FDA Comments by Bill Godshall and Smokefree Pennsylvania urge FDA to reject Deeming Regulation, correct fear mongering claims about e-cigs

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DC2

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There have always been people that have not felt comfortable with Mr. Godshall's stance on certain smoking-related issues.

As far as I'm concerned, his work for and with the vaping community overshadows any concerns some may have.
And most who have those concerns feel the same for the most part.

One thing I do know is that he probably doesn't care to get into long debates here regarding those issues.
And I have no problem with that, under the circumstances.
 
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Jman8

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Jman wrote:
Don't know[ B]what length of a sentence has do with anything[/B]. Besides, it came from a speech I gave to dozens of lawyers, who write half page sentences.

That actually made me giggle. I meant length of the entire comment, not the one sentence I chose to offer up for fair criticism.

There was no "bias against BT/smoking" in that excerpt. Rather, it was simply pointing out the estimated number of deaths attributable (based upon scientific evidence) to the use of different tobacco/nicotine products.

Although I think SG Report's estimated deaths caused by secondhand smoke (which were the same as previously estimated by CDC) are too high (as secondhand smoke exposure has dramatically declined in the US the past 2 decades), and although I think the recent SG Report's estimates of deaths due to daily cigarette smoking are too high (as they didn't consider the huge decline in cigarette consumption the past decade), its pretty clear that daily cigarette smoking is still killing at least 350,000 Americans annually.

In sharp comparison, there's no evidence e-cigs have caused any deaths.

Again, please back this up. What are your sources for "daily cigarette smoking is still killing at least 350,000 Americans annually?" Cause this is EXACTLY the thing I was alluding to regarding bias against BT/smoking and then how that plays into validity/criticism against vaping.

I would agree that there is no evidence of eCigs causing deaths. I believe there will be from same sources that say "smoking causes death."


There have been more than 50,000 published studies (and I've read many of them during the past 35 years).

Regardless, Jman's (and anyone else's) denial of the scientific evidence that cigarette smoking causes diseases and deaths is not going to win over anyone (to endorse vaping) who understands or supports science, public health or common sense. In fact, the most effective way to keep e-cigs legal to make, market and use is by repeatedly pointing out the comparative risks and benefits of cigarettes versus e-cigs.

So, you can't provide the scientific evidence? Can't cite the studies?

Just to help you with what I understand to be your point, I believe you'll be able to find data that cites correlation between smoking and adverse health conditions. Not in denial about that. But causation is another matter and one that is misused, quite often. It contributes to a stigmatization and bias that allows for certain data to be perceived as "fact" when it is truly just spin. Kinda like the data that you were rallying against with regards to eCigs and that took you 90,000 words to explain how their spin doesn't make for factual understanding of risks. Even while I'm sure you wouldn't deny that eCigs/vaping have their own risks.

Your certainty that smoking causes death and disease is why I'm fairly confident that people/vapers will soon be parroting data that says vaping causes poor health.

Is it not interesting that many of the same sources (arguably all of them) that have readily available data about what smoking causes are also some of the same sources that are vehemently opposed to vaping?
 

Jman8

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I have to take issue with you on this one. Our esteem in Bill Godshall was not freely given, it was earned. He has decades of experience in advocating for harm reduction and has been very helpful to our community over the years. There is a rather large difference between trusting someone based on your experience with them and "kissing the ring he wears," as you so glibly put it.

And I take issue with your take on what I said. To me, it would be possible to honor Bill's advocacy experience and still speak critically of the lengthy piece that was posted on ECF for all to consider. Again, I see about 80% of what I find to be praiseworthy, but currently feel like the only person that has something more than .0000000001% criticism of what was put up on a discussion forum. That is the part that amazes me, and is why I wrote, "I don't get the free pass that Bill gets, and it strikes me as completely free."

There are other threads (in last few days) that reference lengthy comments submitted to FDA. I believe all of those have had some criticism, if not debate, shared about what they said. Not this one. Why is that????


I want to mention here that his comment as posted here was actually multiple comments as submitted to the FDA. Hence the word "comments" in the title.

I took it as one comment that came in multiple parts because ECF posts generally don't allow 50,000 words in a single post. The other lengthy comments that have been submitted used headings and other ways of organizing what was being conveyed. I felt when reviewing Bill's comment that I could do that myself, but is my experience with document editing and thus something that the author, in this case Bill, was essentially tasking the reader with.

The free pass thing is amazing to me. The debate over this being one really really really really long comment and spinning that as completely passable just adds to my amazement while also kinda sorta humors me.
 

Kent C

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I bolded it to highlight what seemed inaccurate.

I imagine you're not familiar with MSWord. The "edit" menu isn't just for editing. One of the options on the "edit" menu is simply to "find" a particular word in a document wherever it appears.

I'm familiar with MS Word and almost any 'edit' dropdown has 'find'. I use it all the time - that has nothing to do with my comment and like Bill said for him, it's already past the time. And I knew it was there from reading and simply did a search on this thread for 'water' :laugh:

Now I guess I don't really know why you suggested an edit in the first place. Perhaps it is about the amount of water vapor in what would be called in smoking, mainstream smoke vs. second hand smoke. The second hand vapor is mostly water vapor from the displacement that takes place in the lungs, although there may be water vapor in the main stream vapor, it isn't as great as the second hand vapor. Really depends upon what base one is using and which diluent and whether that was diluted with deionized water or not or how much.
 

Oliver

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There are other threads (in last few days) that reference lengthy comments submitted to FDA. I believe all of those have had some criticism, if not debate, shared about what they said. Not this one. Why is that????
......

The free pass thing is amazing to me. The debate over this being one really really really really long comment and spinning that as completely passable just adds to my amazement while also kinda sorta humors me.

If you'd started by saying: let's look critically at some of the issues and then gotten into them, we'd probably be having an interesting conversation by now. But you didn't, you made it a point about Bill getting a "free pass".

Bill has explained what he did - he synthisized several year's of consistent and dedicated collecting of vaping-related information into a single document to go on the record as comment on the deeming proposals. He then posted it here for all to look at and criticise, if they so wish.

To me, this is praiseworthy. I'm not giving Bill a free pass - I assume that there are areas in which I will disagree with him, and I encourage anyone who wishes to to criticize constructively.
 

Jman8

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If you'd started by saying: let's look critically at some of the issues and then gotten into them, we'd probably be having an interesting conversation by now. But you didn't, you made it a point about Bill getting a "free pass". .

I beg to differ. The only time I've seen an interesting discussion regarding what Bill has purported on ECF, it came from one who has moved on. All other posts are in praise ... of an anti-smoking zealot.

Show me this (other) thread on ECF where an interesting discussion ensued about the many things that Mr. G. had to share with us here on ECF. In the meantime, I'll offer up what I think is another fair criticism of what was conveyed to FDA, just to see if it is met with discussion or defensiveness.
 

bigdancehawk

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I'm familiar with MS Word and almost any 'edit' dropdown has 'find'. I use it all the time - that has nothing to do with my comment and like Bill said for him, it's already past the time. And I knew it was there from reading and simply did a search on this thread for 'water' :laugh:

Now I guess I don't really know why you suggested an edit in the first place. Perhaps it is about the amount of water vapor in what would be called in smoking, mainstream smoke vs. second hand smoke. The second hand vapor is mostly water vapor from the displacement that takes place in the lungs, although there may be water vapor in the main stream vapor, it isn't as great as the second hand vapor. Really depends upon what base one is using and which diluent and whether that was diluted with deionized water or not or how much.

It has nothing to do with smoke or second hand vapor. Bill's statement about "water vapor" did not address either. Bill's statement was about harm to users: "Although electronic cigarettes (e-cigarettes) are not currently subject to Section 911’s MRTP provisions, approximately one million smokers have quit smoking or sharply reduced their cigarette consumption by switching to or substituting smokefree e-cigarettes. To date, there is no evidence that e-cigarette usage has harmed anyone, which is logical since the products emit a tiny amount of vaporized nicotine (similar to nicotine inhalers that are marketed as smoking cessation aids) and water vapor."

Given the context, this is saying, in effect, that e-cigarettes have not harmed anyone because they emit only nicotine and water vapor.
 

Jman8

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General criticisms:
1 - Whole piece (all 14 parts) are very disorganized. Hard to understand the story being told, even while I find around 80% of it be data that is worthy of consideration.
2 - Piece isn't even written to FDA regarding regulations, as noted in post #18 of this thread. It is one big diatribe that is partially meant to convey the other side of eCig data (which FDA and cohorts seem to ignore) and partially about conveying the merits of smokeless tobacco as reasonable policy. FDA comments portal mostly just serves as a platform for which to share this diatribe.

More specific criticisms:
1 - The conclusion (found in part 14) says, "The scientific and empirical evidence has consistently found that e-cigs (and smokleless tobacco) provide significant health benefits for smokers and for public health, with negligible risks for users, no risks for nonusers." Because of my bias, I don't have strong disagreement with what this is saying, but do have some reasonable concern with how it is being conveyed. Because a story isn't being told well in the 14 parts, it is challenging to decipher where these "significant health benefits" have been cited. Based on word search of "benefits," most of it is based on potential and thus scientific opinion, not evidence. IMO, this is partially why I would find it easy to dismiss this commentary on whole as it presents an onslaught of data and then attempts to establish a conclusion where the dots have not been connected as well as they could have, or arguably not at all, depending on one's bias going in. Like if FDA had 50,000 words regarding "problems with tobacco use" and then concluded with "scientific evidence consistently shows significant hazards of eCigs" without making that connection. Those who want to believe eCigs have hazards will praise the 50,000 words that came before it as 'hard work' and 'great effort.' Those who understand reasoning will criticize the piece for not making that connection.

2 - Conclusion also says, "The evidence also consistently confirms that the FDA’s proposed Deeming Regulation would protect cigarette markets, threaten the lives of millions of vapers and 45 million smokers, and give the e-cig industry to Big Tobacco companies by banning >99% of all e-cig products, including all of the most effective e-cig products for smoking cessation." And again, I am 80% in harmony with this type of propaganda, even while I think it is open to fair criticism. I've routinely questioned the greater than 99% claim and have already challenged Bill on this before plus challenged those who claim vaping products in neighborhood of 100K items or less. Reality is it is millions, given flavor combinations. I'm not sure why that doesn't register with those who claim to have knowledge on these matters but even in these comments from Bill it is presented as thousands. But more to the point, I am not seeing the way around this hyperbolic claim of "giving eCig industry to Big Tobacco companies." The solution offered up, as noted in the following paragraph is for FDA to not issue final rule and to apologize to all vapers. Yeah, that's going to work. That's being practical, reasonable. Would be like me expecting (or rather demanding) apology from Bill based on my spin of what he has written. Anyone reading this want to let me know when I should expect that apology? As I'm thinking it will never happen, then getting back to the point, when Bill had prime opportunity and much motivation to comment to FDA, his comment ended up being part of that which will plausibly hand eCig industry over to big tobacco companies while offering nothing practical to change that course.
 

Bill Godshall

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Please note that several of the excerpts from my comments that others have posted on this thread (about e-cig safety) were quoted excerpts from testimony I presented and/or submitted to FDA back in 2010 and 2011.

I'm not going to respond to recent comments posted on this thread by Jman (criticizing me and the comments I submitted to FDA) because they are irrational and/or ad hominem.
 

Kent C

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It has nothing to do with smoke or second hand vapor. Bill's statement about "water vapor" did not address either. Bill's statement was about harm to users: "Although electronic cigarettes (e-cigarettes) are not currently subject to Section 911’s MRTP provisions, approximately one million smokers have quit smoking or sharply reduced their cigarette consumption by switching to or substituting smokefree e-cigarettes. To date, there is no evidence that e-cigarette usage has harmed anyone, which is logical since the products emit a tiny amount of vaporized nicotine (similar to nicotine inhalers that are marketed as smoking cessation aids) and water vapor."

Given the context, this is saying, in effect, that e-cigarettes have not harmed anyone because they emit only nicotine and water vapor.

Hmmm. Ok. My guess his 'is logical' is because there's no products of tobacco combustion vs. nic and water vapor. Or again, I'm missing your point entirely.... :) Perhaps you think adding 'water vapor' is redundant??
 

bigdancehawk

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Hmmm. Ok. My guess his 'is logical' is because there's no products of tobacco combustion vs. nic and water vapor. Or again, I'm missing your point entirely.... :) Perhaps you think adding 'water vapor' is redundant??

Perhaps you are missing my point. I don't know how to explain it more clearly. It's no big deal and now I'm bored with it.
 

Kent C

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Please note that several of the excerpts from my comments that others have posted on this thread (about e-cig safety) were quoted excerpts from testimony I presented and/or submitted to FDA back in 2010 and 2011.

I'm not going to respond to recent comments posted on this thread by Jman (criticizing me and the comments I submitted to FDA) because they are irrational and/or ad hominem.

And his very first reply was an attempt to derail the thread. When that didn't work he had the quote himself to bring it back up. :facepalm: We all should be familiar with his views by now and, as far as I can see, there's nothing new. I agree with him on certain points regarding dual use, but only from the view that people should have that choice, not that it's a healthy one, but disagree with him with regards to your full 'comment'.

For me it was a nice chronological history of the lies the FDA has made from the start with regard to ecigarettes. And fully understand (my own comments had a similar 'intent') when you say that the FDA has ignored your comments.... so "Therefore, the intended audience for my FDA comments opposing the Deeming Regulation were e-cig company attorneys, Judge Richard Leon and the DC Court of Appeals".
 
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Jman8

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And his very first reply was an attempt to derail the thread.

My first post was attempt to point out the gushing by ECF'ers. Like how liberal media reacts to Obama, and can't bring themselves to offer up any criticism. Where's your integrity?

I'll make this my final post on this thread unless actual discussion occurs. Sorry for getting in the way while you all trip over yourselves to praise Bill.

Yet again.
 

xtwosm0kesx

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My first post was attempt to point out the gushing by ECF'ers. Like how liberal media reacts to Obama, and can't bring themselves to offer up any criticism. Where's your integrity?

I'll make this my final post on this thread unless actual discussion occurs. Sorry for getting in the way while you all trip over yourselves to praise Bill.

Yet again.

You just continue to launch baseless attacks on the people who are fighting this battle on the front-lines (Bill, Dr. F etc), and honestly i find it sickening.

If you can do it better, then maybe you should form your own smoking prevention group and properly lobby for whatever it is that you want (can't seem to figure out exactly what that is).
 

Jman8

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You just continue to launch baseless attacks on the people who are fighting this battle on the front-lines (Bill, Dr. F etc), and honestly i find it sickening.

My criticisms are cited on this thread. Please be specific with what you see as baseless before you lodge the 'sickening' claim.
 

skoony

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i have read Bills,Innokins and,Lorillards submitted comments in full.

they are all very lengthy and comprehensive in scope. they all have good things going for them.

the amazing thing is the forms and styles used in the presentations of these comments.
three comments,three different styles and formats. all still being very fine efforts.
if the length of the comments i mentioned is juxtaposed against all the concerns trying to be addressed and,
compared to the many ways each particular point can be viewed by all parties concerned,there are going to be disagreements as to
how one might have interpreted any one point,one way or another.(hows that for a sentence?)
however all together they represent a powerful statement to the FDA.

i thank all three for a very fine effort.

regards
mike
 

Katya

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Frankly, I'd like to see Smokey or Roly just delete all other posts and leave Bill's comments and the links to the doc and the one comment about it's addressed to the courts, and make it a 'sticky'.

+1. Let's clean up the thread and make it a sticky for future reference.
 
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