My thoughts exactly.
Not only that, but all tobacco products can only be regular and menthol, right?
I can't bear a vaping world without peanut butter cup and mocha frap!!
Comments Please on AAPHP Petitions to FDA
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My thoughts exactly.
Not only that, but all tobacco products can only be regular and menthol, right?
I can't bear a vaping world without peanut butter cup and mocha frap!!
My thoughts exactly.
Not only that, but all tobacco products can only be regular and menthol, right?
I can't bear a vaping world without peanut butter cup and mocha frap!!
That applies to cigarettes only. Cigars, little cigars, chew, snuff, etc. are all still allowed to be flavored. Not to mention that they are taxed at lower rates than cigarettes.
Taxes and flavor choice are the least of our worries.
Okay, Okay... Let's be honest and truthful here. Come on. Confession time. We know it's true. PV juice is a NEW recreational drug. It's NOT tobacco. It's the drug nicotine in it's purest refined safest form. Even though the FDA is a bunch of freaky power hungary jerks taking bribes all the time, they are partially correct. Only problem is... it's NOT an NRT either. It's a new recreational drug delivery system that has to have a new category. We don't have that category yet, so they don't know what to do with it... except maybe ban it until further notice.
I'll just have to wait and see what happens. I'll sign those petitions anyway just in case they help.
Don't worry. If a ban does happen, it won't last forever. The PV's legal status will be back sometime. It's the same thing that happened to cigarettes when they first arose. Even they got banned back in the early 1900's, but then they got reinstated after a deal was made. The government was happy, the nicotine addicts were happy, but the anti-smoking activists weren't happy. Yes, they already existed back then too. It's nothing new.
Here's a history time line of tobacco products. You might think it's interesting.
Meanwhile, I'm going to buy all the supplies I can.
Cheerio.
I'll just have to wait and see what happens. I'll sign those petitions anyway just in case they help.
Don't worry. If a ban does happen, it won't last forever. The PV's legal status will be back sometime. It's the same thing that happened to cigarettes when they first arose. Even they got banned back in the early 1900's, but then they got reinstated after a deal was made. The government was happy, the nicotine addicts were happy, but the anti-smoking activists weren't happy. Yes, they already existed back then too. It's nothing new.
Here's a history time line of tobacco products. You might think it's interesting.
Meanwhile, I'm going to buy all the supplies I can.
Cheerio.
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No matter how much it is mentioned that drug-delivery status would make the PV astronomically more expensive and harder to obtain, people just keep repeating the above statement like a broken record on here. Please realize that a tax on tobacco product will be far lower than what pharmaceutical compaines will charge for the PV. And you will also need a prescription. C'mon people, it's like the first response that comes in your mind (taxes), I know that, but you need to see the bigger picture before spouting this same "logic" over and over.
As Dr. Tom Eissenberg, the guy who did a study (flawed as it was) on e-cigs has said, "A judge will decide this."
We can talk logic, sensibility, and arcane reasoning until the chickens come home to roost. But that's not what always prevails in a courtroom. A deal will be struck that circumvents a lot of common-sense logic. Hopefully it will be a deal that keeps e-cigs available and circumvents the "logic" (reasonable though it may be) that wants to ban it. That's all I'm asking for. I know that "what is right" and "what is legal" are and have never been one and the same thing in this world.
Gawd people! come-on! jump on board! After all it's just a little tiny lie, and it won't really hurt anyone. Not counting the vendor that busted his ... to come up with that flavor that made you say you will never touch tobacco again, or the millions of smokers that won't try vaping because there is no price or flavor advantage to do so.
This decision was come up with by our friends, y'know the same ones that were instrumental in getting wild cherry flavor tobacco out of the hands of old people and insured menthol could stay on the market. We trust those decision makers right? Our friends are always right and make the best decisions for us dont they?
They saved the VFW halls and front porches of our grandparents from the evil peach flavors while ensuring popular music stars could continue to have pit bulls, bikinis, and newports on the covers of their albums so what's not to question about their ability to make decisions that affect all of us?
If a lie is for the greater good to ensure that our supply of 555 made up by the tanker load overseas is safe while removing from the market liquids made by the folks that live in your area and would have just wasted the money made on crap like food and their mortgage then hey who cares right? We still get 555, so its a win right?
Gosh, sacrificing all our beliefs to ensure our comfort level sure is easy isn't it?
This decision was come up with by our friends, y'know the same ones that were instrumental in getting wild cherry flavor tobacco out of the hands of old people and insured menthol could stay on the market. We trust those decision makers right? Our friends are always right and make the best decisions for us dont they?
They saved the VFW halls and front porches of our grandparents from the evil peach flavors while ensuring popular music stars could continue to have pit bulls, bikinis, and newports on the covers of their albums so what's not to question about their ability to make decisions that affect all of us?
If a lie is for the greater good to ensure that our supply of 555 made up by the tanker load overseas is safe while removing from the market liquids made by the folks that live in your area and would have just wasted the money made on crap like food and their mortgage then hey who cares right? We still get 555, so its a win right?
Gosh, sacrificing all our beliefs to ensure our comfort level sure is easy isn't it?
"E-cig" / "PV" / "NI" hardware is not the issue. The only thing the FDA can really freak about is e-liquid. The metal is inert.
If the FDA tries to entrench for the long haul, the best they can do is make the liquid illegal. The gear will go the way of pot paraphernalia. There will be lots of PV head shops where you can get hardware (e-cigs, e-pipes, etc.), but getting the juice will be all backalley and "Psst! Hey buddy.. ..wanna buy some nic-liq?"
I'm not worried about being able to get atomizers and batteries. I'm worried about bathtub juice and floozies.
Wait.. ..that doesn't actually sound bad.
j/k
It's all bad.
If the FDA tries to entrench for the long haul, the best they can do is make the liquid illegal. The gear will go the way of pot paraphernalia. There will be lots of PV head shops where you can get hardware (e-cigs, e-pipes, etc.), but getting the juice will be all backalley and "Psst! Hey buddy.. ..wanna buy some nic-liq?"
I'm not worried about being able to get atomizers and batteries. I'm worried about bathtub juice and floozies.
Wait.. ..that doesn't actually sound bad.
j/k
It's all bad.
"E-cig" / "PV" / "NI" hardware is not the issue. The only thing the FDA can really freak about is e-liquid. The metal is inert.
If the FDA tries to entrench for the long haul, the best they can do is make the liquid illegal. The gear will go the way of pot paraphernalia. There will be lots of PV head shops where you can get hardware (e-cigs, e-pipes, etc.), but getting the juice will be all backalley and "Psst! Hey buddy.. ..wanna buy some nic-liq?"
I'm not worried about being able to get atomizers and batteries. I'm worried about bathtub juice and floozies.
Wait.. ..that doesn't actually sound bad.
j/k
It's all bad.
Not true, as has been established on the forum many, many times. E-cig hardware can and will be outlawed.
And besides, this is about more than a few e-cigarette afficionados who already know the benefits and will continue to go out of their way for supplies.
What of all the people who don't yet know about e-cigs, or feel they're not up to much? They're not going to bother. Many people here believe that e-cigs are the potential single biggest health improvement the world has seen for years - that's what this is about.
SJ
Information on the Prescription Nicotrol Inhaler (which FDA has KEPT as a prescription drug, long after patches, gum, and lozenges became available OTC):
"Most successful patients in the clinical trials used between 6 and 16 cartridges a day." (Nicotrol (Nicotine Inhalation System) Drug Information: Uses, Side Effects, Drug Interactions and Warnings at RxList)
Cost for kit with 168 cartridges: $203
Brings the daily cost to between $7.25 and $19.33
I know I sure don't spend that much on vaping, even including all the backups on batteries and atomizers that I have on hand.
Oh, and how much time and cost to bring the new prescription e-cigarette to market?
PERO: Your Cheerios prescription - Washington Times
Ruyan doesn't have that kind of money, and I doubt that JoyeTech does either. Bottom line is may not happen at all. They will just be gone.
River, I have respected and valued your comments where I have seen them before, in other threads, but I don't necessarily agree with your stance here. With the way things are set up now in the FDA, our options are limited, and include the following at this time:
1. Allow the PVs to be regulated as a drug/device combination, and a de facto ban will be the result. This is what the FDA is trying to push for at this time. The only thing stopping them is the push-back from suppliers in the courts, where this is currently in the process of being decided.
2. Allow the PVs to be regulated as a tobacco product. This will ensure the availability of the devices, and will not automatically limit your choice of flavorings, nor will it automatically ensure taxation. These two topics will probably come up, and will have to be fought for, in much the same way we are fighting to keep them available right now.
The development of a third option, specific to these recreational devices, would be backed by everyone here, but it just isn't going to be possible at this time. It's like jumping out of an airplane: you can either do nothing and hit the ground, pull the cord and release your parachute, or wish really, really, really hard that you grow wings and fly away. While we may (however unlikely) evolve wings over a long period of time, for now it will cause this third option to have no difference in outcome from the first option.
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Put the ban in place, without an actual ban on anything you cannot get vapings status legally clarified.
Just out of curiosity where did all this chicken little the sky is falling bs come from?
I'm away for 2 or 3 days and come back to find all my strong willed peeps running in circles and ready to pull a Neville Chamberlin.
I'm looking around and seeing no special legal threats to vapings status other than what is still being wrangled in fda vs. se.
Did I miss some imminent threat? Not counting this petition of course.
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THEY CAN AND MOST LIKE WILL BAN THE DEVICE ITSELF
The comparisons to drug paraphernalia are simply wrongheaded. They can get rid of bongs and pipes anytime they want. All it takes is for someone to care enough to do so. They did it right here where I live. The swept through the city and confiscated all such paraphernalia from all the tobacco shops, the head shops, and any other shops.
Don't think for one minute that the money and power behind crushing electronic cigarettes will NOT make sure that someone cares enough to remove them completely. It is almost impossible to imagine that they will turn their heads like they do with bongs and pipes.
The comparisons to drug paraphernalia are simply wrongheaded. They can get rid of bongs and pipes anytime they want. All it takes is for someone to care enough to do so. They did it right here where I live. The swept through the city and confiscated all such paraphernalia from all the tobacco shops, the head shops, and any other shops.
Don't think for one minute that the money and power behind crushing electronic cigarettes will NOT make sure that someone cares enough to remove them completely. It is almost impossible to imagine that they will turn their heads like they do with bongs and pipes.
I've been out of the loop. What special circumsances have come up that makes this something we are dealing with right now?
I feel if there are no changes in fda vs se then why are we hopping around trying to push something sooner than we need to?
The petitions are simply an attempt to get the FDA to change their tune.
Deleted because...
Dark humor and sarcasm is a foreign language to others
Dark humor and sarcasm is a foreign language to others
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The FDA has already promised (if they haven't begun the process yet) to appeal the injunction won by SE and NJOY. The issue has not yet gone to trial. I believe this is the long and short of it, even if I messed up a few technical terms here -- I'm no fancy, big-city lawyer.
It is far easier to sway opinion on a subject not yet defined by the laws of man than it is to change legal precedent. We will have a legal precedent from this whether we like it or not, and there will be one of two outcomes. Either the FDA will regulate it as a drug/device, or they will not be allowed to do so. While the latter does mean it will have to be handled as a tobacco product for now, it leaves a door open to try to push for a third classification of non-tobacco recreational nicotine device.
One more time.
If you allow them to go the route of "drug delivery device," instead of tobacco product, there will be NOTHING. Not even "overseas" 555.
At least as a tobacoo product, there is a better chance that local liquid makers and vendors will have a business of some kind. Allow the FDA to classify them as a drug device and all of those local business will be SOL, because they would be required to do expensive testing that most couldn't afford.
I use only nhaler liquid - made in the USA. If I don't vote for tobacco product, Drew doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of staying in business.
Once the PVs are safely categorized as tobacco products, we start lobbying for a new tobacco product category - "reduced harm." But once PVs are defined as drug devices, they'll be lost forever as "drugs."
You are so far off base it's scary. What you want to do would cause more harm to the U.S. PV companies and PV affordability than being classified as a TP would do!!
Yeah but, another reason why I quit smoking was because I couldn't afford it anymore due to taxes. I switched to roll-your-own and then BAM, they jacked up taxes on that too! I switched to a PV and now it faces the same fate. I see a pattern here. If I didn't know any better I'd say somebody is following me around. So maybe it's my fault... LOL ... I'm a jinx!
Wait a minute... Did you say "prescription"?... You know, that would be so bad, if it really happened. My insurance would pay for it. $4.00 for a month's supply of PV sounds great! Only problem is I bet it wouldn't be the strength I want, and I bet the quality would suck. And, we would have to wait for it to happen. If the delivery hardware was still good enough, I can still picture myself getting black market juice and accessing the sealed carts. When the doctor asks, "So, how are you doing with the new system." I'd be like, "I'm doing GREAT. It's working fantastic. I just need supplies for 3 more months." - Meanwhile, unbeknownst to the doc, I've got a ghetto hot rod PV at the house... bwah bwah bwah. My horns just grew!
Oh wait, what's that? I have to bring it in to the doctors office for inspection? Okay, I'll just bring in the one I don't use. Vape on it from time to time to make it look used. Throw it around a little to get some "scratches of use" on it too.... bwah bwah bwah.
Doc might say, "Okay, how do you feel about stepping down to a lower nic this month?"... Boy will I drag that one out with, "Not so sure about that yet doc. I don't think I'm ready. Maybe next month."... bwah bwah bwah.
Then the blood analysis come in. It shows my nic level is higher than what my prescription is capable of.... Oh crap! Busted!
You and a few others have made it quite clear that all you people care about is yourselves and your situation.
A lot of insurance companies do NOT cover smoking cessation.
And a majority of people started PVs for the health benefits, not the costs.
I'm willing to pay more to have the luxury of seeing my 3 year old daughter grow up.
And there are millions of smokers out there who haven't even held a PV and don't know about dripping and mods and whatnot. What about them? What options willl they have if these become perscription?
I wager the majority of smokers and vapers don't want to live like potheads, using illegal, homemade juice and devices. We should be able to legally use a legal substance without sneaking around and hookwinking doctors.
And if you think taxes would make vaping expensive, just wait until the pharma companies get their hands on it. Nitotrol is way more expensive than cigarettes.
How about looking a little beyond your own little world a bit more?
Not sure why you call it a lie.
The fact is, the nicotine juice is made from tobacco.
It can realistically only be made from tobacco.
Any method of making or extracting nicotine, other than from tobacco, is cost prohibitive.
Yes, there are some people who have gone to zero nicotine.
But that is a small percentage, and clearly not the purpose of the device.
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