Comments Please on AAPHP Petitions to FDA

[DC2]

So I know what's going to happen price wise if you want nic juice to be regulated so we can keep it. It can, and perhaps WILL, happen overnight at the drop of a hat!

There is no doubt that electronic cigarettes deserve to be taxed at a much lower rate than ANY other tobacco product. They are going to have a very hard time justifying a tax rate any higher than what snuff is taxed at, which is so low as to be pretty much inconsequential.

And even if they were to try, that is where our next battle would be.

And they can't just do it overnight, under cover of darkness. As far as I understand it, only Congress can establish and change taxes, and it requires a bill to be passed and signed. When that is taking place, we will all know it, and that is where our next battle will be focused.

 

[kristin]

Please stop with the 'if you don't support our decision to get these classified as tobacco then you're ignorant or just plain stupid' logic.

Come on. The reason tobacco is so hated is not nicotine. Tobacco is ugly because of every other aspect associated with it (e.g., first / second-hand smoke, tar, chemicals, combustion hazards, the financial burden placed on society due to associated medical costs attributed with the above mentioned, etc.. Do you really think tobacco would really have the bad rep it has now if it only had nicotine?

Is nicotine a drug? Sure; so is caffeine which is largely ignored. Is nicotine addictive? Yes; so is alcohol, which is only regulated with an age check. Can nicotine kill you in high doses? Sure. You can also die from drinking too much water too quickly. Yes, you can OD from H²O (hyponatremia), so let's ban/tax water.

What does all this governmental interference really stem from? Do you think there is a man sitting behind a desk whom (without any outside pressure or self-motivated financial agenda) genuinely cares if you want to mildly and safely self-medicate yourself with an unremarkable stimulant?

It's just about money. They want to keep taking it from you and a lot of you are not only suggesting that we pay them, but we should beg them to take the money from us. E-cigs should not be lumped in with standard tobacco. Not because they don't have a relationship with them due to nicotine (which they do), but because tobacco has a bad reputation for many aspects that have nothing to do with nicotine.

I almost have to wonder if this petition was started by an FDA mole; if for no other reason than it's base logic sounds like typical governmental bureaucratic double-speak. "Huh? The government is going to tax us for something that has nothing to do with the reason the tax was put in place? Umm.. ..okay!"

Wait! I'm having a vision.. ..it's of people trapped on the top floors of a building on fire. They sense impending doom. They jump to their deaths to avoid the flames even though the flames won't reach them for hours. Brilliant!

NOTE: If you haven't made the connection yet, my forum name is "Unperson" (1984). That should be enough to kick-start those of you that are about to flame me for being a government conspiracy nut.

"Unperson" - An unperson is a person who has been "vaporized"; who has been not only killed by the state, but effectively erased from existence. Such a person would be written out of existing books, photographs, and articles so that no trace of their existence could be found in the historical record. The idea is that such a person would, according to the principles of doublethink, be forgotten completely (for it would be impossible to provide evidence of their existence), even by close friends and family members. Mentioning his or her name, or even speaking of their past existence, is thoughtcrime; the concept that the person may have existed at one time and has disappeared cannot be expressed in Newspeak. Compare to the Stalinist practice of erasing people from photographs after their execution. [Source]

If it's not categorized as a tobacco product, it will be a drug delivery device.

It will be banned by the FDA until a big pharmaceutical company buys the rights to an ecig company, runs the clinical tests and then puts it on the market under strict FDA guidlines. Most likely a Nicotrol standard of 10mg per cart, non-refillable, at a price of $1-$2 per cart. Buying replacement attys and liquids will NOT be an option. You buy a whole kit at $180 or nothing. One, maybe two companies will sell them, so there will be a monopoly, which will skyrocket the costs well beyond the price of a pack of cigarettes. They will never be considered as a "reduced harm product" and there will never be a chance to change that.

I assume that is acceptable to you?

 

[bobtow]

To unperson. I hate to burst your bubble about nicotine not being the hate issue. Most of the anti-smoking lobbies use nicotine as their primery target. They do not bother to mention the obvious facts that nicotiner is the least of the toxins in cigarette smoke. Mention nicotine to a non-smoker and you will get the same response if you had mentioned smoke and carbonmonoxide.

 

[kristin]

To unperson. I hate to burst your bubble about nicotine not being the hate issue. Most of the anti-smoking lobbies use nicotine as their primery target. They do not bother to mention the obvious facts that nicotiner is the least of the toxins in cigarette smoke. Mention nicotine to a non-smoker and you will get the same response if you had mentioned smoke and carbonmonoxide.

True bob.

The smoking antis have evolved into nicotine antis. They are convinced that anything with nicotine is a "gateway" for kids to start smoking.

 

[5cardstud]

True bob.

The smoking antis have evolved into nicotine antis. They are convinced that anything with nicotine is a "gateway" for kids to start smoking.

Naw, They're just a bunch of fools that think their way is the only way. If they were successful in barring nicotine from the planet they would find somewhere else to poke their little noses in. But I agree what everybody doesn't seem to grasp for some reason is that it's either going to be a drug and banned or a tabacco product and used. Thats pretty simple really. We were only given 2 choices.

 

[bobtow]

Kristen Yes I have written letters to most of them asking for resesarch on their arguments against ecigs. They only research for bachup to their rants against ecigs. They seem to have lost track of what the were after in the first place. Now everything with nicotine that is not regulated by the FDA is pure poison. They are too focussed on eliminating nicotine, to bother researching nicotine's benifits. It is sad, that the Lung Assns do not want to have anything to do with ecigs. I get the feeling, that, if the FDA classifies it as a tobacco product, then we get ecigs classified as a less harmful product, the Lung Assns would put it on their list along with other nrts.

 

[Mr_Phil]

Besides, it's not the FDA you need to worry about. It's "Action on Smoking and Health" (A.S.H.) that has us all in a sniper scope. They're the ones attacking all our retail brethren and sending all the threatening letters to Amazon, E-Bay/Paypal, individual site providers, and the like.

Yes, the FDA are puppets for big business, but A.S.H. are the real nico-nazis.

The PETA of the smoking world? I met one of them once. I told em that PETA stood for People Eating Tasty Animals. In all seriousness I've noticed the effect of this group on online merchants. I use Paypal exclusivily for online purchases and my options are thinning fast. Look at my sig. I've only been doing this a short time. Looks like a decent example of a fight that's worth getting into for a bored civil libertarian. Fix bayonets and sound the charge.

Well, not exactly. That table brings up bad memories on RYO tobacco for me. The current sin tax you see now shows the aftermath attack that was made on them.

The sin tax for RYO right before that (if I recall correctly) was only $1.47 per pound. And at that time I was able to get Farm Fresh RYO tobacco without the other 4,000 chemicals added to them. I could get one whole pound for $27.00 and make 450 cigarettes. I would get 2 to 4 bags at a time for that price! I was in HOG HEAVEN and having a blast making my own. All of my filter tubes were FREE!

I never saw RYO in this light before. Excellent perspective and a great reason on it's own to fight.

SNIP

If nic juice becomes an "official" tobacco product, I'm pretty sure it's going to get the same treatment as RYO, or at least similar. BUT, it IS better to go with tobacco than drugs. - Yes, I said that. Don't pass out. LOL.

I'm going to have to research making my own gear to include the juice. Dang, I am a lazy guy by nature. And this sounds like a bit of work.

I'm not joking this time.
Me neither

Happy now?... Or do I have to lick it too?

Dude you owe me a keyboard. I spit coffee when I read this.

 

[Unperson]

If it's not categorized as a tobacco product, it will be a drug delivery device.

It will be banned by the FDA until a big pharmaceutical company buys the rights to an ecig company, runs the clinical tests and then puts it on the market under strict FDA guidlines. Most likely a Nicotrol standard of 10mg per cart, non-refillable, at a price of $1-$2 per cart. Buying replacement attys and liquids will NOT be an option. You buy a whole kit at $180 or nothing. One, maybe two companies will sell them, so there will be a monopoly, which will skyrocket the costs well beyond the price of a pack of cigarettes. They will never be considered as a "reduced harm product" and there will never be a chance to change that.

I assume that is acceptable to you?

Do I doubt the fate of e-cigs will swing one way or the other? Nope. I think they will be classified as a tobacco product simply because the government will make more money if the fence swings that way; as a pharmaceutical, private industry profits so "no soup for joo, Uncle Sam".

In an ideal world, e-cigs should get their own category, but eh? Where does that leave my original points? Fine, I'll concede this may end up with a "tobacco product" classification. I'm not worried about the drug companies winning because they're competition is the government. MY point is..

..I'm not asking the government to do something I don't agree with because they have put me between a rock and a hard place and I need to scramble for a lesser of two evils remedy.

I don't care if that's the reality of the way the government works. I don't care if the world will keep turning on it's lopsided axis regardless of my points that it shouldn't be that way. It doesn't mean I have to be a mindless rat that will follow the cheese through a linear maze that will place me right at the ending they wanted me at in the first place.

We live in a world where people will try to get theirs, by taking it from you. That's all that's happening here. One side of this issue will win; but I'm not going to give them their victory when I don't agree with either side.

Bottom line is that I can't endorse either side when the solution each offers is one I don't agree with. Make a petition that I agree with and I'll sign it. Otherwise, it's hypocrisy.

 

[miss MiA]

To unperson. I hate to burst your bubble about nicotine not being the hate issue. Most of the anti-smoking lobbies use nicotine as their primery target. They do not bother to mention the obvious facts that nicotiner is the least of the toxins in cigarette smoke. Mention nicotine to a non-smoker and you will get the same response if you had mentioned smoke and carbonmonoxide.

True bob.

The smoking antis have evolved into nicotine antis. They are convinced that anything with nicotine is a "gateway" for kids to start smoking.

...and how about THIS kind of trend -- recent statement from ASH (US):

"...As many studies have found, exposure to even small amounts of drifting tobacco smoke can trigger a heart attack in nonsmokers in as little as 30 minutes. Since a major cause of the heart attacks is nicotine, the main component of the vapor exhaled by e-cig users, those in the vicinity of e-smokers appear to be at similar risk."

The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary: Action on Smoking and Health Claims that "Secondhand" Electronic Cigarette Vapor Causes Heart Attacks in Bystanders (Not going to link directly to ASH.)

So no --maddeningly, infuriatingly, but as usual, logical arguments have exactly nothing to do with anything here. And yes, nicotine is absolutely being made the new demon, that for various reasons is just as bad as the original one. All international anti trends reflect that. Australia has banned ecigs because "nicotine is a poison." The UK is now trying to get it under strict lock and key as a medicine. On and on and on.

'Science' isn't missing the opportunity to demonize nic either:

"...research, published in the international online science journal PLoS ONE, shows that levels of nicotine found in lozenges and chewing gums could increase the risk of mouth cancer."

Medical Research Council.-.News.-.Research throws concern over nicotine products

So make no mistake here people -- arguments straight from the hip, from nothing but emotion and one's own personal sense of right, wrong, logic and justice -- do exactly no good (and potentially much harm). Especially in a matter that is down to the dire eleventh hour, as this one is (including: during the formal trial that hasn't even begun yet, and could itself drag on for years, will ecigs be classified/treated as tobacco products, or as drug devices subject to immediate industry-wide ban, as the FDA had already decided a year ago and was fully prepared to proceed on).

If anyone objecting here was unfamiliar with even this one terrifying and often illogical trend towards the linking and demonizing of nicotine itself, please consider that you should spend some time becoming fully informed on actual facts and actual developments (IF you are going to deign to speak on these matters)... even if you feel sure you'll come out of it feeling the same as you do now; even if you DO.

Please also consider that if you had already spent the many months and in some cases years intensively following all related political and legal trends and cases, such as people like Bill and many casaa.org members have (as well as taking it upon themselves to actually help get something DONE to ensure our continued access, rather than just emoting and theorizing), you may very well feel differently by now about what the truly best and shrewdest bets and plans/orders of attack are. I am certain that initially, when reacting from nothing but pure emotion and logical idealism, many of them felt the same as the objectors here do now. Then after actually informing themselves and facing crucial realities, they began forming plans of action that could actually GET somewhere. And it was NOT giving in or giving up -- it was learning how to work the system.

 

[zelda]

I understand how much work has gone into this. And yes it is a way of working the system.

But I also understand the objections here. I'm not acting from emotion or idealism. I simply can't sign a petition that is going to make e-cigarettes an e-liquid so expensive I can't afford to use them. And that is exactly what will happen.

 

[Unperson]

...rather than just emoting and theorizing), you may very well feel differently by now about what the truly best and shrewdest bets and plans/orders of attack are. I am certain that initially, when reacting from nothing but pure emotion and logical idealism, many of them felt the same as the objectors here do now. Then after actually informing themselves and facing crucial realities, they began forming plans of action that could actually GET somewhere. And it was NOT giving in or giving up -- it was learning how to work the system.

So if we differ from the individuals behind this petition, we're:
1. Just emoting and theorizing
2. Ignorant and/or uneducated
3. Failing to just go with the flow even if we don't like it

Hey, umm, when did "emotion" and "logical idealism" become disposable or unnecessary?

"NOT giving in or giving up"... Really? The reason people work the system is because they can't get what they really want so they take what is fed them and tell themselves, WE WON!. By your own words, they are painting us into a corner with two options we don't want. How does picking one of them count as a win?

 

[ChipCurtis]

The reason people work the system is because they can't get what they really want so they take what is fed them and tell themselves, WE WON!. By your own words, they are painting us into a corner with two options we don't want. How does picking one of them count as a win?

If e-cigs get banned, you will be working a different system, but a system nonetheless. It's called the black market system. What it really comes down to is which group of thugs you want to support: the drug dealers or the government and their private lobbies.

 

[Oliver]

So if we differ from the individuals behind this petition, we're:
1. Just emoting and theorizing
2. Ignorant and/or uneducated
3. Failing to just go with the flow even if we don't like it

Hey, umm, when did "emotion" and "logical idealism" become disposable or unnecessary?

"NOT giving in or giving up"... Really? The reason people work the system is because they can't get what they really want so they take what is fed them and tell themselves, WE WON!. By your own words, they are painting us into a corner with two options we don't want. How does picking one of them count as a win?

I'd say that logical idealism and emotion have brought us to the place we're at right now: many thousands of e-smokers using a product that is largely untested, in the faith that this is better for them than smoking cigarettes.

And it's this mass of usership that means we can't be swept under the table as, I'm sure, BP BT and govt agencies would like to do. So, no, I don't consider "emotion" and "logical idealism" to be disposable or unnecessary. Not in the slightest.

But we are where we are. The FDA is going to take control of this one way or another. They want to regulate it as a drug and that is the death knell for the potential of e-cigs to cause massive reductions in smoking related disease. Yes, we as individual consumers will be able to import our supplies from China, but all the other potential users will likely never even have the opportunity to try e-cigs.

Demanding that the FDA changes its own position gives away nothing in this fight. Nothing at all. That's what I don't understand in all this opposition to signing the petition. There can only be an upside.

 

[Mister]

I simply can't sign a petition that is going to make e-cigarettes an e-liquid so expensive I can't afford to use them. And that is exactly what will happen.

Can you afford to start smoking again?

If not, are you able to quit smoking and vaping completely?

Those are the two choices you will have if this petition does not succeed. (Actually, there will be a third but it may become expensive itself, a black market supplying illegal vaping products of unknown quality.)

If it does succeed, it is highly likely that e-cigs will remain cheaper than cigarettes. Once classified as a tobacco product, it will be almost impossible to pass legislation which makes them more expensive than cigarettes.

 

[kristin]

I simply can't sign a petition that is going to make e-cigarettes an e-liquid so expensive I can't afford to use them. And that is exactly what will happen.

Did you not see my price comparison? If they become drug devices, they will be THREE TIMES the cost vs being a tobacco product.

If you don't want ecigs to be too expensive, then you WANT to sign this petition.

 

[kristin]

If e-cigs get banned, you will be working a different system, but a system nonetheless. It's called the black market system. What it really comes down to is which group of thugs you want to support: the drug dealers or the government and their private lobbies.

It will be in the government's hands either way. It's down to a matter of HOW it will be regulated - as a drug or as a tobacco product.

If it's regulated as a drug, it'll go to the black market, but we will have no chance for the ecig advocacy groups to lobby how it's regulated. If it's a tobacco product, WE can be lobbiests on our behalf.

 

[Mister]

"NOT giving in or giving up"... Really? The reason people work the system is because they can't get what they really want so they take what is fed them and tell themselves, WE WON!

That's not true.

If your ideals are worthy of being called ideals then I'm sure they strive for something better than what you know in your heart can actually be accomplished in the real world in your lifetime.

And if that is true (it is for me and I think it is for you) then there are basically two ways to act.

1) Take steps which move your world closer to your ideals. Take the biggest ones available to you, but take them. And yes, this means using the "C" word, compromise.

2) Do nothing which falls short of meeting your ideals. "Some people never have anything except ideals." - E.W. Howe

 

[(So) Jersey Girl]

It will be in the government's hands either way. It's down to a matter of HOW it will be regulated - as a drug or as a tobacco product.

If it's regulated as a drug, it'll go to the black market, but we will have no chance for the ecig advocacy groups to lobby how it's regulated. If it's a tobacco product, WE can be lobbiests on our behalf.

Amen!

What keeps getting overlooked in this discussion is that it is already in the government's hands and has been from the moment the FDA got involved and declared e-cigs to be drug delivery devices. The courts will eventually make the final decision as to the HOW unless, of course, the FDA agrees to change their classification to Tobacco Product (which is the purpose behind this petition.) I personally don't see how they belong to either category, but am willing to agree to the lesser of two evils in this case. My life depends on it.

 

[GregH]

I've read through this entire thread, and I simply don't get it.

Like it or not, there are only two possible outcomes: tobacco product or drug delivery device. I know a lot of people want a third option. But that is just simply not going to happen. We, as a group, do not have the numbers, the finances, or the clout to be in a position to make demands.

You know what would be ideal? For the government to leave us the heck alone and let us continue to buy our stuff tax free with no regulations whatsoever. Well guess what? It's not going to happen. Period. Maybe it could happen in someone's fantasy world filled with vapor clouds of rainbows and unicorns. But face reality.

We have two choices here:

1: Do nothing but horde our stockpiles and watch our precious PVs be classified as drugs. Most of our supply lines will be gone immediately. It will be years before an 'approved' electronic cigarette, complete with a prescription requirement and hefty price tag, is available. But, on the bright side, you'll have a few years to save your money so you can afford it when it does finally come out. Anyone had to fill a prescription lately? I have. The current taxes on cigarettes are nothing compared to the cost of prescription drugs. For example, my prescription allergy nasal spray is $90 for generic/$257 for name brand.

2: Fight to get them classified as tobacco products -- or hope that the courts do it for us -- and prevent the FDA from banning them completely.

Do I absolutely love either of these choices? No. Do I accept reality and fight for the only one of those options that won't have immediate devastating consequences? Absolutely.

 

[zelda]

I've read every post here. I wish the tone of this thread had been a little more respectful of opposing views.

I hope this works out. I have grave doubts though. It seems a no win- no win situation no matter what is decided. I just hope this doesn't come back to haunt us.