for the same reasons it is bad for vaping.

    Although, and I could be completely wrong because I haven't looked into this, there is still the dependency issue with smokeless tobacco, right?

    If a person starts with snus, dip, chew do they become addicted? I truly believe a non tobacco user who tried vaping, with nicotine, does not form a physical dependence.
    • Like Like x 5
  19. cats5365

    cats5365 Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Dec 27, 2013
    United States
    Back in the olden days when I was a kid, most of our first cigarettes were stolen from an unattended pack left by a parent. All you needed back then was a pack of matches and 1 or 2 cigs from a pack of 20. It was pretty easy to hide if you only took a few at a time from an unattended pack. You could also buy your own once you were hooked since there were no age restrictions back then either. Almost everyone had a smoker in the house, so the supply was available if you wanted it.

    I think that if more of the adults are quitting smoking for vaping, there are fewer opportunities to start smoking, and vaping isn't something that a kid can easily sneak out of a parent's supply without it being noticed. Vaping just requires too much "stuff" to work. Yes, the kids can get the disposable cigalikes, but they are fairly expensive and would need to be obtained at a retail store by bypassing age restrictions.

    I think kids will always try whatever it is they aren't supposed to have, but they do "get" the anti-smoking messages out there. Smartphones and devices may have changed some of the behavior, but I think teenagers are still pretty much the same as ever.

    When I started smoking, I knew it was bad, but I was too smart to get hooked on it. Maybe if vaping had been available back then, I would have tried an e-cig, but probably would have picked one of the lower nic versions, and may not have been hooked. I'll never know since I've ended a 30+ year smoking habit with vaping, and I'm not sure I'm ready to try stopping vaping in the near future. I'm just happy to be a vaper for the past 3 years.
    • Like Like x 12
  20. Kent C

    Kent C ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 12, 2009
    NW Ohio US
    Yeah it was the: "I don't believe there's any evidence to show that vape is driving down smoking..." that was striking coming from you, after all the 'evidence' on this forum, and the actual studies posted by Bill G and the articles we've all read from Siegel*, Brad Rodu, Reason mag, et al.

    *The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary: As E-Cigarettes Re-Normalize Smoking, Adult Smoking Prevalence in 2015 Plummets

    I know in the article itself you were referring to adolescents, but I disagree with you there as well, despite the 'smartphone' argument. :- ) Don't know if a study of adolescent vaping has been done, but just from personal experience and communication with some (and from others' comments here and elsewhere), and the idea that adolescents are going to experiment, I think they've chosen the more rational experiment by vaping, which would cause a reduction in smoking (all else being equal).

    And yes, I said "Don't know" and "I think" but I also don't know of any studies that say otherwise. wrt smoking and vaping...
    • Like Like x 7
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