Well like they said don't back it and let all these other vapers fend for themselves when they regulate it as a drug and ban it. That is your right.Something else to consider on costs....and I know cost doesn't mean anything to some who are just looking at the health issue...this would place e-cigs in direct competition with analogs. When that happens, big tobacco will go to court....actually they will run...and claim that e-cigs have an unfair advantage in the market if they don't get the same sin taxes as cigarettes. And you know what....they would be absolutely right.
So even if the government wanted to give e-smokers a break on costs (yeah like that would really happen)...they could not legally do so. They cannot pick and choose which companies get a tax and which don't...when they are competing in the same marketplace. It is called capitalism.
No matter how you slice it....vaping will be just as expensive as smoking. If you got into vaping for health reasons, you don't care. If you got in for tax reasons....you are screwed.
Comments Please on AAPHP Petitions to FDA
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maxx, it is high time for you to prove this instead of just saying it. Give us a link to legislation which enables such taxation and shows the rate at which the tax would be applied. For instance, here's a link to the Internal Revenue Code which currently governs tobacco products: United States Code: Browse Titles Page It is clear that there isn't a provision in that Code which enables taxation of e-cigs. So show us where there is such a provision.
Also, you haven't answered my question in post #181 yet:
Do you not have an answer? If you don't then all of your other arguments have no foundation.
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The FDA can't regulate them as tobacco products under existing laws because they don't contain tobacco. They've already stated this.
But a judge has already said that they can. And even without the judge's say-so, the FDA is perfectly able to say that e-cigs do contain tobacco because they contain nicotine derived from tobacco.
The statement that the FDA can't regulate them because they've said they can't regulate them is a circular argument. If they want to make the opposite statement they can also do that. It is THEIR CHOICE as to which way to make the statement. So again I ask, why didn't they make the other choice if that's what you think they want to do?
The FDA was given the authority to regulate tobacco products last year, but that authority comes with limits. The FDAs authority to regulate them as drug devices comes with no such limits.
You are wasting my time Mister. You posted a link to the code from 2007.
Did you even read it? I am done doing your work for you. Look for the recent tobacco legislation and look for the term "tobacco products". I am done holding your hand through this.As for 181....Oh, pardon me for not dropping everything to answer you. I'll keep it simple. The FDA is supposed to be watching out for American health despite the truth of it. Ya think they just might want to at least appear to be doing their jobs?
You think that quoting a wiki's examples of what excise taxes may be used for constitutes doing some work for us? Link to some applicable legislation if you can prove your point.
Maxx, you are at this point implying that you are the resident expert on exactly how sin taxes work, and are also implying that calling electronic cigarettes a tobacco product automatically makes them subject to such taxation.
I believe you have an obligation to prove this, or simply state that this is all nothing more than your assumptions, because otherwise you do an injustice to all who read this thread.
It is my understanding that all tobacco products are taxed differently, supposedly to an extent which is based on their relative potential for harm. I am not claiming to be an expert, and if I am in some way misunderstanding I would like to know it.
I have been searching for the past few days for something that explains the whole thing, but I am not really getting very far very fast, and if you have something that can help us to understand you really ought to share that.
I believe you have an obligation to prove this, or simply state that this is all nothing more than your assumptions, because otherwise you do an injustice to all who read this thread.
It is my understanding that all tobacco products are taxed differently, supposedly to an extent which is based on their relative potential for harm. I am not claiming to be an expert, and if I am in some way misunderstanding I would like to know it.
I have been searching for the past few days for something that explains the whole thing, but I am not really getting very far very fast, and if you have something that can help us to understand you really ought to share that.
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And I've put out a call to someone who is somewhat of an expert on these topics, and asked him to post in this thread in response to some of the claims that are being made here. Hopefully he will post here and shed more light on these matters.
Guess nobody paid attention to the link I posted. It goes directly to the site that is responsible for collecting such taxes. TTBGov Tobacco FAQs is what shows the definition of tobacco products, which I assume, will be amended if ecigs are added to the same category....then they can go on ahead and collect on them....
Well...this is just geting silly now. Bill Godshall thinks I am an FDA agent, here to derail the petition. DC2 thinks I am doing an injustice to everyone reading the thread. Kristen thinks people like me are selfish vapers. And Mister? Well....who cares....I mean really....
As far as the petiton goes....they're your cards, you play em'.....
Great chatting with you all....
As far as the petiton goes....they're your cards, you play em'.....
Great chatting with you all....
If you get a responce please ask my question which is if they do eventually get taxed at the tobacco rate are retailiers responcible for taxes owed on previous sales.
My guess is if that were to be the case we would lose 95% of our suppliers to bankruptcy overnight.
he's not fda i've never seen him at any of the parties.Well...this is just geting silly now. Bill Godshall thinks I am an FDA agent, here to derail the petition. DC2 thinks I am doing an injustice to everyone reading the thread. Kristen thinks people like me are selfish vapers. And Mister? Well....who cares....I mean really....
As far as the petiton goes....they're your cards, you play em'.....
Great chatting with you all....
I assume these are the current Federal Excise Taxes...
TTB Tax and Fee Rate
As you can see, each tobacco product is taxed differently, and it looks to me like the less harmful products have a very low Federal Excise Tax imposed upon them.
So even assuming there is some sort of immediate tax that can be imposed the moment they are declared tobacco products, which seems impossible to me, what is there in the numbers above that says people should be gravely concerned?
EDIT: I'm still trying to find out if there even IS a tax on snus at this time.
TTB Tax and Fee Rate
Code:
[B]Tobacco Products [/B][B]1000 units [/B][B]Pack of 20[/B]
Small Cigarettes $50.33 $1.01
Large Cigarettes $105.69 $2.11
Small Cigars $50.33 $1.01
[B]Tobacco Products [/B][B]1 lb. [/B][B]Tin or Pouch[/B]
Pipe Tobacco $2.8311 $0.1769
Chewing Tobacco $0.5033 $0.0315
Snuff $1.51 $0.0944
Roll-your-own Tobacco $24.78 $1.5488As you can see, each tobacco product is taxed differently, and it looks to me like the less harmful products have a very low Federal Excise Tax imposed upon them.
So even assuming there is some sort of immediate tax that can be imposed the moment they are declared tobacco products, which seems impossible to me, what is there in the numbers above that says people should be gravely concerned?
EDIT: I'm still trying to find out if there even IS a tax on snus at this time.
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I followed that link and I don't see anything on it which can be used to tax e-cigs.
Uh no. Never said that it did, at this point in time anyways. My point is, that the current definition of tobacco products is listed there. If this gets classified as a tobacco product, it will be added to that very same definition and be taxed as the rest of them are. Now, you can browse the rest of the site and see exactly how they will be taxed, etc. when they ARE added....
Ecigs are niot mentioned yet because they aren't classified as a tobacco product yet. But, since all the other tobacco products and their tax rates are listed there, then IF this DOES get classified as a tobacco product, expect it to be listed there as well.
Think of it as a glimpse into the future...
Thanks - I do know that just because e-cigs aren't mentioned does not mean there will be no taxes on them. I'm more concerned with my state tax which taxes 90% wholesale other tobacco products.
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Exactly, it appears likely the that Federal Excise Tax will be very low, hardly enough to worry about.
The state taxes are definitely a concern though. But I still maintain that is a battle that will be fought later, in each state, provided the decision to declare them drug devices remains blocked by the courts.
I also continue to maintain that the states, and the federal government for that matter, can tax them anyway they want to tax them, anytime they want to tax them, as much as they want to tax them, REGARDLESS OF WHAT ANYONE CALLS THEM. Of course, it will take bills to be passed in order to do so, and they will be visible to the public for debate thereby allowing us to fight them as the come.
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