Comments Please on AAPHP Petitions to FDA

[Mister]

As I mentioned earlier. The goals of the FDA and this petition are the same and inevitable.

A serious question for you maxx:

Since you think that the FDA's goal is to regulate e-cigs as tobacco products, why do you think they haven't just done that already instead of maintaining their stance that they will regulate them as drug delivery devices? They wouldn't need anyone's permission to do this, so why haven't they?

 

[THeGAMe]

Ok. 10% is low. Infact, I would guess that the people that use it for nic are on the lower side. Just like those that use a hooka for herbs and spices, just because it looks like a cigarette, doesnt mean its a cigarette. Hence the huge mistake in even refering vapes as ecigs. Even those that are against it being classified as such still use the term, and hurt the cause.

That being said, there are curently larger vaps on the market that are about the size of a fog mechine that do the same thing vapes do for smell and taste.

The only reason they are going after vapes is due to the fact that they can easily be associated with a cigarette. Its not the fact that they will be taxed, its the fact they will over tax it.

Bottom line here is that soon I will use this with zero nic and I dont want it classified as anything remotely similar to a cig. I can use a coke can as a pot pipe, that doesnt make a coke can drug paraphernalia

 

[kristin]

The goals of the FDA and this petition are the same and inevitable.

The goals of this petition and the FDA are exactly OPPOSITE. Where do you get that they are the same??

The FDA has already decided ecigs are drug delivery devices. They want them all pulled from the market and each and every seller must provide clinical testing to prove that they are safe and effective as smoking cessation devices. By doing this, ecigs will be declared illegal for years, imports will continue to be siezed, the only resource will be stockpiles, DIY or black market, prices will soar and people will be at risk - both bad devices/liquid and returning to analogs.

Once one or two companies get FDA approval, most likely Big Pharma, ecig prices will skyrocket (more than a tobacco tax would) and they will be regulated down to useless levels of nicotine.

NO ONE WILL BE ABLE TO CHANGE/FIGHT THIS.

The authors of this petition do NOT want this. By classifying ecigs as tobacco (the only option currently available), ecigs will remain available in their current form until regulation is proposed. During that period, it'll give ecig advocacy groups time to propose reasonable safety regulations, argue for flavors and liquid strengths, argue that they can't be sin taxed the same as cigarettes and lobby for moving ecigs into their own category.

If we don't get ecigs classified as tobacco products FOR NOW, all possibility of keeping ecigs in the form we have them now will be taken away. Putting them into that category leaves us potential for manuvering them into a third category later, with flavors and affordability.

None of us wants ecigs to be permenantly classified as tobacco products. But if we don't do it for now, they will be automatically made into drug devices and then everything we know and love about ecigs will be lost. The war will be over.

This is a battle to win the overall war. This is giving up one hill, so we can turn it around later to win the war - with all of it's spoils. It's a tactical manuver at this point - not a surrender at all.

 

[DC2]

The federal tax code specifically mentions cigs, tubes, ciagrs etc. But it also uses the term (repeatedly) "tobacco products"....which also happens to be the FDA term of preference. See how convenient everything is becoming?

I don't get it.

If the FDA wanted to call them tobacco products, they could just call them tobacco products tomorrow and it would be done and over with, and nobody would have any grounds to fight them about it.

 

[Firegrl]

Anyone ever browsed this site: TTBGov Tobacco

Some interesting info there about how taxes are collected, importing, exporting, and licensing for selling "tobacco products".

 

[kristin]

Whatever tax the government added to these would be a pittance compared to what the cost would be if they get classified as drug delivery devices.

If they get classified as tobacco products, we can argue that they are reduced harm, so would be exempt from the "sin tax" that affect cigarettes.

If they get classified as drug devices, we'll have no way to lobby to keep the costs down.

 

[kristin]

I don't get it.

If the FDA wanted to call them tobacco products, they could just call them tobacco products tomorrow and it would be done and over with, and nobody would have any grounds to fight them about it.

Agreed. The FDA is spending millions of our tax dollars in federal court right now, arguing with Judge Leon that they are NOT tobacco products and are drug delivery devices. The argument that the FDA wants these classified as tobacco products and we are giving them what they want holds no water at all.

 

[miss MiA]

Also, please folks, do not let the second petition get lost amongst the unrest. The one "...urging the FDA to clarify/correct inaccurate and misleading claims about electronic cigarettes (nicotine vaporizers) made at the FDA's July 22, 2009 press conference, and to truthfully inform the public of existing evidence about the products."

Regulations.gov

Relevant issues & points (see 2nd section):
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...cussion-comments-submissions.html#post1136427

Surely everyone can agree that they'd like to see that travesty corrected to the extent possible. Yes, I realize that some of the strongest objectors here may currently feel that they want nothing to do with any of it. This is directed to everyone else, including anyone who's gotten hung up on that fence atm but would indeed like to support the call for correction of the blatantly misleading release, which so tragically and effectively trashed public perception and extinguished potential. It might be all too easy to get distracted here and miss the opportunity to do even that much.

 

[DC2]

Also, please folks, do not let the second petition get lost amongst the unrest. The one "...urging the FDA to clarify/correct inaccurate and misleading claims about electronic cigarettes (nicotine vaporizers) made at the FDA's July 22, 2009 press conference, and to truthfully inform the public of existing evidence about the products."

Best post of the thread.

 

[THeGAMe]

Whatever tax the government added to these would be a pittance compared to what the cost would be if they get classified as drug delivery devices.

If they get classified as tobacco products, we can argue that they are reduced harm, so would be exempt from the "sin tax" that affect cigarettes.

If they get classified as drug devices, we'll have no way to lobby to keep the costs down.

If they get classified as a medical drug device, the Dems will reduce the cost for us with the healthcare bill.

If it is classified as a tobacco product, The Dems will tax the hell out of it, and guess what, no one will care because its bad. WA state will shortly have a 4$ tax on tobacco products, and non smokers are cheering them on to raise it higher. The "sin tax" sky will be the limit because not only is it bad for you, but you can elect not to use it and not pay the tax.

Personally, I want the vape classified as a stick of chewing gum.

I fully support the clarify petition. However, the other one is something I see as doing the same as the FDA, as well as giving up your rights. There has been enough of that already.

 

[zelda]

The taxes are only one part of the problem.
Add to that the many regulations on the sale and manufacture of tobacco products. Many of the suppliers will be out of business.

I'm think people will sign this thinking the e-cig industry will stay basically the same

 

[DC2]

I'm think people will sign this thinking the e-cig industry will stay basically the same

Good, because this is the ONLY way it CAN stay the same for now.
If this petition fails to get what it is after, all US suppliers will be out of business almost overnight.

 

[zelda]

How are many of the suppliers going to stay in business if it passes?

 

[THeGAMe]

If you take the nicotine out of the equation, what do you have?

This device can still be a great smoking cessation device without it. Let them deem the nic additive what ever they wish, and even ban it. A non nic product will still give you everything you have now, just no nic. You can still get nic from approved sources such as the patch or gum with the added benefit of a hand to mouth tool.

Im thinking about life after nicotine. Removing that one little chem from vapes still gives you the option to vape. It gives buisness a non nic/drug delivery device way to sell their product with an option to sell a FDA approved nic cart/juice.

Classifying a vape unit as a tobacco product gives you no options. The use of nic, and non nic juice should be the focal point.

 

[DC2]

How are many of the suppliers going to stay in business if it passes?

Well, I could be wrong, and if so I would like to be corrected.

But my answer is that because there are absolutely no regulations yet for how they will be regulated as tobacco products, nothing will change just yet.

But regardless, that doesn't change the fact that they WILL be out of business if they are not deemed to be tobacco products at this particular point in time.

 

[DC2]

If Im thinking about life after nicotine.

I venture to say the vast majority of us are not.
I know I have no intention of EVER giving up nicotine.

Maybe we should post a poll.

 

[THeGAMe]

Lol, DC.
I will have to disagree on the usage once again. More people vape for taste, and the hand to mouth habit than you think.

However, seeing as we are fighting a losing battle, would you rather vapes be around for no nic usage, or they get totally banned and/or regulated?

You can still add black market nic to them. Its better than the option to never be able to purchase a legal atty, batt, or cart again, or at least at a decent price..

 

[DC2]

I posted a poll.


And I would rather they stay around with zero nicotine.
But then I would have to use snus, and hope THEY stay around too.

 

[THeGAMe]

Woot!

Voting!
I love mob rule!!

 

[Mr_Phil]

My comment on the first petition in regards to classification.

I am personally opposed to classification of personal vaporizers or electronic cigarettes as drug delivery devices. I am not real happy with the idea of classification as a tobacco product either. But of the two, classification as a tobacco product infringes less on my right to do as I please free of government interference.

Make no mistake about my deepest feelings. I believe that any regulation of e-cigarettes is motivated more by the buying power of established tobacco companies than a public health concern. Frankly, if public health were the driving force then cigarettes would have been banned ages ago.

The e-cig allows me to maintain my lifestyle choice to smoke or "vape" at a reduced risk. The fact that I personally smoked my last tobacco cigarette thirty days ago is merely a welcome side effect as I had no intention of quitting.

Thank you for the opportunity to comment on this issue.